Make a list of all your SDA doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Who

Daniel Marsh

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You do not know your history as well as you think you do.

“Question: How prove you that the church had power to command feasts and holydays?
“Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of and therefore they fondly contradict themselves by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same church.
“Question: Have you any other way of proving that the church has power to institute festivals of precept?
“Answer: Had she not such power, she could not a done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; -she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day of the week, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.” Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism On the Obedience Due to the Church, 3rd edition, Chapter 2, p. 174 (Imprimatur, John Cardinal McCloskey, Archbishop of New York).

“The Catholic church for over one thousand years before the existence of a Protestant, by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...The Protestant World at its birth found the Christian Sabbath too strongly entrenched to run counter to its existence; it was therefore placed under the necessity of acquiescing in the arrangement, thus implying the (Catholic) Church’s right to change the day, for over three hundred years. The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day, the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the Protestant World.” James Cardinal Gibbons in the Catholic Mirror, September 23, 1983.
“Sunday is our mark or authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.” Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

The first Sunday law: Emperor Constantine was never an official Pope: Official line of succession goes from Paul to Linus to Anacletus. However, he is the first acknowledged Christian to institute Sunday observance laws.

The text of Constantine's Sunday Law of 321 A.D. is :

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them the second time." Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; translated in History of the Christian Church, Philip Schaff, D.D., (7-vol.ed.) Vol. III, p.380. New York, 1884
National Sunday law - RationalWiki
National Sunday Law
False evidence of Sunday Law
Why the “Nation Sunday Law” theory is a hoax
 
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Daniel Marsh

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But the Christians kept the 7th day Sabbath at first. When Christians began to be confused with Jews is when the change took place---they did not want to be associated with the Jews and adopted Sunday instead of the 7th day Sabbath. It is why the Christians began distancing themselves from Jews, it was the easiest thing to do.

Sabbath keepers throughout history

  • PAUL
    "And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" (Acts 17:2) Did Christ fail to inform Paul on the road to Damascus that there's now a new sabbath? Or rather does the silence of Christ speak volumes against the papal sabbath???

    PAUL AND THE GENTILES
    "And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.

    Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."

    And get this: The Bible does not say it is the "old Jewish Sabbath that was passed away," but the Spirit of God, writing the Book of Acts some 30 years after the crucifixion, calls it "the next Sabbath."

    JOHN
    "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Rev.1:10 (Mark 2:28, Isa.58:13, Ex.20:10, Clearly show the Sabbath to be the Lord's day).
    The term "Lord's day" in reference to sunday came later. The Biblical meaning for Lord's day is the day that God calls "My holy day" and the day that Jesus said He is Lord of.

    JOSEPHUS
    "There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.

    PHILO
    Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99

    So we have incontrovertible proof that the observance of sunday was NOT practiced by the apostolic church of the first century. Although the poison of apostasy had already begun, it did not reach the ascendancy until the passage of a few more centuries.

    The next installment will show the historical record of the early christians observing the true seventh day Sabbath in the second century A.D.
Sabbath Observance Through The Centuries - The Second Century A.D.

  • -----------------------------------------------
    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).

    EARLY CHRISTIANS - 2nd Century
    "It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77

    Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. It illustrates the apostasy that Paul the Apostle foretold of when he spoke about a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.

    "From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.

    Sunday observance as a way to distance themselves from the Jews was seen as early as AD 110:

    If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things [i.e., the Jews] have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death … (Ignatius, Letter to the Magnesians 9)

    That in no way has anything to do with what the bible says is the Sabbath. I have been waiting for over 35 years for that one verse that says: God has changed His 7th day Sabbath from the 7th day to the 1st day of the week,. Any argument about it would be over.
    What God has written with His own hand on stone--only He can change.


I do not see any primary sources in your above quotes.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday
1 Corinthians 16:2 On the first day of every week, each of you should take some of your money and put it in a special place. Save up as much as you can from what you are blessed with. Then you will not have to gather it all after I come.

Mark 16:2 Very early on that day, the first day of the week, the women were going to the tomb. It was very early after sunrise.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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That is all fine and good.

But the most holy portion of the sanctuary is about judgment and that is what Jesus our High Priest is doing today.

We will be judged by the law of GOD which is in the ark of the testament which is below the mercy seat.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Exodus 25
8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Jesus showed Moses the tabernacle in Heaven.

Revelation 22:12
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The reward is eternal life or destruction. Our Judge, Jesus Christ, makes the decision which reward we will receive.

I can share more about how Jesus in the Heavenly sanctuary is paralleling the High priest's duties in the earth sanctuary if you are interested.

Psalm 77:13
Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?



Original Happy Camper in post #45:

<< But the most holy portion of the sanctuary is about judgment and that is what Jesus our High Priest is doing today.

We will be judged by the law of GOD which is in the ark of the testament which is below the mercy seat. >>


Original Happy Camper, you say that Jesus is doing something in the sanctuary, the Heavenly Tabernacle, today. SDA doctrine says that Jesus is performing some cleansing service in the Tabernacle. Here is what the New Testament says that Jesus is doing today.


19 So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mark 16:19 RSV

66 When day came, the assembly of the elders of the people gathered together, both chief priests and scribes; and they led him away to their council, and they said, 67 “If you are the Christ, tell us.” But he said to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe; 68 and if I ask you, you will not answer. 69 But from now on the Son of man shall be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
Luke 22: 66-69 RSV

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Colossians 3: 1 RSV

He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high ...
Hebrews 1:3 RSV

But when Christhad offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, then to wait until his enemies should be made a stool for his feet.
Hebrews 10: 12-13 RSV

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
Hebrews 12: 1-2 RSV


According to Hebrews chapter Ten, Jesus isn't performing some necessary service in a Heavenly Tabernacle. Instead, He is waiting for the Second Coming and the Judgment, when His enemies will be "made a stool."[/QUOTE]

None of your proof texts proves that Jesus is sitting in final judgement today in heaven.

Romans 8:31-35 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
God’s Love in Christ Jesus
31 So what should we say about this? If God is for us, no one can stand against us. And God is with us. 32 He even let his own Son suffer for us. God gave his Son for all of us. So now with Jesus, God will surely give us all things. 33 Who can accuse the people God has chosen? No one! God is the one who makes them right. 34 Who can say that God’s people are guilty? No one! Christ Jesus died for us, but that is not all. He was also raised from death. And now he is at God’s right side, speaking to him for us. 35 Can anything separate us from Christ’s love? Can trouble or problems or persecution separate us from his love? If we have no food or clothes or face danger or even death, will that separate us from his love?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Your missing the point altogether.

The Roman world did not honor a Sabbath day during the early fourth century when Constantine declared Sunday as a rest day for the Roman empire.

The Roman world in the preceding centuries did not have a day of rest until Constantine's legislation in 321 AD.

please quote the primary source with a link to it.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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A Roman Christian could not observe a day of rest on a Saturday because they worked seven says a week, before that declaration by Constantine in 321 AD.

Early Christian literature in the first few centuries that comment on Sabbath days. Are not talking about Romans resting on Saturday because the Roman world, did not have a day of rest in any week of the year.

You may have misunderstood the early church authors, when they mention Sabbath days. They are referring to a holy day but not a day of rest, same goes for the first day in the Roman Empire.

Constantine allowed Christians to go to church on Sunday with His declaration. Before Constantine's declaration Christians rose early in the morning before work to break the bread.

There were certainly no Romans taking Saturday off within the Roman Empire before 321 AD.

I'm not ignoring the Sabbath dialogue during history, just attempting to rectify a deep misunderstanding that exists.

I want to see the primary sources please with a link to them.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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This is simply not true.

There was no day of rest in the Roman Empire for a Christian before Constantine. You misunderstand what Constantine's declaration is doing, Constantine is saying Christians can go to church during the day on Sunday!

I want to see the primary sources please with a link to them.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Impossible during the centuries before Constantine for any Roman citizen. There was no day of rest before Constantine.

That is what you have been taught and that is one of the available interpretations.

You understand that the Protestants rejected the seven letters written by Ignatius don't you.
These days the majority of scholars do not reject the letters of Ignatius anymore, they are now valid letters.

Letter to the Magnesians, chapter nine.

If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death.

You did not give any primary sources with links to where you are quoting from.
I want them from newadvent.org
 
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Daniel Marsh

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I already stated Constantine w....
St. Justin is the first Christian writer to call the day Sunday (I Apol., lxvii) in the celebrated passage in which he describes the worship offered by the early Christians on that day to God. The fact that they met together and offered public worship on Sunday necessitated a certain rest from work on that day. However, Tertullian (202) is the first writer who expressly mentions the Sunday rest: "We, however (just as tradition has taught us), on the day of the Lord's Resurrection ought to guard not only against kneeling, but every posture and office of solicitude, deferring even our businesses lest we give any place to the devil" ("De orat.", xxiii; cf. "Ad nation.", I, xiii; "Apolog.", xvi).CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Sunday
CHURCH FATHERS: Synod of Laodicea (4th Century)

CHURCH FATHERS: Letter 55 (St. Augustine)
www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102055.htm
The Lord's day, however, has been made known not to the Jews, but to Christians, by the resurrection of the Lord, and from Him it began to have the festive ...

CHURCH FATHERS: Apostolic Constitutions, Book VII
www.newadvent.org/fathers/07157.htm
But keep the Sabbath, and the Lord's day festival; because the former is the memorial of the creation, and the latter of the resurrection. But there is one only ...

NEW ADVENT: Search
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Did you notice, 'and, if they can, resting then as Christians'. So it appears that not all Christians could even rest on Sunday let alone on Saturday.

The council of Laodicea was not held until 364 AD which is some thirty years after the edict by Constantine in 321 AD.

I have previously researched the council of Laodicea.

Once again the same critical error exists. If Christians are resting on the Sabbath day, then Saturday must have been a rest day in the Roman Empire. So the Roman Empire must have had Saturday and Sunday as rest days in 364 AD?

I am aware that the Sabbath was a rest day in Israel in the first century. But I have no historical sources to confirm that the Sabbath day, was a day of rest in the Roman Empire during the first century.

One could attend a synagogue on the Sabbath day but a day of rest on the Sabbath would not be possible. For any Roman citizens in the first century; this is the reason for Constantine's declaration in the fourth century. Constantine declared a day of rest on Sunday but not for everyone.

There seems to be so much historical confusion.

That is because they do not use primary sources and when they do they read their view into the text. Example, Lord's Day.

Ezekiel 30:3 That day is near! Yes, the Lord’s day for judging is near. It will be a cloudy day, the time for judging the nations.

Zephaniah 1:7 Be silent before the Lord God, because the Lord’s day for judging the people is coming soon. The Lord has prepared his sacrifice, and he has told his invited guests to get ready.

This shows how the phrase lord's day is used.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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I am not judging anyone, just polite discussion.

HEY BROTHER

I was not implying that you are judging anyone. I should have underlined or bolded the last portion of the verse I quoted

Your brother in Christ
 
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D.A. Wright

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If we use history, you deny it. History is revisable. You win.
If we use Bible, you deny it. It must read as you want it to read. You win.

You win.

The man, convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion, still.


“Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things—they will meet their end together with the one they follow,” declares the Lord.
“As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”
(Isaiah 66:17)(Isaiah 66:22-24)


I pray that these scriptures do not apply to the ones who may read them.
 
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mmksparbud

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None of your proof texts proves that Jesus is writing down people's sins.

Since, Jesus is God and as such is all knowing there is no need for him to do that.

I didn't say Jesus was writing down anyone's sins. Those that ask for forgiveness, get it, and their sins are forgiven. His blood us what clovers those sins. The sins that are written---and it doesn't say by whom---are the sins of the lost. The names of the saved are written in the book of life.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Jesus doesn't need to do that. However, Jesus does open up the books for the benefit of everyone, lost and saved. The lost will acknowledge the justice of God, the saved will see why the lost were lost. Everyone will be satisfied with the justice of God.
 
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