If Perchance Catholicism Is Mistaken

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At Luke 7:40-50, an interesting incident in the Lord's life is told.

A common courtesy extended to guests in people's homes back in Jesus' day was to offer them some water to wash their feet, give them a kiss of greeting, and a dollop of lotion for their hair. I don't know what the problem was, but Jesus' host denied him that whole routine.

One of the common courtesies in our day is that of extending our condolences to someone who's lost a loved one.

Well; I've posted this same topic on several forums across the internet and it's curious to me that so few Christians expressed the slightest sympathy for my loss; which is just common courtesy even among the heathen.

Back in 1997 when we first went online, a man on the old Excite message boards warned me that forums are the armpit of the internet. Turns out he was right. It's a cruel world out here in cyberspace. The internet is a risky place to share one's personal feelings. It's pretty badly infested with heartless critics and thoughtless clods.

Incidentally, the dinner host was a Pharisee. It's interesting that Jesus got more respect from common folk than he did from the religious elite. What is there to be proud of in affiliation with the one true religion when one's sensitivities are those of a beast?
_
 
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Anthony Edgar

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It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church.
So, your brother loved Jesus and devoted his life to serving what he honestly believed was the Church Jesus founded - but God sent him to hell anyway? What a mean God you have there!
 
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ViaCrucis

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The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church.

Exactly why would your brother be in hell for being Christ's minister?

Would being a Baptist minister place one in hell if Baptist theology was incorrect?

That's kind of a silly idea, isn't it?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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If perchance Rome's interpretation of Phil 2:12 is mistaken; then none of my deceased brother's 53 years of work as a Priest/Friar will count towards earning him a spot in heaven.
_

Would it invalidate Christ and His Gospel? The answer should be a very obvious no.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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WebersHome

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If perchance Rome's interpretation of Phil 2:12 is mistaken; then none of my deceased brother's 53 years of work as a Priest/Friar will count towards earning him a spot in heaven.

Rome's interpretation of that passage pretty much echoes Santa Claus' holiday practices. For example the lyrics from the classic jingle: Santa Claus Is Coming To Town.

You better watch out, you better not cry,
Better not pout, I'm telling you why:
Santa Claus is coming to town

He's making a list, and checking it twice;
Gonna find out who's naughty and nice:
Santa Claus is coming to town.

He sees you when you're sleeping,
He knows when you're awake,
He knows if you've been bad or good,
So be good for goodness sake!

There's no grace in that song-- none at all --no generosity, no altruism, no kindness, no charity, no love, no peace, no understanding, no sympathy, no patience, no tolerance, no courtesy, no compassion, no forgiveness, viz: there are no gifts in Santa's bag; only merit awards for those who prove themselves worthy enough to deserve them.

But we know from other passages that an exemption from the sum of all fears isn't a merit award, rather; it's a totally free-of-charge rescue from the wrath of God by means of the ransom that Christ himself paid with his own life's blood rather than out of the sinner's pockets, so to speak. In point of fact the Greek word soteria, from which is translated "salvation" means rescue, i.e. remove from peril.

But now once the sinner is removed from the peril of the sum of all fears, he's expected to begin developing a life of piety (a.k.a. holiness) which serves an altogether different purpose in the plan of salvation than escaping the wrath of God.

The phrase "fear and trembling" was one of Paul's favorite colloquialisms; for example:

1Cor 2:3-4 . . For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling.

And another:

Eph 6:5-8 . . Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; not with eye-service, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, with goodwill doing service, as to The Lord, and not to men

"fear, and in trembling" doesn't mean Paul recommends shivering in terror and anxiety like a frightened gerbil; but that a believer's attitude should be free of pride, arrogance, and conceit, i.e. free of a superiority complex and/or a master-race mentality; for example:

Paul was very courteous to the Corinthians, and made himself of no reputation at all, even though he was one of The Lord's hand-picked apostles and they were a bunch of pagan heathens at the time who deserved nothing but the cold shoulder. Paul's attitude rubbed off on the Corinthians because they in turn deferred to Paul's associates with fear and trembling just as he had treated them all at one time.

2Cor 7:14-15 . . I had boasted to [Titus] about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well. And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling.

So then, what we're talking about here with "fear and trembling" is honor, respect, submission, deference, and reverence rather than terror and anxiety; and it's actually one of the Beatitudes.

Matt 5:3 . . Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

One of the basic components of "poor in spirit" is courtesy; which is grossly lacking on many of today's forums. People on the internet are just too cruel to each other; even people wearing the Christian label. Apparently what they don't know is that their behavior reflects on Christ and makes him look bad.

Take for example David's tryst with Bathsheba that resulted in the death of her husband. Nathan the prophet informed David that his conduct reflected on The Lord so that instead of bringing glory to God, his conduct brought disgrace. (2Sam 12:14)

Matt 5:16 . . Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
_
 
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BobRyan

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Supposing Rome's version of Christianity is mistaken? (This is only a hypothetical question; I'm not alleging Rome is mistaken.) The ramifications of that would be too awful to contemplate. It would mean that my deceased brother is right now, this very moment, in Hell regardless of the quality and the extent of his devotion to The Church.

would it??

Are you of the opinion that all Christian denominations that have any doctrinal error in them result in all of their members doomed to hell? (The RCC used to teach something like that about Christians that opposed the RCC outside-of-the-RCC etc... but since then I think even the RCC has abandoned that POV)

If so you are the first person on this board that I have found to promote that idea.
 
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WebersHome

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One of the Church's earliest official proclamations regarding a purgatory was Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.

In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin; consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and purification.

I'm sure it can be seen right off just how essential it would be for souls in a purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they weren't, then Rome’s promise in CCC.1030, of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians, would be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while interred in a purgatory would add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never be released.

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The Mount and all the beatitudes.

One of the things that I would really appreciate in Leo's purgatory is civility. I've participated on better than thirty Christian internet forums beginning in 1997, and one of the things I've noticed is that too many people wearing the Christian label have forgotten all about turning the other cheek. Oh m' gosh you wouldn't believe how ugly, spiteful, and vindictive Christians can be when they put their minds to it!

In Leo's purgatory; there's no cruelty of any kind; for example dishonesty, malicious gossip, demeaning comments, thoughtless remarks, name-calling, toxic rejoinders, discourtesy, chafing, quarrelling, bickering, mockery, relentless ridicule,

. . . fault-finding, nit picking, spite, rivalry, carping, bullying, heckling, intimidation, wiseacre retorts, needling, taunting, biting sarcasm, petty ill will, yelling, ugly insinuations, cold-shouldering, calculated insults, snobbery, elitism, arrogance, subterfuge, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, etc, etc, et al, and ad nauseam.

If Leo is correct. then we can expect that all the Christian virtues, every one of them, are being exemplified 24/7/365 in purgatory.

However, if Leo's Bull is full of bull, then I think we can reasonably expect purgatory's social environment to be little different than what we're accustomed.

Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is not all that easy to attain. According to the Catechism, CCC 1035, Catholics are just inches from the worst. Should it happen that they leave this life with just one non absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in a half-way house. No, their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful Catholic for 49 years, they will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist. All their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the record and count for naught.


FAQ: Does the Bible teach the existence of a purgatory?

A: Though there are numerous passages in the Bible that allude-- i.e. suggest --the possibility; all such passages are indirect references rather than obvious, clear-cut, black and white teachings; ergo: there's a very good chance that purgatory is the product of human reasoning and a fertile imagination.

However, passages that suggest one thing, can also be made to suggest another, so I do not recommend putting too much stock in Rome's ideas. It is much safer to assume the worst, and then begin preparing yourself for it in the event that purgatory turns out to be a huge mistake, viz: just as there are no second place winners in a gunfight, it just might be there are no second place winners in matters related to Heaven and Hell.
_
 
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bbbbbbb

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One of the Church's earliest official proclamations regarding a purgatory was Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine. In the year 1520 he stated, along with some other things, that death is the termination not of nature but of sin, and this inability to sin makes [purgatorial souls] secure of final happiness.

In other words: according to Leo X, the occupants of a purgatory are unable to sin; consequently they won't commit any new sins while undergoing discipline and purification.

I'm sure it can be seen right off just how essential it would be for souls in a purgatory to be incapable of sinning, because if they weren't, then Rome’s promise in CCC.1030, of an assured eternal salvation for purgatorians, would be a tenuous guarantee indeed since each new sin committed while interred in a purgatory would add time to the penitent’s original sentence; with the very real possibility of potentially snow-balling to the point where they would never be released.

If Pope Leo X's Bull of Exurge Domine is correct as regards the absence of sin in purgatory then I would have to conclude that it's a very peaceful place seeing as how everyone in residence there would be complying with the Sermon On The Mount and all the beatitudes.

One of the things that I would really appreciate in Leo's purgatory is civility. I've participated on better than thirty Christian internet forums beginning in 1997, and one of the things I've noticed is that too many people wearing the Christian label have forgotten all about turning the other cheek. Oh m' gosh you wouldn't believe how ugly, spiteful, and vindictive Christians can be when they put their minds to it!

In Leo's purgatory; there's no cruelty of any kind; for example dishonesty, malicious gossip, demeaning comments, thoughtless remarks, name-calling, toxic rejoinders, discourtesy, chafing, quarrelling, bickering, mockery, relentless ridicule,

. . . fault-finding, nit picking, spite, rivalry, carping, bullying, heckling, intimidation, wiseacre retorts, needling, taunting, biting sarcasm, petty ill will, yelling, ugly insinuations, cold-shouldering, calculated insults, snobbery, elitism, arrogance, subterfuge, antisocial behaviors, sociopaths, crime, war, despotism, oppression, injustice, human rights abuses, character assassination, etc, etc, et al, and ad nauseam.

If Leo is correct. then we can expect that all the Christian virtues, every one of them, are being exemplified 24/7/365 in purgatory.

However, if Leo's Bull is full of bull, then I think we can reasonably expect purgatory's social environment to be little different than what we're accustomed.

Most Catholics regard purgatory as a safety net whence they will be taken in the event they fail to sufficiently measure up to God's standards. However, purgatory is not all that easy to attain. According to the Catechism, CCC 1035, Catholics are just inches from the worst. Should it happen that they leave this life with just one non absolved mortal sin on the books, just one, they go directly to Hell; no stop-over in a half-way house. No, their trip is a direct flight. Even if they've been a faithful Catholic for 49 years, they will miss the boat just as if they had been a Hindu, or a Muslim, or an atheist. All their years as a faithful Catholic will be stricken from the record and count for naught.


FAQ: Does the Bible teach the existence of a purgatory?

A: Though there are numerous passages in the Bible that allude-- i.e. suggest --the possibility; all such passages are indirect references rather than obvious, clear-cut, black and white teachings; ergo: there's a very good chance that purgatory is the product of human reasoning and a fertile imagination.

However, passages that suggest one thing, can also be made to suggest another, so I do not recommend putting too much stock in Rome's ideas. It is much safer to assume the worst, and then begin preparing yourself for it in the event that purgatory turns out to be a huge mistake, viz: just as there are no second place winners in a gunfight, it just might be there are no second place winners in matters related to Heaven and Hell.
_

The amazing thing regarding various mortal sins is that skipping mass on Sunday is a mortal sin. On the face of it, it would seem a simple sin to avoid, but tens (if not hundreds) of millions of Catholics commit this sin blatantly Sunday after Sunday. Thus, it seems that a very large proportion of Catholics are hurtling into hell.
 
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Major1

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would it??

Are you of the opinion that all Christian denominations that have any doctrinal error in them result in all of their members doomed to hell? (The RCC used to teach something like that about Christians that opposed the RCC outside-of-the-RCC etc... but since then I think even the RCC has abandoned that POV)

If so you are the first person on this board that I have found to promote that idea.

I agree...…….however, if a "Church denomination" teaches that salvation is in anything other that Jesus Christ, then YES, anyone who follows that doctrine will be doomed.
 
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BobRyan

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I agree...…….however, if a "Church denomination" teaches that salvation is in anything other that Jesus Christ, then YES, anyone who follows that doctrine will be doomed.

If you look across the denominations of Christianity you will see people in group-1 saying that the teaching in group-2 is "another gospel", "another jesus", etc. Lots of criticism from outside the group but almost no group saying of itself "we teach another Jesus, another Gospel, salvation through someone other than Jesus"

I am all for each person, each member in every group deciding that they will stand for nothing less than the best doctrine and the purest Gospel. But I doubt that what they select - will be agreed upon by all members of all other denominations.
 
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Major1

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If you look across the denominations of Christianity you will see people in group-1 saying that the teaching in group-2 is "another gospel", "another jesus", etc. Lots of criticism from outside the group but almost no group saying of itself "we teach another Jesus, another Gospel, salvation through someone other than Jesus"

I am all for each person, each member in every group deciding that they will stand for nothing less than the best doctrine and the purest Gospel. But I doubt that what they select - will be agreed upon by all members of all other denominations.

Sounds good.

The bottom line is that no matter what denomination a person is in, every single one of us will stand ALONE before the Lord Jesus Christ to give an account of what we have said and done in our lifetime.

Our denominational choice plays NO PART in that judgment. If anyone has anything other than Jesus Christ as the way to heaven, they will not enter heaven.

Some say that if we are "sincere" in what we believe we will be saved from the judgment.
Some say that if we do good deeds along with faith in Christ we will be saved.
Some say that if we accept the teachings of Joseph Smith we will be saved.
Some say that if we are baptized we will be saved.

Those are ALL denominational teachings which mean nothing.

The one and only way to be saved is to believe upon and accept the work of Christ to pay for our sins plus NOTHING!

Ephesians 2:8-9...……..
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

John 14:6..........
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
 
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Concord1968

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Sounds good.

The bottom line is that no matter what denomination a person is in, every single one of us will stand ALONE before the Lord Jesus Christ to give an account of what we have said and done in our lifetime.

Our denominational choice plays NO PART in that judgment. If anyone has anything other than Jesus Christ as the way to heaven, they will not enter heaven.

Some say that if we are "sincere" in what we believe we will be saved from the judgment.
Some say that if we do good deeds along with faith in Christ we will be saved.
Some say that if we accept the teachings of Joseph Smith we will be saved.
Some say that if we are baptized we will be saved.

Those are ALL denominational teachings which mean nothing.

The one and only way to be saved is to believe upon and accept the work of Christ to pay for our sins plus NOTHING!

Ephesians 2:8-9...……..
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

John 14:6..........
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
Was just going to post Ephesians 2:8-9, but you kindly beat me to it :)
 
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bbbbbbb

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Sounds good.

The bottom line is that no matter what denomination a person is in, every single one of us will stand ALONE before the Lord Jesus Christ to give an account of what we have said and done in our lifetime.

Our denominational choice plays NO PART in that judgment. If anyone has anything other than Jesus Christ as the way to heaven, they will not enter heaven.

Some say that if we are "sincere" in what we believe we will be saved from the judgment.
Some say that if we do good deeds along with faith in Christ we will be saved.
Some say that if we accept the teachings of Joseph Smith we will be saved.
Some say that if we are baptized we will be saved.

Those are ALL denominational teachings which mean nothing.

The one and only way to be saved is to believe upon and accept the work of Christ to pay for our sins plus NOTHING!

Ephesians 2:8-9...……..
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

John 14:6..........
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

:amen: :amen: :amen:
 
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BobRyan

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Sounds good.

The bottom line is that no matter what denomination a person is in, every single one of us will stand ALONE before the Lord Jesus Christ to give an account of what we have said and done in our lifetime.

Our denominational choice plays NO PART in that judgment. If anyone has anything other than Jesus Christ as the way to heaven, they will not enter heaven.

Some say that if we are "sincere" in what we believe we will be saved from the judgment.
Some say that if we do good deeds along with faith in Christ we will be saved.
Some say that if we accept the teachings of Joseph Smith we will be saved.
Some say that if we are baptized we will be saved.

Those are ALL denominational teachings which mean nothing.

The one and only way to be saved is to believe upon and accept the work of Christ to pay for our sins plus NOTHING!

Ephesians 2:8-9...……..
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

John 14:6..........
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

true - and as James 2 says even the demons "believe and tremble" the difference between saved/lost is on whether your "trust" in Christ is validated/proven in the fruit.. "not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter... but he who does..." Matthew 7.

Belief/faith that impacts the shoes .. the walk.. is the real deal according to James 2 and Romans 2 and Matthew 7
 
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bbbbbbb

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true - and as James 2 says even the demons "believe and tremble" the difference between saved/lost is on whether your "trust" in Christ is validated/proven in the fruit.. "not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter... but he who does..." Matthew 7.

Belief/faith that impacts the shoes .. the walk.. is the real deal according to James 2 and Romans 2 and Matthew 7

Absolutely. It really affected the repentant thief on the cross. Look at all the great works he did as a result of his faith.
 
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Major1

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true - and as James 2 says even the demons "believe and tremble" the difference between saved/lost is on whether your "trust" in Christ is validated/proven in the fruit.. "not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter... but he who does..." Matthew 7.

Belief/faith that impacts the shoes .. the walk.. is the real deal according to James 2 and Romans 2 and Matthew 7

Bob......I know you are not suggesting that we are involved in our salvation by doing something.

Yes, we allow Christ to live through us AFTER we are saved but that has nothing to do with staying saved.

Don't you agree?
 
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BobRyan

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Bob......I know you are not suggesting that we are involved in our salvation by doing something.

Yes, we allow Christ to live through us AFTER we are saved but that has nothing to do with staying saved.

Don't you agree?

I agree that God sovereignly "came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11

I agree with Romans 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

I agree with Rev 3
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne

I agree with Romans 2
Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

I agree with Christ in Matt 7
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

I agree with Paul in 1 Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

I agree with 2 Cor 5
0 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Rom 6:23 "the wages of sin is death"

I agree with Paul in Rom 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
 
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thomas15

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I don't think that any one of us can judge the heart like God can.

Exactly why would your brother be in hell for being Christ's minister?

Would being a Baptist minister place one in hell if Baptist theology was incorrect?

That's kind of a silly idea, isn't it?

-CryptoLutheran

Does the Baptist Minister proclaim that the act of being a Baptist minister gain one entrance into heaven?

Jesus said “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23

When asked by the philippian jailer, Paul instructed him to:
Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. And he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.”
Acts 16:29-31

The takeaway is that if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ you will be saved. Having said that I have a relative (inlaw) that goes to church services every day literally and is on staff. She is a fine person and performs many good deeds. When I asked her years ago at what age did she start trusting on the Lord Jesus, she got quite offended and reminded me of her many efforts with respect to church service. As a result it is unclear to me if she is, as Paul stated, saved.

Those who are in the ministry are held to a higher standard according to the NT. Still, if an individual is depending on X number of years of service to the church and not the savior that purchased salvation with His blood than I see storm clouds on the horizon.

In short it is hard to know the answer to the OP. The best we can do is know the savior for ourselves because at the end of the day we stand before the Lord to settle our personal accounts, not our friends and family.
 
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