Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

Hillsage said:

I think that whether it is "a real blessing" or a real cursing will become manifest on the day of judgment. For it is then that we will ALL know what works we've done while 'sticking together', will actually survive.

1Cor 3:13....for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

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Again, I really hate to correct you again but you are in error again. The judgment you speak of has nothing to do with how we perceive Universalism or the torments of hell as forever or not.

Universalism and Anialiationism is NOT an essential to the Christian faith.

We are saved by FAITH in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ who did to pay the penalty for our sins which is death. It is by Christs death, burial and resurrection that those who accept that work have their sins already judged and we stand "JUSTIFIED".

Romans 8:1...……..
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You do not have to worry about or insinuate that this old country boy's position another second my brother because I am just as saved as you are.

I am just blessed that you have found someone of like thinking on the forum so that you will not be lonely in discussion on this subject.

Oldmantook said:

Yes, unfortunately to this day the church has remained blinded by Augustine's misunderstanding and ignorance of the doctrine of apocatastasis. Augustine's legacy has left us with the "tragic news" instead of the Good News that God eventually reconciles all to himself. In Augustine's tragic news gospel, the vast majority of humankind is destined to be tortured forever in the lake of fire. It is impossible for reconciliation to occur under Augustine's punitive model of eternal conscious torment. Moreover, God is rendered impotent because although we claim He is omnipotent, He is unable to save all though his desire/will is to save all thus bringing into question his attribute of omnipotence. Or, we make God out to be a liar when His stated desire is to save all but despite that we claim He refuses to save all.
From David Burnfield's summary of our systematic theologies:
Calvinism
(God IS strong enough to save everyone) + (God DOES NOT want to save everyone) = Everyone IS NOT saved
Arminianism
(God IS NOT strong enough to save everyone) + (God DOES want to save everyone) = Everyone IS NOT saved
Universalism
(God IS strong enough to save everyone) + (God DOES want to save everyone) = Everyone IS saved

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Agreed. God does want all people to be saved. That is NOT a news flash to anyone!!!

2 Peter 3:9...………..
“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance”.

1 Timothy 2:4...……..
"who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth".

But the truth and context of the Scriptures DO NOT SAY THAT ALL PEOPLE WILL BE SAVED.

Matt. 25:46......….
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

If ALL people are going to be saved.....then who and where are those people in Matt. 25:46?

If eternal (aionion) life is indeed eternal (aionion), then eternal (aionion) punishment is also eternal (aionion).

Mark 3:28-29 ……...
"Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin".

Verse 28 says that all sins shall be forgiven. Then Verse 29 clarifies the statement and flatly says that there is a sin that "never has forgiveness."

Does God desire one thing and yet ordain another? Yes.

Yes, God can desire one thing and ordain another. For example, it is clear that God does not want people to sin, yet Acts 2:23 states, "this Man [Jesus], delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." God planned that Jesus go to the cross. But in order to do that, men had to sin for it to occur. Did God want them to sin? No, but it was part of God's ordained plan.

Likewise, Herod (Luke 23:11), Pilate (Luke 23:24) and the Jews (Luke 23:21) all sinned in their efforts that lead to Christ's death. Yet it says in Acts 4:27-28, "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur." It was not God's will that Herod, Pilate, and the Jews commit sin, but it was the will of God that this come to pass. God's ways are not ours. He is sovereign over all creation and can even use sinful men to accomplish His will.

Consider Pharaoh. God told Moses to command Pharaoh to let His people go (Exodus 8:1), yet God says in Exodus 4:21, ". . . but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go."
Source----1 Tim. 2:4, 2 Pet. 3:9, and Universalism | CARM.org

God wants ALL men to be saved.....BUT ALL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED!!!!

I am going to make this Crystal clear for all who hold to the Un-Biblical teaching of Universalism.

1. It is very clear from the Scriptures that all may be saved.

2. It is very clear from the Scriptures that all will not be saved.

3. It is very clear from the Scriptures some will be saved whom we did not expect to be saved.

4. It is very clear from the Scriptures others will not be saved who expected to be saved.

5. It is very clear from the Scriptures that no-one will be saved except in God’s way.

6. It is very clear from the Scriptures that there will be more people in hell than in heaven.

Oldmantook said:

It is your prerogative to be amazed. In your amazement, you just might learn something. As for your claim regarding Col 3:10-11, I think it is irrelevant as the "all" in that passage clearly does not mean "all" in the same sense as Col 1:19-20 refers to all. Just because the latter passage does not mean "all," it cannot be assumed that the former passage also does not mean "all."

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Of course you will have to say that. It is the only way to keep your un-biblical theology of Universalism in tact.

What matters is what God has revealed in His word. So, are there scriptures in the Bible that plainly state that not all are saved? Yes, there are.

• "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter by it. 14"For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it," (Matt. 7:13-14).
• "For many are called, but few are chosen," (Matt. 22:14).
• "And He was passing through from one city and village to another, teaching, and proceeding on His way to Jerusalem. 23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter by the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26"Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; depart from Me, all you evildoers,'" (Luke 13:22-27).
• "And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28for the Lord will execute His word upon the earth, thoroughly and quickly," (Rom. 9:27).

These verses are plain and clear. Not all are saved; in fact, few are. Whether or not we think this makes God a failure, or that it makes us sad, or upsets us, isn't really that important. If the Bible says it, that settles it. What is left is to make adjustments in our understanding and feelings in order to bring our thinking more in line with what God has stated.

After all, we do not know the mind of God. His ways are higher than our ways. I prefer to accept what it says than feel my way through theology.
Source----https://carm.org/scriptures-say-not-all-are-saved

Major1 said:

Again, I really hate to correct you again but you are in error again. The judgment you speak of has nothing to do with how we perceive Universalism or the torments of hell as forever or not.

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Correct me "AGAIN"? I beg to differ. I believe I'm still waiting for a 'first correction' that's acceptable.

Universalism and Anialiationism is NOT an essential to the Christian faith.

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Well at least we've got agreement on that point. Good for you.

We are saved by FAITH in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ who did to pay the penalty for our sins which is death. It is by Christs death, burial and resurrection that those who accept that work have their sins already judged and we stand "JUSTIFIED".

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Was the price for your sins paid for by the blood and death of Jesus 2,000 years ago? Or were they paid for by you accepting Him in faith today?

Explain to me why do we, TO THIS DAY call the apostle Thomas DOUBTING THOMAS? There was absolutely NO FAITH in Thomas, having Jesus standing before him in His resurrected body saying stick your hand in these two holes Thomas. And what did Jesus then say? Was it 'The only way to be saved is to accept by faith without seeing.'" Or did Jesus say "BLESSED are those who believe and don't see?

My 'FAITH and salvation' theology has a place for those two questions. Explain how they fit your theology?

Romans 8:1...……..
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

You do not have to worry about or insinuate that this old country boy's position another second my brother because I am just as saved as you are.

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I never said you weren't a brother. When I said "I hope you are a brother." I said that because of your last sentence: "May the Lord bless you my friend and be good to you!" You addressed me as "friend"....I'm sorry, WE are not, and that has been 'the truth' from the very beginning IMO. All I was doing was confirming whether you even thought we were brothers in Christ. So you judged wrongly, what I meant with my "hope".

I don't have to agree theologically to still believe someone is a "brother" in Christ. My statement was to see if you even agreed that we were. But you certainly made no "insinuation" at all in your subsequent judgment of me. You flatly said I wasn't because of "my actions/words" or whatever it was you based being brothers on. I don't base being a 'brother in Christ' on that. I know BROTHERS who hate each others guts....both physically as well as spiritually....but they're still brothers none the less, just like the prodigal son and 'brothers' story supports. And according to 'one of two' whose advice I sought before responding back to you, one said "In my view the two of you need to calm down." I'm trying IMO, and if you still can't then maybe the one who judged US should PM you and see how you take 'his counsel'. I actually picked him because I don't think he's that fond of me anyway. But I picked him for his integrity which I have seen here.

I am just blessed that you have found someone of like thinking on the forum so that you will not be lonely in discussion on this subject.

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Yes, we're wired differently brother. Anyone who is believing false doctrine IMO is certainly not going to be a 'blessing to me' because he found another, who thinks wrongly like him. I can't even imagine such a thing being a blessing.

Hillsage said:

Correct me "AGAIN"? I beg to differ. I believe I'm still waiting for a 'first correction' that's acceptable.

Well at least we've got agreement on that point. Good for you.

Was the price for your sins paid for by the blood and death of Jesus 2,000 years ago? Or were they paid for by you accepting Him in faith today?

Explain to me why do we, TO THIS DAY call the apostle Thomas DOUBTING THOMAS? There was absolutely NO FAITH in Thomas, having Jesus standing before him in His resurrected body saying stick your hand in these two holes Thomas. And what did Jesus then say? Was it 'The only way to be saved is to accept by faith without seeing.'" Or did Jesus say "BLESSED are those who believe and don't see?

My 'FAITH and salvation' theology has a place for those two questions. Explain how they fit your theology?

I never said you weren't a brother. When I said "I hope you are a brother." I said that because of your last sentence: "May the Lord bless you my friend and be good to you!" You addressed me as "friend"....I'm sorry, WE are not, and that has been 'the truth' from the very beginning IMO. All I was doing was confirming whether you even thought we were brothers in Christ. So you judged wrongly, what I meant with my "hope".

I don't have to agree theologically to still believe someone is a "brother" in Christ. My statement was to see if you even agreed that we were. But you certainly made no "insinuation" at all in your subsequent judgment of me. You flatly said I wasn't because of "my actions/words" or whatever it was you based being brothers on. I don't base being a 'brother in Christ' on that. I know BROTHERS who hate each others guts....both physically as well as spiritually....but they're still brothers none the less, just like the prodigal son and 'brothers' story supports. And according to 'one of two' whose advice I sought before responding back to you, one said "In my view the two of you need to calm down." I'm trying IMO, and if you still can't then maybe the one who judged US should PM you and see how you take 'his counsel'. I actually picked him because I don't think he's that fond of me anyway. But I picked him for his integrity which I have seen here.


Yes, we're wired differently brother. Anyone who is believing false doctrine IMO is certainly not going to be a 'blessing to me' because he found another, who thinks wrongly like him. I can't even imagine such a thing being a blessing.

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You asked...………...
"Was the price for your sins paid for by the blood and death of Jesus 2,000 years ago? Or were they paid for by you accepting Him in faith today?

YES! Again! AGAIN I say to you that there is absolutely NO Scripture to support Universalism. Therefore it is YOU who is propagating a false doctrine.

YES! Theology 101.

The work that Jesus did when He died for all the sins of anyone who trusts in him; otherwise, a person could not be saved from God's righteous judgment.

Faith is the vehicle by which we appropriate His payment for us.

I try to be "Friends" with everyone I meet, even those who teach a false doctrine. I am too old to be making enemies.

Without faith in Jesus, we remain in sin and cannot be accepted into God’s presence in His perfect heaven. With faith in Jesus, we are given access to the Father as God’s own children.

As for Thomas...….Was his faith any less than Peter's. And by the way, how many of the 12 Disciples were at the cross when Jesus died? ONE!
What about their faith????

Personally, I think that what Thomas did was exactly what all of us would do today. Thomas missed the grave visit where the cloths of Jesus was found.

John 20:24...…….
"But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."

He was not there when the other disciples said to him in John 20:25......
"The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD."

This, I am sure, was like a kick in the stomach to poor old Thomas. He was not there! So he covered his disappointment by forcing out the following comment in verse 25....
"But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe."

Did Thomas have doubt? YES!!! He is so much like us. When we miss something that is too good to be true. When we miss what will surely become a moment in history that the whole world will remember--we are prone to say, "I will not believe it until I see it with my own eyes."

Have a wonderful day brother!

FineLinen said:

The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment.

Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken.

It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable.

If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life for that matter.

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I believe what God said is far more important than anything I could say.

Luke 16:23-25...…...
"And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented."

"Being in torments" = Plural, ON-GOING.
"for I am tormented in this flame. = ON-GOING, eternal, forever.
"Thou are Tormented" = Forever, never ending, eternal.

When we allow what WE THINK to change the Word of God, then we will forever be in error and it will always lead to liberalism and false teaching.

God wills that all men everywhere repent now before it is too late. Christ died so that ALL men could be saved. But man has to believe in Christ and accept His work BRFORE death overtakes that man. DEATH ends all opportunities to be saved.

YOU as a Universalist says a man in hell may come to repentance.

NOW JUST THINK FOR A MOMENT.

If this is true, there is no need for Christ! If that is true there is then no need for the preaching of the Word of God. There is then NO NEED for missionaries. There is no need to worship God or to attend a church service.
There is no need for the gospel to even exist and what man has done for Christ the past 2000 years is a total waste of time.

Understand folks that if the offering and sacrifice of Jesus is pointless if there is hope for those cast into hell.

We can live as we want to live, get drunk, take drugs, kill those we do not like, have sex with everything that walks because in the end...…..
ALL WILL BE SAVED, EVEN THOSE IN HELL!

YES. That is exactly what my friend "finelinen" is proposing to you all.

The theology of Universalism teaches that those in the Lake of Fire (hell) can repent and go to Heaven. They pretend that the Lake of Fire is a refining fire that purifies sinners. Two problems with this theory are ...….
1) it voids the need for the day of salvation, and
2) it makes salvation possible in hell.

AGAIN...…..there are NO Scriptures which support that idea or even suggest it.

The Bible says, “Now is the day of salvation,” meaning now is the time to be saved. Salvation is only possible in this lifetime. Scripture as a whole never comes close to suggesting that there is hope in the Lake of Fire.
The Refiner’s Fire Theory of Universalism Exposed Using The Bible

The Lake of Fire is not and will never be a purifying fire. The doctrine of Universalism says that fire can remove sin so a person may get out and go to Heaven. The Word of God says that only the blood of Jesus can wash away sin.

Hebrews 9:27-28:...........
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

FineLinen said:

The words endless torment (adialeipton timorion), eternal imprisonment (aidios eirgmos) and eternal punishment (aidios kalasin) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Neither, will you find the term aidios timorion or eternal torment.

Therefore, whoever says that there is an eternal (aidios) time set for punishment (kalasin) or torment beyond this life is sadly mistaken.

It's a limited duration of aionion (αἰώνιον - a period of time, as in an age) kalasin (Κόλασιν - chastisement or correction) which is in view; but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable.

If it were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used. But not even Jesus used the word for eternal in conjunction with any kind of punishment or life for that matter.

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The Lake of Fire is not a refiner’s fire; it’s eternal torment.

Eternal = forever and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever!!!

Universalism is a man made false teaching from people who can not accept the Word of God.

Again, may I say to all of you that there are NO SCRIPTURES that support this false teaching.

Major1 said:

YES! Again! AGAIN I say to you that there is absolutely NO Scripture to support Universalism. Therefore it is YOU who is propagating a false doctrine.

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Let's keep this simple. I want you to answer me the universalism verse below. Please don't inundate me with scriptures you believe refute what it is plainly saying. That's unpacking more than I want, or you should even be sharing if you can't answer this one verse.

1TI 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/malista of those who believe.

This does not say; "Savior of all men UNLESS/malista they don't believe." And what is the definition of the Greek word interpreted "especially"?

3122 malista: (adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

Unpack your theology of "men" being 'most saved' or 'saved to the greatest degree. How does that line up with your opinion? I'm suspecting you believe one is, or one isn't saved.

The work that Jesus did when He died for all the sins of anyone who trusts in him; otherwise, a person could not be saved from God's righteous judgment.

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That's an opinion which doesn't line up with scripture in my opinion.

2CO 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

You said 'anyone who trusts in him', but this says Christs work WAS (past tense) reconciling everyone without even counting their trespasses against them'. No mention of trust as your opinion believes. So did HE do that or not? Scripture is plain, that is exactly what He did. And not just for us, but the whole world.

1JO 2:2 and he - he is a propitiation/atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
Atonement is a compound word; 'at-one-ment'

The Heb. definition of atonement;
3722 kaphar: to cover (spec. with bitumen); fig. to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel.

IOW the OT work of Christ's blood 'covered, expiated, condoned, placated, CANCELED....the debt of sin for "THE WHOLE WORLD"...and"NOT for ours only". That is scripture.

Faith is the vehicle by which we appropriate His payment for us.

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I agree, but FAITH isn't what pays the price for your sins which you/I still commit today as a "Christian". Faith is what you can apply this side of glory according to Peter on the day of Pentecost (where no mention of eternal hell is even made to the infant church of Christ). And the only salvation mentioned in the 'first sermon ever' is a salvation from this sinful generation we live in on earth.

ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

I try to be "Friends" with everyone I meet, even those who teach a false doctrine. I am too old to be making enemies.

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So do I. So how has that been working FOR US? And who has humbled himself first, to try to make this relationship/brother attain to the goal of better 'fellowship'? I'll stop here and ask you to 'refute' what I have just presented with your theological understanding of these verses and these definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words which support my application.

Have a wonderful day brother!

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This closure has made it the best day I believe WE have ever had brother. I'm suspecting more work is needed to attain 'friend' status.

FineLinen said:

Dear Country Boy: You are most likely unaware of some of the calibre individuals who grasp the Glorious Gospel today and from yesteryear (all on the foundation of zero Scripture LOL).

You have failed again to tell us what is the difference between our God the consuming pur & the Lake of pur whose essence is theion and theioo.

The Shack and Universal Reconciliation. - Wm. Paul Young

God is love, and when He moves to save His people, He saves them in love, through love, by love, and for love through Jesus Christ.

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Revelation 20:10 ......
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Rev. 14:10-11...……..
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

Hillsage said:

Let's keep this simple. I want you to answer me the universalism verse below. Please don't inundate me with scriptures you believe refute what it is plainly saying. That's unpacking more than I want, or you should even be sharing if you can't answer this one verse.

1TI 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/malista of those who believe.

This does not say; "Savior of all men UNLESS/malista they don't believe." And what is the definition of the Greek word interpreted "especially"?

3122 malista: (adv.) most (in the greatest degree) or particularly

Unpack your theology of "men" being 'most saved' or 'saved to the greatest degree. How does that line up with your opinion? I'm suspecting you believe one is, or one isn't saved.


That's an opinion which doesn't line up with scripture in my opinion.

2CO 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

You said 'anyone who trusts in him', but this says Christs work WAS (past tense) reconciling everyone without even counting their trespasses against them'. No mention of trust as your opinion believes. So did HE do that or not? Scripture is plain, that is exactly what He did. And not just for us, but the whole world.

1JO 2:2 and he - he is a propitiation/atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
Atonement is a compound word; 'at-one-ment'

The Heb. definition of atonement;
3722 kaphar: to cover (spec. with bitumen); fig. to expiate or condone, to placate or cancel.

IOW the OT work of Christ's blood 'covered, expiated, condoned, placated, CANCELED....the debt of sin for "THE WHOLE WORLD"...and"NOT for ours only". That is scripture.


I agree, but FAITH isn't what pays the price for your sins which you/I still commit today as a "Christian". Faith is what you can apply this side of glory according to Peter on the day of Pentecost (where no mention of eternal hell is even made to the infant church of Christ). And the only salvation mentioned in the 'first sermon ever' is a salvation from this sinful generation we live in on earth.

ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


So do I. So how has that been working FOR US? And who has humbled himself first, to try to make this relationship/brother attain to the goal of better 'fellowship'? I'll stop here and ask you to 'refute' what I have just presented with your theological understanding of these verses and these definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words which support my application.


This closure has made it the best day I believe WE have ever had brother. I'm suspecting more work is needed to attain 'friend' status.

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I can certainly give you the correct exegesis of the Scriptures you asked about. BUT what would be the point? You are not going to accept anything other than what you have already accepted because you have worked to make the Scriptures say what you want them to say. My observation of your theology is that you were exposed to some really false teaching as a young person that sounded good to you but is not correct.

YOU are saying and believing that eventually ALL people will repent and be saved.
However...………. the verse does not prove what the Universalists hope it does.
Can God be called the Savior of all men and yet not redeem all? Yes.

1TI 4:10 ......….
"For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially/malista of those who believe".

All people are, by nature, born under wrath (Eph. 2:3) and should go to hell. Why? Because God is holy and we are sinners. Yet, we have hope in Christ. The Christian is saved by faith (Eph. 2:8) and will join the Lord in heaven.
1 Tim. 4:10 and universalism | CARM.org

But, the unbeliever is under judgment. John 3:18 says, "He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God".

Why does God not simply destroy them as is His right? Because of the Christians! Because God is being patient with the unbeliever, allowing them to enjoy the blessings of life in this world without the rightful condemnation of God falling upon them. This is what the Bible states:

Romans 9:22-23...…..
"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory".

Jesus is the savior of all men in that He has made all people saveable. Without Jesus' sacrifice, none could ever be saved. Since Jesus, who is the Word made flesh atoned for sin, all people are now redeemable. He is the Savior of all, but especially of believers. That is, all are now redeemable due to the sacrifice of Christ, but redemption is specifically applied to those who trust in Christ as the only ones who will be redeemed ARE THOOSE WHO ACCEPT CHRIST BY FAITH.

My the Lord bless you shine His countenance upon you.

FineLinen said:

Dear Country Boy: You are most likely unaware of some of the calibre individuals who grasp the Glorious Gospel today and from yesteryear (all on the foundation of zero Scripture LOL).

You have failed again to tell us what is the difference between our God the consuming pur & the Lake of pur whose essence is theion and theioo.

The Shack and Universal Reconciliation. - Wm. Paul Young

God is love, and when He moves to save His people, He saves them in love, through love, by love, and for love through Jesus Christ.

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Romans 10:17...…...
"Faith come by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".

FineLinen said:

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NO ONE IS WORTHY!!!

Major1 said:

Revelation 20:10 ......
"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Rev. 14:10-11...……..
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

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Yes, Rev 14:10-11 are the words of the third angel warning the nations (14:6) to repent. Rev 20:10 is about the devil, not the nations. They are mentioned in the preceding verse (20:9):

They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

Looks like the end for the nations...but wait:

He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” (21:5) Heaven comes to earth in the form of the New Jerusalem. (21:10), and then...

The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth and the nations will bring their glory and honor into it; (21:24,26)

So the nations are delivered from the consuming fire repentant. They are also purified, so they can enter the City of God, since we're told:

nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life. (21:27)

But there's more. Once they come inside through the open gates (21:25), they find:

a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. (22:1-2)

Wow! Did you get that? The nations are consumed by holy fire, and enter heaven purified to worship the Almighty, to be treated with the healing leaves from the tree of life. There will no longer be any curse (22:3). Their worm dieth not.

But it's no cakewalk. They need encouragement to overcome:

The Spirit and the bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who wishes take the water of life without cost. (22:17)

So our role is to encourage the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars (21:7) to no longer do wrong or remain filthy (22:11), but 'wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.' (22:14), and ultimately: The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen. (22:21)