A simple fix for the Transgender issue.

Speedwell

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No. As I said before, if I am told the person who looks like a guy is female, I will assume they are another of countless females I've encountered that look like guys and I will assume they are biological females.
How interesting. I rarely meet a female who looks even at a superficial glance like a guy, much less countless numbers of them. But if the person looks like a guy, but is said to be a female because of transexual identification (which you might not know) how would you know to use the male pronoun in that case?
If I am told the person who looks like a guy is a they, a Zi or Xi, because those are gender pronouns, I will inform the person I am talking to that I don't address gender, I address biology.
Yet you will do it for post-op or post hormonal transsexual. No, at this point I am unsure how you make the distinction.
 
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Ken-1122

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This appears to be a shifting of the burden of proof. This is someone speaking as an expert in their field.
Did they answer my questions?

Do you have anything to support your claims that it is not biological other then your layman's opinion?
Below are a couple of definitions of "Gender"; as you can see, gender is more about social roles of men vs women, biology is not a part of the definition

Gender definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
Definition of gender | Dictionary.com
Gender
 
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Ken-1122

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But if the person looks like a guy, but is said to be a female because of transexual identification (which you might not know) how would you know to use the male pronoun in that case?
Transexual identification is not biology. If I don't know their biology, I will go by appearance.

Yet you will do it for post-op or post hormonal transsexual. No, at this point I am unsure how you make the distinction.
I said in the scenario that I would assume them to be a biological woman based on appearance.
 
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Belk

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Did they answer my questions?

Is there some reason they are required to? They are speaking to their specialty and it refutes your claims. That it does not answer some question you might have does not change that fact.

Below are a couple of definitions of "Gender"; as you can see, gender is more about social roles of men vs women, biology is not a part of the definition

Gender definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary
Definition of gender | Dictionary.com
Gender
Why would that be in any way relevant?
 
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Kylie

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My refusal to comply to their wishes is not based on disrespect, it’s based on disagreement. Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree without disrespecting.

You aren't treating people they way they wish to be treated because you think your opinion of them overrides their own wishes. Sure seems like disrespect to me.

No desire to learn? No desire to consider other points of view? Believe it or not, it is possible to know just as much as you know about an issue, to consider all viewpoints, and still disagree with you. Something you might wanna consider in future debates.

Refusing to treat someone they way they ask you to treat them is disrespect.
 
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Ken-1122

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Is there some reason they are required to? They are speaking to their specialty and it refutes your claims. That it does not answer some question you might have does not change that fact.
Actually it does change that fact. I claimed gender is based on what goes on inside your head, and biology is based on science regardless of what goes on inside your head. If this article is going to refute my claim (as you say it does) this article needs to show HOW gender is based on science and biology.

Why would that be in any way relevant?
I am going by the definition of Gender that shows it is not based on biology, to prove my point.
 
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Speedwell

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Actually it does change that fact. I claimed gender is based on what goes on inside your head, and biology is based on science regardless of what goes on inside your head. If this article is going to refute my claim (as you say it does) this article needs to show HOW gender is based on science and biology.


I am going by the definition of Gender that shows it is not based on biology, to prove my point.
And why is that relevant to the selection of third person pronouns?
 
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Ken-1122

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You aren't treating people they way they wish to be treated because you think your opinion of them overrides their own wishes. Sure seems like disrespect to me.



Refusing to treat someone they way they ask you to treat them is disrespect.
I want to be treated like Royalty; but everybody insists on treating me as a commoner. Is this disrespect? In the real world, you are not always going to be treated as you want to be treated; when this happens it is not a show of disrespect.
 
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Speedwell

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Earlier I stated I use the third person pronouns based on the person's biology; not what's going on inside of their heads.
OK, but you should be aware of how that comes across: "I don't think gender dysphoria is real and I'm going to act out my belief by refusing to use pronouns based on it."
 
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Ken-1122

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OK, but you should be aware of how that comes across: "I don't think gender dysphoria is real and I'm going to act out my belief by refusing to use pronouns based on it."
I think you are reading a little too much into this my friend. Hopefully I come across according to what I said; I don't address gender, I address biology instead. As far as knowing more than others know, whether gender dysphoria is real or not; none of that stuff isn't addressed according to what I said. If you have problems understanding this hopefully there are others who do not.
 
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Belk

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Actually it does change that fact. I claimed gender is based on what goes on inside your head, and biology is based on science regardless of what goes on inside your head. If this article is going to refute my claim (as you say it does) this article needs to show HOW gender is based on science and biology.

No it does not. An expert in the field is directly refuting your claims. If you feel that he is in error you need to show why your layman's opinion is more valid then his expert opinion.

I am going by the definition of Gender that shows it is not based on biology, to prove my point.

Definitions are descriptive not prescriptive. That a definition does not mention a specific aspect of a subject does not make am argument. Simply because a definition of the color red only mentions the wavelength of light does not somehow mean light is not made of photons.
 
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Kylie

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I want to be treated like Royalty; but everybody insists on treating me as a commoner. Is this disrespect? In the real world, you are not always going to be treated as you want to be treated; when this happens it is not a show of disrespect.

So because people don't bend over backwards to treat you like royalty, you don't care about treating people with basic dignity?
 
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Ken-1122

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No it does not. An expert in the field is directly refuting your claims. If you feel that he is in error you need to show why your layman's opinion is more valid then his expert opinion.
You've sorta got it backwards; if the "expert" wants to prove gender as currently described is based in biology, he needs to explain how it is based in biology; otherwise a skeptic like myself has reason to not believe him.

Definitions are descriptive not prescriptive. That a definition does not mention a specific aspect of a subject does not make am argument. Simply because a definition of the color red only mentions the wavelength of light does not somehow mean light is not made of photons.
That's why I listed several definitions of Gender as currently described that proves my point. Now if you have a description that proves otherwise, please provide it.
 
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Ken-1122

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So because people don't bend over backwards to treat you like royalty, you don't care about treating people with basic dignity?
I do treat people with basic dignity. Remember; basic dignity does not include being addressed or treated any way you wish.
 
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Speedwell

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I do treat people with basic dignity. Remember; basic dignity does not include being addressed or treated any way you wish.
Why not? It's not as if transgenders expected to be treated like royalty. No, I'm sorry, but you are giving the distinct impression of someone acting out.
 
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Belk

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You've sorta got it backwards; if the "expert" wants to prove gender as currently described is based in biology, he needs to explain how it is based in biology; otherwise a skeptic like myself has reason to not believe him.

Then I suggest you go challenge his peer reviewed research. That is the only place he is required to prove anything to those who are skeptical. The idea that you can refute the understandings of experts by simply claiming "I don't believe you, prove your claims to me" is farcical.

That's why I listed several definitions of Gender as currently described that proves my point. Now if you have a description that proves otherwise, please provide it.


You can post every definition in existence it still does nothing to support your argument.
 
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Ken-1122

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Then I suggest you go challenge his peer reviewed research. That is the only place he is required to prove anything to those who are skeptical. The idea that you can refute the understandings of experts by simply claiming "I don't believe you, prove your claims to me" is farcical.
Peer reviewed research? I doubt he has peer reviewed research on this issue, however if he does, please feel free to provide it and I would gladly look over it.
You can post every definition in existence it still does nothing to support your argument.
It doesn't support my argument to your satisfaction! (No amount of evidence could do that) However it does support the argument to mine; which is what we are talking about.
 
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Ken-1122

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Basic dignity like not speaking of them with the pronouns they prefer?
By George I've think she's got it!!! If I insist I am a vampire, a ware wolf, or some other fictional character that does not exist, and I insist on being addressed as one, are you being disrespectful by refusing my request? Of course not. The Golden Rule says to treat people the way you would want to be treated; not treat them as they want to be treated. Looks like you're finally getting it! (a little encouraged I must admit)
 
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