we are ALL PREDESTINED

JIMINZ said:

Look again, your the one who began your first post to me with said ad hominem
attack, your the one who began your statements to me by saying mine were insane, I was not rude to you, why then did you feel the need to insult me by your saying my conclusions were insane, aren't you able to make your point without insults?

By the way, it's you that need to refute what I said not me, I'm the one who made the statement you disagree with.

Sorry, but your the one who cannot MAKE your point with Scripture.

Show me what you got, just making bold statements like you originally did do not prove their validity or their truthfulness.

I could not care less what the Reformed Theologians believed, tell me what you have found to be true, without using them as some crutch of legitimacy for what you espouse to be true, I can't refute them.

Don't think by your posting every verse where the words Elect, Chosen are used without some sort of explanation as to why is proof of your belief, then think again.

I'm trying to understand what you believe and why you believe it, not what someone who lived hundreds of years ago thought on the matter, then how your Church taught you the very same beliefs, as though they are truth, when they are not.

Click to expand...

I showed the Bible verses proving that God's elect and chosen refer to more than the first Jewish church. I was assuming that you would understand that the Church at Colossae was not the first Jewish church and that the Colossian Christians being called the elect of God in Colossians 3:12, along with the other things I wrote, would prove you in error.

But maybe I assumed too much, and I might feel bad if you had not already told me "When you learn how to do your own research of things and cease taking the Beliefs of others without, researching the truth of the matter beforehand, then maybe, just maybe you will then understand." So holding you to your own statement I expect you to know the Bible already and that I shouldn't have to explain things to you like where Colossae is and that the epistle itself is clear that there were gentiles there whom Paul referred to as God's elect.

@renniks

No, @Jonaitis explained the paradox between sinners earning their condemnation and saints being delivered from theirs quite well.

I don't believe in "double predestination" because God did not predestine that the lost would sin. That was choices they made all on their own.

Scripture says "The wages of sin is death". But one has not earned those wages until they've actually done the work. Here is where that interesting interplay between the independent wills of creatures are counteracted by God's sovereign omnipresence.

Are we so predictable that God knows what we will do? I think principally speaking that's probably true. Yet God does not force any of us to act or react in certain ways.

Redemption is the operation of the Holy Ghost awakening a sinner and that awakened state causes a positive reaction to God's grace (thus in one sense making it "irresistible grace").

Now any creature is still in control of their actions and choices. Yet having a will that is independent of any other entities will or action, still is not a "free will" because that will is still encumbered by both the fall and (in the sense of humans) their own sin.

So in that sense "double predestination" is a misunderstanding of how God interacts in "real time" as the counter measure / agent of stability and change in the course of the direction the unfolding of time (and His plan) takes.

Now I know that's hard for us to wrap our heads around; but the qualities of being all powerful, all knowing, and everywhere present, immortal, immutable and from everlasting to everlasting are what make God - God.

Don't know if that makes sense to you?

I find it interesting how men are offended at the idea that God chose some to be saved. They rather boast that their own free will brought them to Christ, and that by their own free will they must constantly remain in Christ. They want to find something in themselves for a reason they are believers. It might be because of their experience, they had a different background growing up and so it was easier for them to receive the faith than others. It might have been their education, they were formerly familiar with some of the principles of the faith and understood it better than others. It might have been their intellect, they had better common sense to believe than the billions who remain lost today. They must credit to themselves for why they are Christians. I don't understand it.

The Calvinist understands that there was nothing inherent or experiential in them that made them receive the gospel, but rather that they were just as lost and blind as the rest until the grace of God found them and opened their eyes to behold Jesus as he truly is. They credit their faith and regeneracy to the pure mercy of God. They did nothing to make God save them, it was in his own will to choose them. If they had it their way still, they would remain lost and wandering in the dark.

I don't understand why people want to be responsible for their faith? I want Jesus to be the Author and Finisher of my faith instead.

Jonaitis said:

What did Jesus mean by this statement?

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." - John 6:44

Actually, what about this passage a little before it?

"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." - John 6:37-39

You can read the context if you want.

It appears that God influences the choices of some to believe and be saved. Wouldn't that mean the rest are purposed to be damned?

Click to expand...

The context to these Scriptures in the entire Gospel of John and really the entire Word of God. God draws people by His Word, God keeps people by His Word. The next verse of this very chapter John 6 says " It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45) It was already established, and would be later on yet, that those who won't heed the Bible revelation already in place (the Old Testament) cannot believe on Jesus with a faith God accepts. No Calvinistic predestination here; only predestination in the sense that those who won't heed the Word of God will be condemned and God will not force them irresistibly to change their mind (the very opposite of Calvinism).

John 5:43-47 "43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

Luke 16:29-31 "29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

ajcarey said:

The context to these Scriptures in the entire Gospel of John and really the entire Word of God. God draws people by His Word, God keeps people by His Word. The next verse of this very chapter John 6 says " It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45) It was already established, and would be later on yet, that those who won't heed the Bible revelation already in place (the Old Testament) cannot believe on Jesus with a faith God accepts. No Calvinistic predestination here; only predestination in the sense that those who won't heed the Word of God will be condemned and God will not force them irresistibly to change their mind (the very opposite of Calvinism).

John 5:43-47 "43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

Luke 16:29-31 "29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Click to expand...

None of the verses you posted supports your argument. Actually, John 6:45 favors our argument strongly.

Here is another passage following my last reply:

So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10:24-30

^ this one affirms the passages in John 6. Notice the order of the wording. They do not believe because they are not among his sheep. You must first be among his flock before you believe in him. And all those who believe, who are his sheep, they cannot fall away. We rest in our Savior's hands, nay, our Father's hands too.

Why do you want to glory in your free will? Glory in the grace of God that he loved you for nothing but simply because he wanted to! You deserved none of all that he gave you, how could you then claim that you are a believer for anything you had? You are what you are by the undeserved mercy of God, you believe because he wanted you to believe and thus be saved. You are obedient and repentant, because he will finish the good work which he begun in you (Philippians 1:6). Credit everything to God.

Jonaitis said:

I find it interesting how men are offended at the idea that God chose some to be saved. They rather boast that their own free will brought them to Christ, and that by their own free will they must constantly remain in Christ. They want to find something in themselves for a reason they are believers. It might be because of their experience, they had a different background growing up and so it was easier for them to receive the faith than others. It might have been their education, they were formerly familiar with some of the principles of the faith and understood it better than others. It might have been their intellect, they had better common sense to believe than the billions who remain lost today. They must credit to themselves for why they are Christians. I don't understand it.

The Calvinist understands that there was nothing inherent or experiential in them that made them receive the gospel, but rather that they were just as lost and blind as the rest until the grace of God found them and opened their eyes to behold Jesus as he truly is. They credit their faith and regeneracy to the pure mercy of God. They did nothing to make God save them, it was in his own will to choose them. If they had it their way still, they would remain lost and wandering in the dark.

I don't understand why people want to be responsible for their faith? I want Jesus to be the Author and Finisher of my faith instead.

Click to expand...

I find it interesting that Calvinists want to say we are not responsible for our faith when the Bible says over and over that it is our responsibility glorify God as God and to appropriate His gracious promises; and that doing so gives Him glory.

I find it interesting that Calvinists want non-Calvinists to believe they have no responsibility for their faith yet they place responsibility upon non-calvinists to accept their arguments and believe in Calvinism.

I find it interesting that though the Calvinists say that they had no part at all in receiving the gospel, they implicitly take credit for their understanding of Reformed Theology and imply also that non-Calvinists need to work hard and use their intellect to study Reformed Theology and attain the same grasp of it that that they have.

I find it interesting that Calvinists don't recognize that if their theology be true that their God would have purposed and ordained all the resistance and unbelief that there is towards the Calvinism which they promote.

lambofgod43985889 said:

well, it's an intense debate, according to calvinism we are predestined so:
-the catholic will keep being catholic
-the protestant will keep being evangelical
-the christian orthodox will keep being orthodox
-the follower of judaism will keep their religion

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what your label is; Jesus changes hearts, and then people let go of their labels. The Bible says we are "called children of God." (1 John 3:1)

We "all" were "children of wrath, just as the others." (in Ephesians 2:3) "Children of wrath" was our Biblical label, until we "trusted in Christ" (Ephesians 1:12). So, believing means trusting.

And Romans 8:29 says we are predestined not to keep some religious label, but we are predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus.

JAL said:

Tell us which issues you are currently infallible on - and I hope it includes the issue of how to properly evangelize,

Click to expand...

Scripture tells you to interpret it by using itself. "For who shall we teach doctrine....Line upon line.... precept upon precept."

ajcarey said:

cannot believe on Jesus with a faith God accepts

Click to expand...

Faith is something God imparts; so actually it isn't "you" faith. It's His fidelity that causes one to believe.

FAITH - I Sam. 26:23, Rom 12:3, Ga1 2:16 & 20, 3:2 & 5 & 22, Eph 3:12, Phil 3:9, Col 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thess 1:3 (faith is a work) II Thess 1:11

Jonaitis said:

I find it interesting how men are offended at the idea that God chose some to be saved. They rather boast that their own free will brought them to Christ, and that by their own free will they must constantly remain in Christ. They want to find something in themselves for a reason they are believers. It might be because of their experience, they had a different background growing up and so it was easier for them to receive the faith than others. It might have been their education, they were formerly familiar with some of the principles of the faith and understood it better than others. It might have been their intellect, they had better common sense to believe than the billions who remain lost today. They must credit to themselves for why they are Christians. I don't understand it.

The Calvinist understands that there was nothing inherent or experiential in them that made them receive the gospel, but rather that they were just as lost and blind as the rest until the grace of God found them and opened their eyes to behold Jesus as he truly is. They credit their faith and regeneracy to the pure mercy of God. They did nothing to make God save them, it was in his own will to choose them. If they had it their way still, they would remain lost and wandering in the dark.

I don't understand why people want to be responsible for their faith? I want Jesus to be the Author and Finisher of my faith instead.

Click to expand...

I find it interesting that Calvinists want to say we are not responsible for our faith when the Bible says over and over that it is our responsibility glorify God as God and to appropriate His gracious promises; and that doing so gives Him glory.

I find it interesting that Calvinists want non-Calvinists to believe they have no responsibility for their faith yet they place responsibility upon non-calvinists to accept their arguments and believe in Calvinism.

I find it interesting that though the Calvinists say that they had no part at all in receiving the gospel, they implicitly take credit for their understanding of Reformed Theology and imply also that non-Calvinists need to work hard and use their intellect to study Reformed Theology and attain the same grasp of it that that they have.

I find it interesting that Calvinists don't recognize that if their theology be true that their God would have purposed and ordained all the resistance and unbelief that there is towards the Calvinism which they promote.

Jonaitis said:

None of the verses you posted supports your argument. Actually, John 6:45 favors our argument strongly.

Here is another passage following my last reply:

So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10:24-30

^ this one affirms the passages in John 6. Notice the order of the wording. They do not believe because they are not among his sheep. You must first be among his flock before you believe in him. And all those who believe, who are his sheep, they cannot fall away. We rest in our Savior's hands, nay, our Father's hands too.

Why do you want to glory in your free will? Glory in the grace of God that he loved you for nothing but simply because he wanted to! You deserved none of all that he gave you, how could you then claim that you are a believer for anything you had? You are what you are by the undeserved mercy of God, you believe because he wanted you to believe and thus be saved. You are obedient and repentant, because he will finish the good work which he begun in you (Philippians 1:6). Credit everything to God.

Click to expand...

No, John 5:43-47 and Luke 16:29-31 do support my argument. And then the passage you quote supports my argument even more. When one repents to heed His Word and be His disciple they become one of His. Jesus was rebuking these Jewish Leaders for resisting Bible revelation, not for their not being predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world.

What type of evil, sick tyrant would He be for setting up such a situation and giving such a rebuke? And why do you contradict yourself and think I and other non-calvinists have freewill so as to receive your arguments and believe in Calvinism anyways?

ajcarey said:

I find it interesting that Calvinists want to say we are not responsible for our faith when the Bible says over and over that it is our responsibility glorify God as God and to appropriate His gracious promises; and that doing so gives Him glory.

I find it interesting that Calvinists want non-Calvinists to believe they have no responsibility for their faith yet they place responsibility upon non-calvinists to accept their arguments and believe in Calvinism.

I find it interesting that though the Calvinists say that they had no part at all in receiving the gospel, they implicitly take credit for their understanding of Reformed Theology and imply also that non-Calvinists need to work hard and use their intellect to study Reformed Theology and attain the same grasp of it that that they have.

I find it interesting that Calvinists don't recognize that if their theology be true that their God would have purposed and ordained all the resistance and unbelief that there is towards the Calvinism which they promote.

Click to expand...

Don't confuse responsibility for capability that is now lost because of sin. Just because the freedom to obey God was forfeited in the garden, does not negate the responsibility to obey.

For as much as you attempt to elevate yourself above both other men and ultimately God via your own "power to believe" pride goes before the fall.

The proof of pride is one's offense to the very concept that faith is imparted.

The Righterzpen said:

Scripture tells you to interpret it by using itself. "For who shall we teach doctrine....Line upon line.... precept upon precept."



Faith is something God imparts; so actually it isn't "you" faith. It's His fidelity that causes one to believe.

FAITH - I Sam. 26:23, Rom 12:3, Ga1 2:16 & 20, 3:2 & 5 & 22, Eph 3:12, Phil 3:9, Col 2:12, Jude 3, 1 Thess 1:3 (faith is a work) II Thess 1:11

Click to expand...

God gave His Word and expects people to take him at His Word. Romans 10:16-17 "16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." The more experience one has in taking God at His Word and living by faith, the more faith God has imparted to them as they cooperate with His grace and seen His faithfulness.

If faith be unconditionally and irresistibly imparted by God like Reformed Theology says, and if Reformed Theology be representative of Christianity, then why would you expect me to receive it unless God unconditionally and irresistibly imparted faith to me to do so?

The Righterzpen said:

Don't confuse responsibility for capability that is now lost because of sin. Just because the freedom to obey God was forfeited in the garden, does not negate the responsibility to obey."

Freedom to obey God was not forfeited in the Garden. You snuck that premise in there. Adam had freedom to disobey before he fell; and man's ability to repent and obey God is not lost due to the Fall.

"For as much as you attempt to elevate yourself above both other men and ultimately God via your own "power to believe" pride goes before the fall."

Scripture please. Where the Bible define pride like this?

"The proof of pride is one's offense to the very concept that faith is imparted.

Click to expand...

"

Again, please provide Scripture. And even if you were Biblical and right, by your own doctrine you would still be proud for thinking I had the capablility to receive Biblical and right doctrine in my fallen state. Shame on you for ascribing such power to a fallen creature like myself!

ajcarey said:

I showed the Bible verses proving that God's elect and chosen refer to more than the first Jewish church. I was assuming that you would understand that the Church at Colossae was not the first Jewish church and that the Colossian Christians being called the elect of God in Colossians 3:12, along with the other things I wrote, would prove you in error.

Click to expand...

Here are some verses for you to ponder, these verses expressly describe who the ELECT are, "The Jewish Believers of that time" not the Gentiles, because Jesus did not come for the Gentiles, His Ministry was to the Jewish Nation as a People.

Mat. 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

These lost sheep spoken of by Jesus were the Elect, for which He came.

John 6:38-40
38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Salvation came to the Gentiles only because of the Rejection of Jesus by the Jews as their Messiah.

Rom 11:1-10
1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Paul is speaking about the Jewish Nation not receiving Salvation but the Elect did, the Jewish People were blinded to the fact that Jesus was their Messiah, but the Elect saw who he was and accepted Him as such.

These verses are the clearest example of who was being spoken of by Jesus when he used the word ELECT, Paul then with full understanding knew who they were addressing whenever they spoke.

Jesus speaks here of the ELECT as being the CHOSEN

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Remember the Temple was to be destroyed in 70ad.

As the Elect, as the Chosen of God He was taking them out of Harms Way, as He did in former times with Noah, Lot.

God protects those He Chooses to Call His Elect.

This is the simplest explanation of this issue of who the Elect actually are, you will either see and understand what I have said or you will not.

ajcarey said:

The more experience one has in taking God at His Word and living by faith, the more faith God has imparted to them as they cooperate with His grace and seen His faithfulness.

Click to expand...

That's a works gospel. If God's sitting around waiting for those dead in trespass and sin to respond; He's going to be sitting around for all of eternity!

ajcarey said:

If faith be unconditionally and irresistibly imparted by God like Reformed Theology says, and if Reformed Theology be representative of Christianity, then why would you expect me to receive it unless God unconditionally and irresistibly imparted faith to me to do so?

Click to expand...

I'm not the Holy Ghost. It's above my pay grade to make you believe. My job is to preach the gospel. What God does with that is His business.

ajcarey said:

"

Again, please provide Scripture. And even if you were Biblical and right, by your own doctrine you would still be proud for thinking I had the capablility to receive Biblical and right doctrine in my fallen state. Shame on you for ascribing such power to a fallen creature like myself!

Click to expand...

I gave you a whole slew of Scriptures about faith being a work of God.

That's between you and God whether or not you come to believe the Scripture.

I will tell you this though; the first time I heard the doctrine of election after becoming a believer - I realized; yeah, that's true - it couldn't be any other way.

Shortly there after though - the whole concept of God having sovereign control over that both gave me comfort but also scared the hell out of me!

JIMINZ said:

Here are some verses for you to ponder, these verses expressly describe who the ELECT are, "The Jewish Believers of that time" not the Gentiles, because Jesus did not come for the Gentiles, His Ministry was to the Jewish Nation as a People.

Mat. 15:24
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

These lost sheep spoken of by Jesus were the Elect, for which He came.

John 6:38-40
38) For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39) And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Salvation came to the Gentiles only because of the Rejection of Jesus by the Jews as their Messiah.

Rom 11:1-10
1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2) God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3) Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8) (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
9) And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10) Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Paul is speaking about the Jewish Nation not receiving Salvation but the Elect did, the Jewish People were blinded to the fact that Jesus was their Messiah, but the Elect saw who he was and accepted Him as such.

These verses are the clearest example of who was being spoken of by Jesus when he used the word ELECT, Paul then with full understanding knew who they were addressing whenever they spoke.

Jesus speaks here of the ELECT as being the CHOSEN

Mark 13:20
And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Remember the Temple was to be destroyed in 70ad.

As the Elect, as the Chosen of God He was taking them out of Harms Way, as He did in former times with Noah, Lot.

God protects those He Chooses to Call His Elect.

This is the simplest explanation of this issue of who the Elect actually are, you will either see and understand what I have said or you will not.

Click to expand...

No, I sure won't. The very passage you quoted in Romans 11 proves that all believers in Christ, Jew and gentile, are elect in Christ. If you're going to use Matthew 15:24 to claim what you're claiming, then you'd have no basis to say that gentiles are eligible for salvation at all. Jesus was speaking about who He was sent to preach to in His earthly preaching ministry. Salvation is of the Jews and the gospel started among the Jews and was thence sent to all men. Same gospel, same promises, same privileges for all who identify with and worship Israel's Messiah. Every believer in Christ is called the Israel of God in Galatians 6, Ephesians 2 shows how gentiles who believe in Christ are partakers of Israel's promises as does Romans 11- when a gentile believes in Christ he is graft into Israel; unbelieving Jews fell from Israel's promises and need to be grafted back into their own olive tree by turning to their own Messiah by repentance and faith. The Apostle Paul called gentile Christians "the elect of God" in Colossians 3:12. Should I believe him or you?

The Righterzpen said:

That's a works gospel. If God's sitting around waiting for those dead in trespass and sin to respond; He's going to be sitting around for all of eternity!"

If those dead in trespass and sin wait around for God to irresistibly cause them to repent and believe they are going to burn in hell all of eternity. You make a mockery of Scriptures like Isaiah 55:6-7, Jeremiah 8:20 etc.

The Apostle Paul was a heretic by your definition of "a works gospel"- and I'll believe him instead.
Acts 26:19-23 "19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: 23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."


"I'm not the Holy Ghost. It's above my pay grade to make you believe. My job is to preach the gospel. What God does with that is His business.

Click to expand...

"

You expect me to heed your doctrine which implies I have the capability to do so . You expect the very thing you are arguing against. If you tell me otherwise I will not believe you- and even if you really didn't have such an expectation if you were logical you'd understand that if your doctrine were true you'd be contending against God himself right now who would be withholding grace from me to receive your doctrine.

ajcarey said:

No, I sure won't. The very passage you quoted in Romans 11 proves that all believers in Christ, Jew and gentile, are elect in Christ. If you're going to use Matthew 15:24 to claim what you're claiming, then you'd have no basis to say that gentiles are eligible for salvation at all. Jesus was speaking about who He was sent to preach to in His earthly preaching ministry. Salvation is of the Jews and the gospel started among the Jews and was thence sent to all men. Same gospel, same promises, same privileges for all who identify with and worship Israel's Messiah. Every believer in Christ is called the Israel of God in Galatians 6, Ephesians 2 shows how gentiles who believe in Christ are partakers of Israel's promises as does Romans 11- when a gentile believes in Christ he is graft into Israel; unbelieving Jews fell from Israel's promises and need to be grafted back into their own olive tree by turning to their own Messiah by repentance and faith. The Apostle Paul called gentile Christians "the elect of God" in Colossians 3:12. Should I believe him or you?

Click to expand...

One sentence in and I know there is no use in going any further with you, your eyes you have closed that you would not see, and your ears you have shut that you would not understand.

What I see is that You, Righterzpen, and Jonaitis all believe the same thing, the only things you are arguing about are the details, the mechanics of your shared Doctrines.

Calvin was wrong, both he and you as well as them have all assumed the Elect are all Christians, (Regardless) you just can't accept what he says about Predestination, while you on the other hand have a completely different take on it, it is all semantics to you guys.

The Righterzpen said:

I gave you a whole slew of Scriptures about faith being a work of God.

That's between you and God whether or not you come to believe the Scripture.

I will tell you this though; the first time I heard the doctrine of election after becoming a believer - I realized; yeah, that's true - it couldn't be any other way.

Shortly there after though - the whole concept of God having sovereign control over that both gave me comfort but also scared the hell out of me!

Click to expand...

Jesus wasn't opposing Himself when He marveled at people's unbelief. By your doctrine He would have been marveling at how God had withheld faith from the unbelieving. The very fact that God in the Scriptures sets some men as standards of condemnation towards others shows that faith is man's responsibility, and that this being so does not elevate man. Who were the proud ones- the men of Nineveh who repented and did works meet for repentance at Jonah's preaching or the unbelieving Jews who didn't repent when Christ was in the midst of them? According to your doctrine they were all equally depraved and neither one is more worthy than the other. Yet Jesus said that the men of Nineveh would condemn the unbelieving Jews on Judgment Day. The Ninevites were humble because they agreed with God and turned to do things His way. The unbelieving Jews were proud because they didn't do so. Views on human capability weren't the issue- that is, human capability to actually obey God- views on human capability to live contrary to God is another matter. But according to your doctrine the unregenerate are incapable of doing anything about that anyways- so they'll continue in their path unless and until God irresistibly causes them to repent and change their minds. And if such a thing in theory should/would happen, how they felt about it would not matter the slightest bit anyways.

ajcarey said:

Jesus wasn't opposing Himself when He marveled at people's unbelief. By your doctrine He would have been marveling at how God had withheld faith from the unbelieving. The very fact that God in the Scriptures sets some men as standards of condemnation towards others shows that faith is man's responsibility, and that this being so does not elevate man. Who were the proud ones- the men of Nineveh who repented and did works meet for repentance at Jonah's preaching or the unbelieving Jews who didn't repent when Christ was in the midst of them? According to your doctrine they were all equally depraved and neither one is more worthy than the other. Yet Jesus said that the men of Nineveh would condemn the unbelieving Jews on Judgment Day. The Ninevites were humble because they agreed with God and turned to do things His way. The unbelieving Jews were proud because they didn't do so. Views on human capability weren't the issue- that is, human capability to actually obey God- views on human capability to live contrary to God is another matter. But according to your doctrine the unregenerate are incapable of doing anything about that anyways- so they'll continue in their path unless and until God irresistibly causes them to repent and change their minds. And if such a thing in theory should/would happen, how they felt about it would not matter the slightest bit anyways.

Click to expand...

Do you believe you are wicked in need of repentance and bankrupt of faith?