Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

LittleLambofJesus

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Most of the Christian world KNOW this is referring to Antiochus.
I know, you are great in your own mind, and have successfully refuted everyone that disagrees with you.
This verse is also referring to Antiochus:
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

majority is right.jpg
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Responses from page 1...........
Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificing a pig on the alter in the Temple in Macabbean times was an abomination of desolation.
The Roman soldiers under Titus in 70 AD carrying their standards into the Temple and destroying it was an abomination of desolation (and I think that was the one warned about in Olivet Discourse - and parallels Luke's 'when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies') .
But I don't know if Revelation records an abomination of desolation.
The abomination of desolation is 2 things in Revelation. First it is the man of lawlessness standing in the Most Holy Place in the temple. Then, through this he does this:

And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. ~Revelation 13:15

This image of the beast is the abomination of desolation and he is empowered by standing in the Most Holy Place by sorcery and workings of evil to give breath to this image. This image is a stone statue of the man of lawlessness according to this scripture:

Woe to him who says to a wooden thing, Awake; to a silent stone, Arise! Can this teach? Behold, it is overlaid with gold and silver, and there is no breath at all in it. ~Habakkuk 2:19
The AoD is linked with 1260 days. The only corresponding mention is Revelation 11:2-3 at the start of the two witnesses when the Gentiles tread the Outer Court and city..
Some say that the Abomination that causes Desolation was the Destruction of the Temple. Some say that the Temple was destroyed because James the Just was murdered. The remnant of Judah fled from Jerusalem when that finally happened. They will flee again when the two witnesses of God are slaughtered.

Their flight will go unnoticed, because the whole rest of the world will be partying like it's the last thing they will ever have on their mind. It is at this time that the remnant flock will go into hiding and be fed manna from God, while the scorpion's tail marks for destruction the children of the beast.
I don't know how to express my views on Biblical Prophecy except to word it that I believe in Dual Fulfillment and Multiple Fulfillment.

The classic example is Isaiah's "Behold, a virgin shall conceive". In the original Hebrew, that word ALMA denoted a young woman of marriagable age, with out a clear designation of virginity or not. I believe there was a young boy born in Isaiah's time, of natural conception, that was a literal fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy. Long after this happenned, the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek -- the Septuagint; in it -- PARTHENOS was used which is a "virgin virgin" unequivocably. So the same prophecy predicts the OT boy of an ALMA, and Christ of a PARTHENOS -- Dual Fulfillment.

It is Full Preterism's assertion that "this happenned - there will be nothing else in the future" that prevents me from swallowing it AS AN ESCHATOLOGICAL SYSTEM.

Daniel speaks of an Abomination of Desolation -- and most people know it happenned in time of Antiochus Epiphanes -- circa 167 BC. But Jesus in Olivet Discourse says one is COMING; to flee when you see Abomination of Desolation. It is historical fact that Christians fled to Pella and elsewhere circa 70 AD. Dual Fulfillment -- possible Multiple Fullfillment -- yes, a third AOD still to come
and Revelation 12, the Virtuous Woman (= true spiritual Israel remnant amongst whom the Messiah was born, amidst whom Jesus ministered, and from whom came the original Jewish Apostles & Disciples who started the Church) flees to the Wilderness for 1260 days ?

Cp. Christians fled to Pella during the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I will say it again...

The phrase "the abomination of desolation" is not in the Book of Revelation.


We know Matthew 25:15 is not about the time near the Second Coming, because Matthew 24:15-16, and Luke 21:20-21, are parallel passages.
You are forcing your interpretation on the Bible in order to make your man-made chart work.
.
Hello BAB. The phrase may not be in there but surely that event should be being shown in Revelation?

Views from the early church:

Matthew 24:15 - Abomination of Desolation  |  Study Archive





St. Athanasius (296-372)
"And when He Who spake unto Moses, the Word of the Father, appeared in the end of the world, He also gave this commandment, saying, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another" [Matt. 10:23]; and shortly after He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand); then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes" [Matt. 24:15]. Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly." (Defense of His Flight [11])

Augustine (379)
"Luke, to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)

Chrysostom (379)
"Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by" abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple, wherefore Christ calleth it, "of desolation." Moreover, in order that they might learn that these things will be while some of them are alive, therefore He said, "When ye see the abomination of desolation." (Of Matthew 24:1,2)

"And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)

Pseudo-Chrysostom
"Whence I think that by the abomination of desolation, He means the army by which the city of the holy Jerusalem was desolated." (Matthew 24:3, Quoted in Golden Chain)

Clement of Alexandria (Second Century)
"For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction... These two thousand three hundred days make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

Eusebius Pamphilius (325)
"But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)

Jerome
"it may be understood of the statue of Caesar, which Pilate set up in the temple; or of the equestrian statue of Adrian, which stood to the present time in the very Holy of Holies. For, according to the Old Scripture, an idol is called 'abomination;' "of desolation" is added, because the idol was set up in the desolated and deserted temple." (Matthew 24:15, Quoted in Golden Chain)

Remigius
"And this we know was so done when the fall of Jerusalem drew near; for on the approach of the Roman army, all the Christians in the province, warned, as ecclesiastical history tells us, [marg. note: Euseb., H. E., iii. 5] miraculously from heaven, withdrew, and passing the Jordan, took refuge in the city of Pella; and under the protection of that King Agrippa, of whom we read in the Acts of the Apostles, they continued some time; but Agrippa himself, with the Jews whom he governed, was subjected to the dominion of the Romans." (Matthew 24:15, Ibid.)
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LittleLambofJesus

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Futurists views........

Matthew 24:15 - Abomination of Desolation  |  Study Archive



Gary Gibbs
"As a result of not responding to God's call to turn from their abominations, their temple was to be desolated. This prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Roman armies of Titus burned the temple to the ground. This second desolation of the temple perfectly paralleled its first destruction. On both occasions the abominations were done by the apostate people of God and the desolation was an act of judgment performed by a heathen army." (The Abomination of Desolation)

Theodore Robinson (1928)
"... the Apalling Horror spoken of by the prophet Daniel shall stand erect in the holy place, apparently a reference to the presence of the Roman armies round Jerusalem, and so rightly interpreted by Luke." (Robinson, p. 198)

Smith's Bible Dictionary
"Abomination of Desolation, mentioned by our Saviour, (#Mt 24:15,) as a sign of the approaching destruction of Jerusalem, with reference to (#Da 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.) The prophecy referred ultimately to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and consequently the abomination must describe some occurrence connected with that event ..... Most people refer it to the standards or banners of the Roman army." (Under Abomination of Desolation)

Marvin Vincent (1996)
Abomination of desolation. The cognate verb means to feel a nausea or loathing for food: hence used of disgust generally. In a moral sense it denotes an object of moral or religious repugnance. See 2 Chronicles 15:8; Jeremiah 13:27; Ezekiel 11:21; Daniel 9:27; 11:31. It is used as equivalent to idol in 1 Kings 11:17; Deuteronomy 7:26; 2 Kings 23:13. It denotes anything in which estrangement from God manifests itself; as the eating of unclean beasts, Leviticus 11:11; Deuteronomy 14:3; and, generally, all forms of heathenism. This moral sense must be emphasized in the New Testament used of the word. Compare Luke 16:15; Revelation 17:4, 5; 21:27. It does not denote mere physical or aesthethic disgust. The reference here is probably to the occupation of the temple precincts by the idolatrous Romans under Titus, with their standards and ensigns. Josephus says that, after the burning of the temple the Romans brought their ensigns and set them over against the eastern gate, and there they offered sacrifices to them, and declared Titus, with acclamations, to be emperor. 22. Should be shortened. Rev., had been shortened. A very picturesque word. The verb is, literally, to dock, to cut off, leaving a stump, as a limb. Wyc., abridged. As a fact, various causes did combine to shorten the siege. Herod Agrippa was stopped in his work of strengthening the walls by orders from the emperor; the Jews, absorbed in their party strifes, had totally neglected preparations to stand a siege; the magazines of corn and provisions were burnt before the arrival of Titus. Titus arrived suddenly, and the Jews voluntarily abandoned parts of the fortification. Titus himself confessed that God was against the Jews, since otherwise neither his armies nor his engines would have availed against their defences. " WORD STUDIES IN THE NEW TESTAMENT (pp. 154-155)

John Walvoord
"Such a temple will be rebuilt and these prophecies literally fulfilled. If upon this revival of their sacrificial system such a future temple is suddenly desecrated, it would constitute a sign to the nation of Israel of the coming time of great trouble just preceding the second coming."

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LittleLambofJesus

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ppppppppppp




Adam Clarke (1837)
"Verse 15. The abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel— This abomination of desolation, St. Luke, (Luke 21:20, 21,) refers to the Roman army; and this abomination standing in the holy place is the Roman army besieging Jerusalem; this, our Lord says, is what was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, in the ninth and eleventh chapters of his prophecy; and so let every one who reads these prophecies understand them; and in reference to this very event they are understood by the rabbins. The Roman army is called an abomination, for its ensigns and images, which were so to the Jews. Josephus says, (War, b. vi. chap. 6,) the Romans brought their ensigns into the temple, and placed them over against the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there. The Roman army is therefore fitly called the abomination, and the abomination which maketh desolate, as it was to desolate and lay waste Jerusalem; and this army besieging Jerusalem is called by St. Mark, Mark 13:14, standing where it ought not, that is, as in the text here, the holy place; as not only the city, but a considerable compass of ground about it, was deemed holy, and consequently no profane persons should stand on it." (Adam Clarke's Commentary On Matthew 24)

Ernest Renan (1897)
"The Romans planted their standards in the place where the sanctuary had stood, and, as was their custom, offered them worship" (Antichrist, p. 260)

Irenaeus: “Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by Whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which temple the enemy shall sit, endeavoring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place… let those which are in Judea flee to the mountains…’ “ (Against Heresies, V. xxv. 2).

Hippolytus of Rome: “As also it was announced to Daniel: ‘And one week shall confirm a covenant with many. And in the midst of the week it shall be that the sacrifice and oblation shall be removed” -- that the one week might be shown to be divided into two. The two witnesses, then, shall preach three years and a half; and Antichrist shall make war upon the saints during the rest of the week, and desolate the world, that was it written may be fulfilled: ‘And they shall make the abomination of desolation for a thousand two hundred and ninety days.’” (Fragments from Commentaries).

Lactantius: “But that king will not only be most disgraceful in himself, but he will also be a prophet of lies; and he will constitute and call himself God, and will order himself to be worshipped as the son of God; and power will be given him to do signs and wonders, by the sight of which he may entice men to adore him. He will command fire to come down from heaven, and the sun to stand and leave his course, and an image to speak; and these things shall be done at his word; by which miracles even many of the wise shall be enticed by him. Then he will attempt to destroy the temple of God, and persecute the righteous people; and there will be distress and tribulation, such as there never has been from the beginning of the world” (Divine Institutes, V. 17).

Justin Martyr: “…I will mention to you other words also spoken by the blessed David, from which you will perceive that the Lord is called the Christ by the holy spirit of prophecy; and that the Lord, the Father of all, has brought Him again from the earth, setting Him at His own right hand, until He makes His enemies His footstool; which indeed happens from the time that the Lord Jesus Christ ascended into heaven, after He rose from the dead, the times now running on to their consummation; and he who Daniel foretells would have dominion for a time, times, and a half, is even already at the door, about to speak blasphemous and daring things against the Most High” (Dialogue With Trypho, xxxii).

Victorinus: “’And he shall make fire come down from heaven in the sight of men.’ Yes, (as I also have said), in the sight of men… He shall cause also that a golden image of Antichrist shall be placed in the temple at Jerusalem, and that the apostate angel should enter, and thence utter voices and oracles. Moreover, he himself shall contrive that his servants and children should receive a mark on their foreheads, or on their right hands, the number of his name, lest anyone should buy or sell them. Daniel had previously predicted his contempt and provocation of God. ‘And he shall place,’ says he, ‘his temple within Samaria, upon the illustrious and holy mountain that is at Jerusalem, an image such as Nebuchadnezzar had made (Dan. 11: 45). Thence here he places, and by and by here he renews, that of which the Lord, admonishing His churches concerning the last times and their dangers, says: ‘But when ye shall see the contempt which is spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing in the holy place, let him who readeth understand’” (Matt. 24: 15). (Commentary on the Apocalypse).

Commodianus: “Then doubtless the world shall be finished when he shall appear. He himself shall divide the globe into three ruling powers, when, moreover, Nero shall be raised up from hell, Elias shall first come to seal the beloved ones; at which things the regions of Africa and the northern nation, the whole earth on all sides, for seven years shall tremble. But Elias shall occupy the half of the time, Nero shall occupy half. Then the harlot Babylon, being reduced to ashes, its embers shall thence advance to Jerusalem; and the Latin conqueror shall then say, ‘I am Christ, whom ye always pray to;’ and indeed, the original ones who were deceived combine to praise him” (Instructions, xli).

Tertullian: “Well, but who is the ‘man of sin, the son of perdition,’ who must first be revealed before the Lord comes; ‘who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; who is to sit in the temple of God, and boast himself as being God” (2 Thess. 2: 3-4). According indeed to our view, he is Antichrist; and it is taught us in both the ancient and the new prophecies, and especially by the apostle John, who says that ‘already many false prophets are gone out into the world,’ the fore-runners of Antichrist, who deny that Christ is come in the flesh, and do not acknowledge Jesus (to be the Christ), meaning in God the Creator” (Against Marcion, V. xvi).

Origen: “The prophecy also regarding Antichrist is stated in the Book of Daniel, and is fitted to make an intelligent and candid reader admire the words as truly divine and prophetic; for in them are mentioned the things relating to the coming kingdom, and continuing to the destruction of the world… What is stated by Paul in the words quoted from him, where he says, ‘so that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God,’ is in Daniel referred to in the following fashion: ‘And on the temple, shall be the abomination of desolations, and at the end of the time an end shall be put to the desolations’ (Dan. 9: 27). So many, out of a greater number of passages, have I thought it right to adduce, that the hearer may understand in some slight degree, the meaning of holy Scripture, when it gives us information concerning the devil and Antichrist” (Against Celsus, VI. 46).

Cyril of Jerusalem: “And again he says, ‘Who opposeth and exalteth himself against al that is called God, or that is worshipped;’ (against every God; Antichrist will forsooth abhor the idols), ‘so that he seateth himself in the temple of God’ (2 Thess. 2: 9). What temple then? He means the temple of the Jews, which has been destroyed. For God forbid that it should be the one in which we are!” (Catechetical Lectures, XV. 15).

John of Damascus: “It should be known that Antichrist is bound to come. Every one, therefore, who confesses not that the Son of God came in the flesh and is perfect God and became perfect man, after being God, is Antichrist. But in a peculiar and special sense he who comes at the consummation of the age is called Antichrist. First then, it is requisite that the Gospel should be preached among all nations, as the Lord said, and then he will come to refute the impious Jews… ‘So that he sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” In the temple of God he said; not our temple, but the old Jewish temple; for he will come not to us, but to the Jews: not for Christ or the things of Christ: wherefore he is called Antichrist” (Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, xxvi).

OTHER ABOMINATIONS OF THE TEMPLE

"The first really grave break between the Yishuv [Jewish people] and the Roman Empire came under the Emperor Gaius Caligula (37-41 C.E.) Knowing that the emperor was a fanatic who believed himself to be a god and who accepted the worship of Caesar as his due, the foreign minority at Yavneh (Jamnia) set up an altar to Caesar. The Jews of the city, who would not tolerate idolatry on the soil of Judaea, smashed the altar. The emperor retaliated by ordering, among other things, the erection of an enormous golden image in the Jerusalem Temple itself. When news of the edict spread, it aroused fury throughout the Yishuv: open revolt seemed imminent." - The Jews in Their Land (David Ben-Gurion Editor)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I am finding very little information on the web concerning where in Revelation the Abomination of Desolation event is occurring .
I am partial preterist and I view 1st century Jerusalem in Revelation 18...........
Some partial futurists/preterists view it as future Jerusalem.........
It will be debated for another 1000yrs.........

THE GREAT DEBATE! Futurists VS Preterists. Did the Abomination of Desolation in Matthew 24:15 already Fulfill?

Section 1: Introduction - The Great Debate: Preterist VS Futurist

Preterist
Basically, Preterists (Amillennialism/Preterism) offer an eschatological view that interprets prophecies of the Bible as occurring in the past, including most or all of the prophecies of the Book of Revelation, Preterists interpret as occurring in the past. For more information on the eschatological view: Amillennialism/Preterism, and their different camps, please visit gotquestions.org directly.
Futurist
Basically, Futurists (Premillennialism/Chiliasm) offer an eschatological view that rather interprets prophecies of the Bible as certain prophecies do remain yet to be historically fulfilled. Even certain parallel prophecies from the Book of Daniel, and all of the prophecies from the Book of Revelation, Futurists do interpret as prophetic events that have not yet fulfilled in human history. My Camp. For more information on the eschatological view: Premillennialism/Chiliasm and their different camps, please visit gotquestions.org directly.
 
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iamlamad

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Responses from page 1...........
Several of the answers were good. The truth is, John did not SEE the abomination, so did not write of it. But we can still pinpoint it: people will flee when they see the abomination and the fleeing is seen at 12:6. Therefore, we just back up verse by verse and find a marker: it is the 7th trumpet. That trumpet will sound in heaven to mark the moment the man of sin will enter the temple and declare he is God.
Hint: you will never find this future event in the past. Oh, there have been abominations in the past, but the one Jesus spoke of is in our future.
 
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Douggg

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About three years three months into being the Antichrist, perceived messiah, King of Israel (illegitimate), the former little horn will unexpectedly go into the temple, sit, claim to be God. Triggering the Day of the Lord.

That act will be a betrayal against the Jewish people and transgresses the covenant they made with God at Mt. Sinai. The act is called the "transgression of desolation" in Daniel 8:13.

God has the person killed for the act. And in Isaiah 14:19-20, in disdain for the person, casts him out of the grave. Come back to life, the person becomes the beast of Revelation 13.

The image in Revelation 13 that will be made of the beast is the abomination of desolation. It will be placed in the temple, 1335 days (Daniel 12:12) before Jesus returns (day 2520) on day 1185 of the 7 years. The image of the beast placed in the temple will trigger the great tribulation.

Counting forward from day 1185, the 1290 days (Daniel 12:11) to day 2475 - on that day 2475, the cosmos will be shaken (the sixth seal event), and the world will see Jesus before the throne of God, the sign of the son of man in heaven.

Over the following 45 days, the armies of the world assemble at Armageddon to make war on Jesus, Psalms 2:1-3. On days 2520, Jesus descends down to earth and executes judgement on them. Ezekiel 39:21.
And here is my chart to provide a visual.

upload_2019-8-22_11-47-37.jpeg
 
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BABerean2

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Hello BAB. The phrase may not be in there but surely that event should be being shown in Revelation?

You are attempting to make the Book of Revelation about 70 AD, to make your form of Preterism work.

It does not matter who says it should be there, if it is not in the text.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Hello BAB. The phrase may not be in there but surely that event should be being shown in Revelation?
You are attempting to make the Book of Revelation about 70 AD, to make your form of Preterism work.

It does not matter who says it should be there, if it is not in the text.

.
And you are attempting to make the Jerusalem in Revelation as being future to make your form of Preterism work. Do you really want to hash it out in front of the Futurists that we are going against?
Like I have said before, I viewed 70ad Jerusalem in Revelationthe 1st time I read it thru in 2003........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:7
‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>.
That in Her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being,
and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'

Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You are attempting to make the Book of Revelation about 70 AD, to make your form of Preterism work.

It does not matter who says it should be there, if it is not in the text.
And you are attempting to make the Jerusalem in Revelation as being future to make your form of Preterism work. Do you really want to hash it out in front of the Futurists that we are going against?
Like I have said before, I viewed 70ad Jerusalem in Revelation the 1st time I read it thru in 2003........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:7
‘As much as She glorifies Herself and indulges so much, be giving to Her torment<929> and sorrow<3997>.
That in Her heart She is saying:
'I am sitting a Queen, and a Widow not I am being,
and sorrow not no I shall seeing.'

Lam 1:1
How deserted lies the City
, once so full of people! How like a widow is she, who once was great among the nations!
She who was queen among the provinces has now become a slave.
=================
Gal 4:25

for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is,
and is in bondage with her children—

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings.

Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground.

 
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BABerean2

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And you are attempting to make the Jerusalem in Revelation as being future to make your form of Preterism work. Do you really want to hash it out in front of the Futurists that we are going against?

Absolutely.

Why not "hash it out" in plain sight for all to see, by letting the scriptures reveal the truth?


The following has not happened yet.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Absolutely.
Why not "hash it out" in plain sight for all to see, by letting the scriptures reveal the truth?

The following has not happened yet.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come,
and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
.
Yes, let's do that. Your form of Preterism against my form of Preterism. [even tho your form of Preterism is no different than that of Futurism]
I created a thread on Reve 11:18 some time back just for you. It generated only 1 response...

Revelation 11:18 "2nd Woe passed, dead judged, reward the Saints"

==================================
That was Judgement and wrath upon Jerusalem in 70ad.

The 70ad destruction of Jerusalem in shown in Revelation 18 and 19.

The Judgement of the dead comes after the 1000yr period at the WTJ

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?
Luke 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned ye to flee from the being about wrath<ὀργῆς<3709>?

Matthew 23:33
“Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of the gehenna?[the gehenna of 1st century Jerusalem]

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath<ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.'

Luke 23:27 Followed yet to Him a vast multitude of the people and of women were. And grieved and wailed over Him.
28 Being turned yet toward them, Jesus said "Daughters of Jerusalem no be lamenting over Me, moreover for yourselves be-lamenting, and upon the children of ye.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Reve 18:9
and shall be lamenting/klausontai <2799> (5695) and shall be bewailing/beating-breasts over Her the kings of the Land the ones with her fornicating and indulging whenever they may be observing the smoke of the refining fire of her.
11 `And the merchants of the land are lamenting/klaiousin <2799> (5719) and are mourning over Her, because no one is not still buying their merchandise/cargo
15 The merchants of these things, the ones being rich from her, from afar shall be standing through the fear of the torment of Her, lamenting,/klaionteV <2799> (5723) and mourning 19 and they casted dust upon the heads of them, and were crying out, lamenting/klaionteV <2799> (5723) and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the City the Great! in which are rich all the ones having the ships in the sea , out of the preciousness of Her to one hour she was desolated
 
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Douggg

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And you are attempting to make the Jerusalem in Revelation as being future to make your form of Preterism work. Do you really want to hash it out in front of the Futurists that we are going against?
:clap::doh:^_^ .......you should at least do it in a " Partial Preterist only" tagged thread - I never read those. I don't think most futurists read those either, imo. Regardless, it is not going to change the futurist opinion on partial preterism. So I would not be too concerned.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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BABerean2 said:
You are attempting to make the Book of Revelation about 70 AD, to make your form of Preterism work.
It does not matter who says it should be there, if it is not in the text.
LittleLambofJesus said:
And you are attempting to make the Jerusalem in Revelation as being future to make your form of Preterism work. Do you really want to hash it out in front of the Futurists that we are going against?
:clap::doh:^_^ .......you should at least do it in a " Partial Preterist only" tagged thread - I never read those. I don't think most futurists read those either, imo.
Hello Dougg
Don't you think it would be helpful and more edifying for this topic to include views of all different forms of end time views?
If you want to discuss this thread just from a purely partial/full futurist view, you should start your own thread on it and label "Futurists only" :idea: :)
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
Where in Revelation is shown the AoD mentioned in Daniel, Matthew and Mark?
Any help on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
Douggg said:
About three years three months into being the Antichrist, perceived messiah, King of Israel (illegitimate), the former little horn will unexpectedly go into the temple, sit, claim to be God. Triggering the Day of the Lord.

That act will be a betrayal against the Jewish people and transgresses the covenant they made with God at Mt. Sinai. The act is called the "transgression of desolation" in Daniel 8:13.

God has the person killed for the act. And in Isaiah 14:19-20, in disdain for the person, casts him out of the grave. Come back to life, the person becomes the beast of Revelation 13.

The image in Revelation 13 that will be made of the beast is the abomination of desolation. It will be placed in the temple, 1335 days (Daniel 12:12) before Jesus returns (day 2520) on day 1185 of the 7 years. The image of the beast placed in the temple will trigger the great tribulation.

Counting forward from day 1185, the 1290 days (Daniel 12:11) to day 2475 - on that day 2475, the cosmos will be shaken (the sixth seal event), and the world will see Jesus before the throne of God, the sign of the son of man in heaven.

Over the following 45 days, the armies of the world assemble at Armageddon to make war on Jesus, Psalms 2:1-3. On days 2520, Jesus descends down to earth and executes judgement on them. Ezekiel 39:21.
And here is my chart to provide a visual.

View attachment 261550
Hello Douggg.
That is actually pretty interesting........I will have to look at it more.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The 4th century AD Christian historian, Eusebius of Caesarea, had mentioned about the AoD(Abomination of Desolation) event in his books. ...
https://books.google.com.my/books?id=aogf2fT9UhoC&pg=PA209&lpg=PA209&dq=eusebius+of+caesarea+&+"abomination+of+desolation"&source=bl&ots=kEs6UIYX_c&sig=OiNXG0NSdB51TeyD7CB6jdzu0EM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjqwKviwo3cAhUUWysKHcQ9AT8Q6AEINjAE#v=onepage&q=eusebius of caesarea & "abomination of desolation"&f=false
IIRC, he referred to the AoD as the statue of the Roman Emperor that was set up in the middle of the Holy Temple of God in Jerusalem and Jews and Jewish Christians were required to worship the statue on penalty of death for refusal. How come.?

After the Jews got rid of Jesus the Christ/Messiah because He did not gift them back their kingdom of earth(= Judah/Israel) by militarily defeating the foreign Roman rulers(JOHN.6:15), the Jews raised up false messiahs/christs(MATTHEW.24:24) to lead them into armed rebellion against the Romans(LUKE.21:20) = the Jewish-Roman Wars.

To counter the Jewish rebellion, the Roman Emperor issued a decree requiring the Jews to pledge allegiance to him by worshipping his statue which he set up in the Holy Temple of God. Most of the Jews hypocritically submitted in order to escape the death penalty. Unfortunately, some Jewish Christians refused and were martyred. Those Jewish Christians who heeded the warning of Christ at LUKE.21:20 were "saved" by fleeing Judea.
....... IIRC, James the Just and his Judaizers remained in Jerusalem/Judea and were supportive of the Jewish rebels.

The Jewish-Roman Wars culminated in the desolation of Jerusalem/Judea and the destruction of the Holy Temple of God in 70AD. Thereafter, no Jews were allowed to live in Judea = became Palestine/Philistine.

So, the AoD was an event that had been prophesied by Jesus Christ in the New Testament and has already come to pass in 1st century AD.
....... Hence, it is not mentioned in the prophesies of REVELATION which mostly talks about the coming persecution/prosecution against believers(eg the mark-of-the-beast event) just before the 2nd Coming of Jesus Christ to earth, the resurrection/rapture of believers, the Great Tribulation period for unbelievers, the Millennium years for believers on a new earth, Judgment Day and finally the kingdom of heaven/God.
Good post.
Incidentally Matt 24:6 does appear to be warning the 1st century Jews of the impending lpre 70AD wars that is to come, along with the impending destruction of Herod's Temple in 70ad.....
=====================
"Ye will hear of battles and rumors of battles" 1st century Judea

All 3 mention "the End".
Matt 24:8 and Mark 13:8 has
"All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
Some versions leave out "pestilences" in Matt 24:7.
===========================
Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>
===========================
Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS:
Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
================================
Mat 23:38
“See! Your house is left to you desolate;
Luk 13:35
“See! Your house is left to you desolate;

Revelation 18:19 and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>,
for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.
====================================

Preterist Perspectives on Josephus' Wars of the Jews @ PreteristArchive.com,
The Factions in Jerusalem During the Roman Siege


MAY, A.D. 66 - JERUSALEM
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66


The Roman Procurator Florus demands 17 talents from the Jewish Temple treasury. This is the triggering insult for the Jews to begin their revolt. The Roman garrison in Jerusalem is overrun by rebels, who take control of the city. The rebels cause cessation of all sacrifices to the Roman Emperor, thus challenging Rome head-on.

The Jewish War, 4.4.5 286-287 "There broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming. ....The Idumeans thought that God was angry at their taking arms, and that they would not escape punishment for their making war upon their metropolis. Ananus and his party thought that they had conquered without fighting, and that God acted as a general for them; but truly they proved both ill conjectures at what was to come... For as the night was far gone, and the storm very terrible, Ananus gave the guards in the cloisters leave to go to sleep; while it came into the heads of the Zealots to make use of the saws belonging to the Temple, and to cut the bars of the gates to pieces. The noise of the wind, and that not inferior sound of the thunder, did here also conspire with their designs, that the noise of the saws was not heard by the others. So they secretly went out of the Temple to the wall of the city, and made use of their saws, and opened that gate which was over against the Idumeans..."

Florus cannot handle the situation, so the (Roman) Syrian Governor, Cestius Gallus, is called in to subdue the rebellion. He attacks Jerusalem, gets up to the walls of the city, then unexpectedly withdraws, suffering heavy losses in retreat.

"And all this prophecy of what would result from their insolence against the Christ has been clearly proved to have taken place after their plot against our Saviour. For it was not before it, but afterwards from that day to this that God turned their feasts into mourning, despoiled them of their famous mother-city, and destroyed the holy Temple therein when Titus and Vespasian were Emperors of Rome, so that they could no longer go up to keep their feasts and sacred meetings. I need not say that a famine of hearing the Word of the Lord has overtaken them all, in return for their rejection of the Word of God; since with one voice they refused Him, so He refuses them." (AD 310s - Eusebius, Demonstratio Evangelica, X)
================================
 
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Douggg

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Hello Dougg
Don't you think it would be helpful and more edifying for this topic to include views of all different forms of end time views?

Well, considering your opening post, I would not have put a tag on it, either.
If you want to discuss this thread just from a purely partial/full futurist view, you should start your own thread on it and label "Futurists only" :idea: :)
I don't if you are making a suggestion or making a point. But I am not going to do a repeat topic.
 
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Erik Nelson

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St. Athanasius (296-372)
"And when He Who spake unto Moses, the Word of the Father, appeared in the end of the world, He also gave this commandment, saying, "But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another" [Matt. 10:23]; and shortly after He says, "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand); then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains: let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes" [Matt. 24:15]. Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly." (Defense of His Flight [11])

Augustine (379)
"Luke, to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)

Chrysostom (379)
"Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by" abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple, wherefore Christ calleth it, "of desolation." Moreover, in order that they might learn that these things will be while some of them are alive, therefore He said, "When ye see the abomination of desolation." (Of Matthew 24:1,2)

"And see how He relates the war, by the things that seem to be small setting forth how intolerable it was to be. For, "Then,"saith He, "let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains." Then, When? When these things should be, "when the abomination of desolation should stand in the holy place." Whence He seems to me to be speaking of the armies." (Homily 76, Number 1)

Pseudo-Chrysostom
"Whence I think that by the abomination of desolation, He means the army by which the city of the holy Jerusalem was desolated." (Matthew 24:3, Quoted in Golden Chain)

Clement of Alexandria (Second Century)
"For he said that there were two thousand three hundred days from the time that the abomination of Nero stood in the holy city, till its destruction... These two thousand three hundred days make six years four months, during the half of which Nero held sway" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 2, p. 334)

Eusebius Pamphilius (325)
"But the number of calamities which every where fell upon the nation at that time; the extreme misfortunes to which the inhabitants of Judea were especially subjected, the thousands of men, as well as women and children, that perished by the sword, by famine, and by other forms of death innumerable,--all these things, as well as the many great sieges which were carried on against the cities of Judea, and the excessive. sufferings endured by those that fled to Jerusalem itself, as to a city of perfect safety, and finally the general course of the whole war, as well as its particular occurrences in detail, and how at last the abomination of desolation, proclaimed by the prophets, stood in the very temple of God, so celebrated of old, the temple which was now awaiting its total and final destruction by fire,-- all these things any one that wishes may find accurately described in the history written by Josephus." (Book III, Ch. 5)

Jerome
"it may be understood of the statue of Caesar, which Pilate set up in the temple; or of the equestrian statue of Adrian, which stood to the present time in the very Holy of Holies. For, according to the Old Scripture, an idol is called 'abomination;' "of desolation" is added, because the idol was set up in the desolated and deserted temple." (Matthew 24:15, Quoted in Golden Chain)

Remigius
"And this we know was so done when the fall of Jerusalem drew near; for on the approach of the Roman army, all the Christians in the province, warned, as ecclesiastical history tells us, [marg. note: Euseb., H. E., iii. 5] miraculously from heaven, withdrew, and passing the Jordan, took refuge in the city of Pella; and under the protection of that King Agrippa, of whom we read in the Acts of the Apostles, they continued some time; but Agrippa himself, with the Jews whom he governed, was subjected to the dominion of the Romans." (Matthew 24:15, Ibid.)
=====================================
whensoever the 1st century Jerusalem Christians fled to Pella is when they recognized the AoD to have occurred

evidently it happened before Titus sacked the city, or else they would probably not have been able to escape

WHEN PRECISELY did they flee to Pella?
 
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Erik Nelson

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"By May, this [firs wall] was breached and the Second Wall also was taken shortly afterwards, leaving the defenders in possession of the Temple and the upper and lower city. The Jewish defenders were split into factions: John of Gischala's group murdered another faction leader, Eleazar ben Simon, whose men were entrenched in the forecourts of the Temple.

The enmities between John of Gischala and Simon bar Giora were papered over only when the Roman siege engineers began to erect ramparts. Titus then had a wall built to girdle the city in order to starve out the population more effectively. After several failed attempts to breach or scale the walls of the Fortress of Antonia, the Romans finally launched a secret attack, overwhelming the sleeping Zealots and taking the fortress by late July"

seems that the AoD was the murderous bloodshed in the temple in June, prompting Christians to escape before the circumvellation wall was complete and all remaining inhabitants were trapped inside
 
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