the tribulation of those days, Matthew 24:29

Douggg said:

Hi Maria,

These things did not happen in 70 AD. They are end times events at the end of the great tribulation.

Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

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These things did happen and they are done. It was proclaimed by Jesus Christ of Nazareth. "This generation shall not pass until all has been fulfilled."

Douggg said: ↑
Background Matthew 24:29 previews the first verses of the sixth seal. Matthew 24:29 > Revelation 6:12-14.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

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Maria Billingsley said:

Matthew 24:29 is describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. The apocalyptic reference is typical of God's judgment on Israel. You can read it over and over in the Old Testament. This is no different.
Blessings

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Douggg said: ↑
Hi Maria,
These things did not happen in 70 AD. They are end times events at the end of the great tribulation.

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Maria Billingsley said:

These things did happen and they are done. It was proclaimed by Jesus Christ of Nazareth. "This generation shall not pass until all has been fulfilled."

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parousia70 said:

How Long Is "Immediately" to God?
100 years?
50?
10?
If 1000 years is as a Day to God, then 10 years is is about 24 minutes to God.
Would 24 minutes count as Immediately to God?
What about 5 years... that would be 12 Minutes to God...

If these events began exactly 12 minutes after the tribulation of those days, would you say that fulfilled the requirement of "immediately"?
I would.
So, I would say 5 years after the tribulation of those days certainly qualifies as Immediately in Gods view of Time.

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Yes indeed.

"THIS GENERATION" in Bible


Mat 23:36
“Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Luk 11:50
“that the blood of all the prophets which was shed from the foundation of the world may be required of this generation,
Luk 17:25
“But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Act 2:40
And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”
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Let's take a look at the word Jesus uses in that verse:

Matthew 24:29 Immediately<2112> after the tribulation of those days.........

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

2112. eutheos yoo-theh'-oce adverb from 2117; directly, i.e. at once or soon:--anon, as soon as, forthwith, immediately, shortly, straightway.
2117. euthus yoo-thoos' perhaps from 2095 and 5087; straight, i.e. (literally) level, or (figuratively) true; adverbially (of time) at once:--anon, by and by, forthwith, immediately, straightway.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days.--From this point onwards the prophecy takes a wider range, and passes beyond the narrow limits of the destruction of Jerusalem to the final coming of the Son of Man, and the one is represented as following "immediately" on the other. No other meaning could have been found in the words when they were first heard or read. The "days" of this verse are those which were shortened "for the elect's sake" (Matthew 24:22). The "tribulation" can be none other than that of Matthew 24:21, which was emphatically connected with the flight of men from the beleaguered city. The language of St. Mark, "in those days, after that tribulation," followed by a description of the second Advent identical in substance with St. Matthew's, brings the two events, if possible, into yet closer juxtaposition. How are we to explain the fact that already more than eighteen centuries have rolled away, and "the promise of His coming" still tarries?
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Meyer's NT Commentary
Matthew 24:29. Here follows the second portion of the reply of Jesus, in which He intimates what events, following at once on the destruction of Jerusalem, are immediately to precede His second coming (Matthew 24:29-33); mentioning at the same time, that however near and certain this latter may be, yet the day and hour of its occurrence cannot be determined, and that it will break unexpectedly upon the world (Matthew 24:34-41); this should certainly awaken men to watchfulness and preparedness (Matthew 24:42-51), to which end the two parables, Matthew 25:1-30, are intended to contribute. The discourse then concludes with a description of the final judgment over which the coming one is to preside (Matthew 25:31-46).

εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τ. θλίψιν τῶν ἡμερ. ἐκ.] but immediately after the distress of those days, immediately after the last (τὸ τέλος) of the series of Messianic woes described from Matthew 24:15 onwards, and the first of which is to be coincident with the destruction of the temple. For τῶν ἡμερ. ἐκείνων, comp. Matthew 24:19; Matthew 24:22; and for θλίψιν, Matthew 24:21. Ebrard’s explanation of this passage falls to the ground with his erroneous interpretation of Matthew 24:23-24, that explanation being as follows: immediately after the unhappy condition of the church (Matthew 24:23-28), a condition which is to continue after the destruction of Jerusalem,—it being assumed that the εὐθέως involves the meaning: “nullis aliis intercedentibus indiciis.”
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Expositor's Greek Testament
Matthew 24:29-31. The coming of the Son of Man (Mark 13:24-27, Luke 21:25-28).—Thus far the eschatological discourse has been found to bear on the predicted tragic end of Jerusalem. At this point the παρουσία, which, according to the evangelist, was one of the subjects on which the disciples desired information, becomes the theme of discourse.
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Bengel's Gnomen
Matthew 24:29. Εὐθέως δὲ μετὰ τὴν θλίψιν τῶν ἡμερῶν ἐκείνων, κ.τ.λ., but immediately after the affliction of those days, etc.) There are four things to be observed in this passage. (1) Our Lord speaks of the sun being literally darkened, etc. And this phrase frequently occurs in the prophets, concerning the destruction of a nation, and in such cases has a much more literal force than is generally supposed, for where there is a great destruction of men, the beholders of the sun are reduced to a small number; but much more in the present passage has it a literal force, for the whole of our Lord’s language on this occasion is strictly literal; therefore this verse must be also understood literally. (2) The tribulation indicated will be that of the Jewish people, and that for one generation, (3) It is not said, after that tribulation, nor after those days, but after the tribulation of those days, as in Mark 13:24.—ἐν ἐκείναις ταῖς ἡμέραις μετὰ τὴν θλίψιν ἐκείνην, in those days, after that tribulation. The term, “those days,” refers to Matthew 24:22; Matthew 24:19; and it is indicated that the tribulation will not be long, but brief in duration; Matthew 24:21-22; Matthew 24:34. (4) The expression, εὐθέως, quickly (cito), implies a very short delay, since οὔπω, not yet (Matthew 24:6) i.e., οὐκ εὐθέως, not quickly (Luke 21:9), is said of the short delay which must precede that tribulation; nay, the passage already cited from St Mark excludes delay altogether. The Engl. Vers. has “immediately.” You will say, it is a great leap from the destruction of Jerusalem to the end of the world, which is represented as coming quickly after it. I reply
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Eutheos............

random person said:

In Matthew 24:29, Jesus said, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" the Son of Man would come in power and great glory, and, "he will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to another" (Matthew 24:31). Simply stated, the gathering at the sound of the trump is nothing less than the resurrection! (C.f. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

Notice the complex of events, the Abomination, the Tribulation, parousia, the gathering of the elect. It should be noted that the parousia and gathering of the elect (the resurrection), would come "immediately after" the Tribulation. Many commentators try to say there is a disjunction here, and that all Jesus was saying is that at some point in the future, the parousia would occur. Or, it is claimed that the "immediately after" simply means "the next thing on the prophetic agenda, regardless of when it occurs."

This rather desperate attempt at exegesis fails on grammatical grounds, as well as contextual. The word translated as immediately, is eutheos (Εὐθέως). This is the word that is used the most often to describe the effect of Jesus' healing miracles. The healing always took place "immediately," and that does not mean that the person eventually got better! They were healed, instantly. The only reason that anyone suggested that "immediately" in Matthew 24:29 does not have temporal significance is because of what they perceive as a failed prediction. In other words, their literalistic concept of what Jesus predicted did not happen immediately, therefore, rather than honor the normal, consistent definition and use of the word, they completely redefine the word. This is unjustified, and should be rejected.

The parallels between Daniel and the Olivet Discourse are direct and precise. Daniel 9 foretold the death of Messiah, the Abomination of Desolation, which of course would lead to the Tribulation and the destruction of Jerusalem, and the consummation of the seventy weeks. The consummation of the seventy weeks would be kingdom and resurrection, the salvation of Israel.

Although the death of Jesus is not specifically mentioned in Matthew 24, it lies behind the text nonetheless. We then find the Abomination, the Tribulation, the parousia and the gathering of the elect. Jesus emphatically posited all of those things for his generation (v. 34).

Daniel 7 and the Discourse are also parallel. Daniel's prediction is focused on the days of the fourth kingdom, i.e. Rome. The Little Horn persecutes the saints. The Son of Man comes in judgment of the persecutor, vindicating the saints, and delivering the kingdom to them.

In the Olivet Discourse, which Jesus said would be fulfilled in his generation (during the days of the Roman empire!), Jesus predicted the persecution of the saints (Matthew 24:9f). The persecutor however, is identified as the nation of Israel. Jesus foretold the Abomination of Desolation, the Tribulation, followed by his coming on the clouds of heaven in vindication of the saints. This would be the time of the kingdom (Luke 21:28-31).

Daniel 12 contains identical motifs. We find the Abomination of Desolation (12:11), the time of tribulation (12:1), the deliverance of the saints (12:1), the time of the end (12:4) and the time of the kingdom (12:3). Significantly, Daniel was told that the final fulfillment of his vision would be when Israel was completely destroyed (12:7, matching Daniel 9:27 perfectly), and Jesus said that his prediction would be fulfilled in the destruction of Jerusalem in his generation. The dove-tailing of these details is no mere coincidence, and should not be ignored. Daniel posits the Tribulation in the context of Israel's judgment and last days, and Jesus does as well.

Our study of Daniel, the Tribulation, the resurrection, and thus, of course, the Day of the Lord, has demonstrated that not only does the Tribulation belong to Israel and her last days, but, the Tribulation was to be an immediate precursor and sign of the resurrection and kingdom. The fact that not only Daniel, but, Jesus and the N.T. said that the Tribulation was to occur in the first century generation is prima facie proof that the parousia and the resurrection was to occur in that same generation.

Don K Preston

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Douggg said:

Hi Maria,

These things did not happen in 70 AD. They are end times events at the end of the great tribulation.

Matthew 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

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Rather they did, As Maria Correctly Pointed out:

Maria Billingsley said:

Matthew 24:29 is describing the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad. The apocalyptic reference is typical of God's judgment on Israel. You can read it over and over in the Old Testament. This is no different.
Blessings

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She is absolutely Correct.. you can read it OVER AND OVER AND OVER in the Old Testament. THIS IS NO DIFFERENT.

Only when you flat out ignore the precedent set in the OT for the usage of this language could you arrive at the conclusion these things did NOT happen then.

Yahweh's various day-of-the-Lord judgments were signaled by the prophets with common apocalyptic language that consists of common apocalyptic idioms and metaphoric doom language. See these fulfilled prophecies and note the common apocalyptic metaphors in each:

*Micah 1:1-9 -- Assyrian conquest of Samaria and Jerusalem
*Nahum 1:1-8 -- Nineveh's doom
*Zephaniah 1:1-10,14-18 -- Judgment against Judah
*2 Samuel 22:8-16 -- the destruction of Saul's kingdom
*Ezekiel 32:1-12 -- Judgment against Egypt by Babylon

In each of these fulfilled passages, we read all of the common apocalyptic metaphors to describe Jehovah's comings:

*the destruction of earth
*the bowing of the heavens
*the melting of the mountains like wax
*the blackening of the sun, moon, and stars
*the wiping away of every living thing
*blood as high as the mountains
*the burning of the earth and all that dwell in it (at His presence)
*Etc. etc.

This is known as APOCALYPTIC LANGUAGE, which is used by the prophets to foretell the downfall of nations and individuals by God in history. It is uniquely apocalyptic and hyperbolic in nature. So also Christ, being of this well-known prophetic tradition, used the same apocalyptic language to foretell the downfall of Israel at her greatest Day of the Lord judgment at AD 66-70 (e.g., compare Matthew 24:29-30 to Isaiah 13:10-11 concerning Babylon and Ezekiel 32:7-8 concerning Nebuchadnezzar and Egypt.)

We have no scriptural instruction to interpret the OT phrases "God rides a swift cloud" and was "seen by the eyes of All Nations" as Metaphor in the OT, yet apply a polar opposite, Hyper-Literal interpretation to the Near verbatim NT phrase "He is coming on the clouds and every eye shall see"

We have no scriptural instruction to interpret this OT prophesy about the Ancient Assyrian conquest of Jerusalem and Samaria as Metaphor:
The mountains will melt under Him,
And the valleys will split
Like wax before the fire,
Like waters poured down a steep place.

Yet interpret this NT prophesy "Hyper-Literally":
Revelation
16:20 Then every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Revelation 1:7's "he comes with clouds" and Matt 26:64's "hereafter you [Caiaphas] shall see the son of man...coming in the clouds of heaven" ARE THE SAME EVENT AS Revelation 14:14-20, which is clearly a depiction of a heavenly visitation, not some physical appearing in cumulus clouds. Read that Revelation 14:14-20 passage to see that ST. John is not thinking of a physical event in the skies overhead, but of an event in the heavenly realms. This was fulfilled in the Day of the Lord against Israel in AD 67-70 when Christ the Stone--the Lord of the Vineyard--came in their generation, and did grind them to powder as foretold (Matt 21:40-45; Matt 23:34-38; Matt 24:33-34).

Douggg said:

Where in Revelation 6, the 6th seal verses are you reading anything about the Abomination of Desolation in those verses?

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Does the abomination cut off sacrifices or not?

At the start of the day of the lord, the locusts cut off the sacrifices. Same locusts in 5th trumpet as in Joel 1:4-12 that cut off the sacrifices.

Douggg said:

I ask you - Where in Revelation 6, the 6th seal verses are you reading anything about the Abomination of Desolation in those verses?

In order to back up your claim -
"There is the abomination (verse 15)
then the great tribulation starts (at the 6th Seal) (verse 21)"

Answer my question and then I will answer your question. I will tell you, the Abomination of Desolation is not in the text of the sixth seal verses. Just admit it. The great tribulation does not start at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

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You say you believe in an 'anytime' whisked away rapture (which really just means a pre-trib whisked away rapture), so here is where that would occur (but it is a physical gathering, not being whisked away)

Revelation 7:13-14
Either way, you believe in a pre-trib rapture right? Why? Because the faithful are kept from the 'great tribulation'

Revelation 2:20-23

The faithful are kept from the 'great tribulation' (Revelation 2:22)

The 'great multitude' of Revelation 7:14 are 'coming out of the great tribulation' - because it has just started!

Because the Day of the Lord's wrath was just announced in the 6th Seal. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Since we aren't appointed to wrath, we are 'gathered' out of it...

The Day of the Lord's wrath comes at the 6th Seal at Revelation 6:17 and the locusts come to cut off the sacrifices

Daniel 12

Seems pretty straightforward.

Oscarr said:

When I was younger, I was all into the Pentecostal side of things, and believed that we should strive to enter into the deeper spiritual life in the Spirit. But as my future in the world diminishes, then a lot of that has fallen away, and I have found myself getting right back to the basics, ie: trusting and being content in the finished work of Christ. This is because I have learned that my only qualification for getting to heaven is that Jesus died on the cross for me, and rose again to show that in the same way He rose from the dead to glory, so will I when the time comes. So I have worked me on getting my salvation and election sure and putting the other "deeper" spiritual stuff to one side because those things are just for this life, and making sure that I am well in the shadow of the cross is preparing me for eternity.

When we get into the presence of the Lord in eternity, we won't need churches, tongues, prophecy, theological degrees, leadership roles, and all the other trappings of the Christian religious life. All those things are fading away for me, but fellowship with the Lord is becoming stronger and I am much more content and peaceful in myself as I trust in just the promises in His Word for me.

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Sir, thank you for sharing this wisdom. It means a lot.

Douggg said:

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The stopping of the daily sacrifice is by an order to be given by the Antichrist. It is in the text of Daniel 8:11 Has nothing to do with the flesh tormenting locust.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
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The 'locusts' are the 'people of the prince to come' who cut off the daily sacrifices.

Daniel 9:26
The 'locusts' = Joel 1


Revelation 9:7-8

Douggg said:

It indicates in the text of Daniel 8:11, the Antichrist stops the daily sacrifice.

The locust are released out of the bottomless pit.

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Yes, what you call 'antichrist' is Apollyon. And his 'locusts' are the 'people of the prince to come'.

Revelation 9:11
They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

Douggg said:

There is no indication in the text that Apollyon is anything other than the angel of the bottomless pit, who is king over the flesh tormenting locust.

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oh

So what 'day of the Lord' is this? What army is this?
Joel 2

Douggg said:

Sounds like one or several of the plagues the two witnesses call in Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

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And where are the 2 witnesses on your chart?

2ndly, why do you put the 'great tribulation' 1290 days after the abomination? The 'great tribulation' is the 'tribulation of those days'.

The abomination of desolation occurs and the people of Judea have to flee immediately. These people who are fleeing have to do it before the 'winter, Sabbath' day because that is the start of the 'great tribulation'. They've got to get to the mountains before the 'great tribulation' comes. 1290 days would give these people a great amount of time to leisurely get supplies, check their email, go to work as usual - basically, they would forget the abomination even exists for 3.5 years.

Is that what Jesus is describing? No! These people have less than a week to get to the mountains! Leave your cloak behind! Leave your house and everything in it or you will die. That is the 'great tribulation' which is immediately after the abomination.

Matt 24

tranquil said:

Yes, what you call 'antichrist' is Apollyon. And his 'locusts' are the 'people of the prince to come'.

Revelation 9:11
They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.

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The locust signifies Famine as does Revelation 6:6 and Revelation 9:6 concerning the famine in 70AD Jerusalem.....

The Jewish Rebels burnt storehouse of food and thus let to a greater famine than would have occurred otherwise when the Roman army sieged Jerusalem in 70AD.

Dan 8:23
“In the latter part of their reign, when rebels have become completely wicked, a fierce-looking king, a master of intrigue, will arise.

Eze 20:38
“I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.

Hos 5:2
The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.

And they were indeed purged from Jerusalem in 70ad........


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury.
The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city. The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear ; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity :- nothing was to be heard but "the confused noise of the warrior, " -- nothing to be seen but garments rolled in blood," -- nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance.


.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;........
While famine continued thus to spread its destructive rage through the city, the Romans, after many ineffectual attempts, at length succeeded in demolishing part of the inner wall, possessed themselves of the great tower of Antonia, and advanced towards the Temple, which Titus, in a council of war had determined to preserve as an ornament to the empire,
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Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".

Revelation 9:6
And in those days the men shall seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

Revelation 18:8
“Thru this shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and mourning<3997> and famine<3042>
And in fire She shall be being burned, for strong is the Lord God the One judging Her.
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