LDS LDS Jesus Could Have Lost His Godhood

Peter1000

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Completely dishonest, it is Mormonism that twists, ignores,dodges, misrepresents Christian scriptures & continues to post false the JS teachings while refusing to answer direct questions.
I can't believe you actually said, "refusing to answer direct questions", are you kidding me. You are the person that ignores scripture that doesn't fit your narative, dodges questions, misrepresents Christian scripture because, again you have your little band of believers that only follow Paul and only 1/2 of him, and hardly anything Jesus. So until you can quit this behavior, surely do not complain about us refusing to answer direct questions.
 
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Pedra

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I disagree with you on understanding scripture because we read all scripture in the bible. When you read all the scripture, especially on how to be saved, it is different than your 2 or 3 verses from the teachings of Paul. So if there is anyone deficient in understanding the scriptures it is you.

You never engage in a discussion to defend your religion, you just rag about JS. I believe the reason you do not engage is because the whole bible is your enemy, and if you can't just concentrate on your 3 or 4 scriptures that you have memorized, you are lost and confused. If I am wrong, then engage. I am not a monster and can be very generous in a discussion. I just feel like you cannot discuss the bible because you do not know the bible. There is no other explanation for not defending your positions.
FYI , Peter, I don't have to defend Christianity, it's Mormonisms FALSE teachings are what are being exposed here. You rejected the Bible as it was written in favor of your false prophet who tickled your ears with thoughts of being a god on your own planet & having a goddess to rule with, having divine sex & producing "spirit-children" , the males who will all be potential little gods in their own rights.
Mormonism does not believe in the Bible scripture as it WAS given by GOD, but Mormonism's focus, its worship & BELIEFS are on the doctrines & spiritual fables of Joseph Smith & his additions to the Bible. You guys like to dodge or tell half-truths to hide the SHOCKING spiritual teachings & egotistical fables of Joseph Smith.
Mormons are lying or deceived when they claim they are Christian, there is nothing Christian in Mormonism & they know it. Mormons consider themselves superior and that is so the opposite of true Christianity.
 
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Peter1000

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This is going to absolutely destroy any dreams they may have of gaining converts in the Middle East/North Africa region! :D
You will be surprised one day how effective the Bible in conjuction with the BOM will be in converting the middle east.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Expectations are not commandments. That does not change what Jesus said by one jot or tittle.

(New Testament | Matthew 5:18 - 19)

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

James 4:17 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
17 If you fail to do what you know is right, you are sinning.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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And can you think of a better person who lives this lifestyle to present to the Lord Jesus Christ at the judgement day? I don't think so, this person is well grounded in their Christian religion.

Give a list of what is required of a new person in Christ from your church?

BTW, gay people can go to the temple. Even straight people can go to the temple.

Pray
Go to Worship and Sunday School
Attend Bible Study
Study the Bible at home
Pray
 
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Peter1000

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FYI , Peter, I don't have to defend Christianity, it's Mormonisms FALSE teachings are what are being exposed here. You rejected the Bible as it was written in favor of your false prophet who tickled your ears with thoughts of being a god on your own planet & having a goddess to rule with, having divine sex & producing "spirit-children" , the males who will all be potential little gods in their own rights.
Mormonism does not believe in the Bible scripture as it WAS given by GOD, but Mormonism's focus, its worship & BELIEFS are on the doctrines & spiritual fables of Joseph Smith & his additions to the Bible. You guys like to dodge or tell half-truths to hide the SHOCKING spiritual teachings & egotistical fables of Joseph Smith.
Mormons are lying or deceived when they claim they are Christian, there is nothing Christian in Mormonism & they know it. Mormons consider themselves superior and that is so the opposite of true Christianity.
Just do not accuse us of not answering your questions. You answer none.

This is not a sight to expose Mormonism. Look at the parameters of this section of the forum.
This is a sight to have discussion with Mormons and learn what we really believe and see if you can help us understand the truth.

You are not following the objectives. All you do is rag about JS, and how illiterate we are of the bible. Not doing much to help us move closer to your Christianity.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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It should be noted that a study of the Trinity should not be undertaken apart from a study of the nature of God.

  1. There Is One God
    1. One God: Explicit Statements
      1. OT: Deut. 4:35; 4:39; 32:39; 2 Sam. 22:32; Isa. 37:20: 43:10; 44:6-8; 45:5; 45:14; 45:21-22; 46:9
      2. NT: John 5:44; Rom. 3:30; 16:27; 1 Cor. 8:4-6; Gal. 3:20; Eph. 4:6; 1 Tim. 1:17; 1 Tim. 2:5; James 2:19; Jude 25
    2. None like God (in his essence)
      1. Explicit statements: Ex. 8:10; 9:14; 15:11; 2 Sam. 7:22; 1 Kgs. 8:23; 1 Chr. 17:20; Psa. 86:8; Isa. 40:18, 40:25: 44:7; 46:5, 46:9; Jer. 10:6-7; Micah 7:18
      2. Being like God a Satanic lie: Gen. 3:5; Isa. 14:14; John 8:44
      3. Fallen man become "like God" only in that he took upon himself to know good and evil, not that he acquired godhood: Gen. 3:22
    3. Only one true God: 2 Chr. 15:3; Jer. 10:10; John 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; 1 John 5:20-21
    4. All other "gods" are therefore false gods (idols), not gods at all: Deut. 32:21; 1 Sam. 12:21; Psa. 96:5; Isa. 37:19; 41:23-24, 41:29; Jer. 2:11; 5:7; 16:20; 1 Cor. 8:4; 10:19-20
    5. Demons, not gods, are the power behind false worship: Deut. 32:17; Psa. 106:37; 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8
    6. How human beings are meant to be "like God"
      1. The image of God indicates that man is to represent God and share his moral character, not that man can be metaphysically like God: Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1; 1 Cor. 11:7; Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10
      2. The goal of being like Christ has the following aspects only:
        1. Sharing His moral character: 1 John 3:2; Rom. 8:29
        2. Being raised with glorified, immortal bodies like His: Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:49
      3. Becoming partakers of the divine nature refers again to moral nature ("having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust"), not metaphysical nature: 2 Pet. 1:4; see also Heb. 12:10; on the meaning of "partakers," See 1 Cor. 10:18, 10:20; 2 Cor. 1:17; 1 Pet. 5:1
 
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Daniel Marsh

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    1. Are mighty or exalted men gods?
      1. Scripture never says explicitly that men are gods
      2. Powerful, mighty men are explicitly said not to be gods: Ezek. 28:2, 28:9; Isa. 31:3; 2 Thess. 2:4
      3. Men and God are opposite, exclusive categories: Num. 23:19; Isa. 31:3; Ezek. 28:2; Hosea 11:9; Matt. 19:26; John 10:33; Acts 12:22; 1 Cor. 14:2
      4. Moses was "as God," not really a god: Ex. 4:16; 7:1
      5. Ezek. 32:21 speaks of warriors or soldiers as "mighty gods," but in context they are so regarded by their pagan nations, not by God or Israel; cf. Ezek. 28:2, 28:9
      6. The elohim before whom accused stood in Exodus was God Himself, not judges, as many translations incorrectly render: Ex. 22:8-9, 22:28; compare Deut. 19:17
      7. The use of elohim in Psalm 82:1, probably in reference to wicked judges, as cited by Jesus in John 10:34-36, does not mean that men really can be gods.
        1. It is Asaph, not the Lord, who calls the judges elohim in Psa. 82:1, 82:6. This is important, even though we agree that Psa. 82 is inspired.
        2. Asaph's meaning is not "Although you are gods, you will die like men," but rather "I called you gods, but in fact you will all die like the men that you really are"
        3. The Psalmist was no more saying that wicked judges were truly gods than he was saying that they were truly "sons of the Most High" (Psa 82:6 b)
        4. Thus, Psa. 82:1 calls the judges elohim in irony. They had quite likely taken their role in judgment (cf. point 5 above) to mean they were elohim, or gods, and Asaph's message is that these so-called gods were mere men who would die under the judgment of the true elohim (vss. Psa. 82:1-2, 82:7-8)
        5. Christ's use of this passage in John 10:34-36 does not negate the above interpretation of Psalm 82
        6. The words, "The Scripture cannot be broken," means "the Scripture cannot go without having some ultimate fulfillment" (cf. John 7:23; Matt. 5:17). Thus Jesus is saying that what the OT judges were called in irony, He is in reality; He does what they could not do, and is what they could never be (see the Adam-Christ contrasts in Rom. 5:12-21 and 1 Cor. 15:21-22, 15:45 for a similar use of OT Scripture)
        7. The clause, "those against whom the word of God came" (John 10:35) shows that this "word" was a word of judgment against the so-called gods; which shows that they were false gods, not really gods at all
        8. Finally, these wicked men were certainly not "godlike" or "divine" by nature, so that in any case the use of elohim to refer to them must be seen as figurative, not literal
      8. Even if men were gods (which they are not), this would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He was God as a preexistent spirit before creation: John 1:1
    2. Are angels gods?
      1. Scripture never explicitly states that angels are gods
      2. Demonic spirits are not gods, 1 Cor. 10:20; Gal. 4:8; thus, being "mighty spirits" does not make angels gods
      3. Satan is therefore also a false god: 2 Cor. 4:4
      4. Psalm 8:5 does not teach that angels are gods
        1. Psa. 8:5 is paraphrased in Heb. 2:7, not quoted literally (cf. Psa. 68:18 with Eph. 4:8). In Psa. 8:5, elohim certainly means God, not angels, since Psa. 8:3-8 parallels Gen. 1:1, 1:8, 1:16, 1:26-28. Note that the Psalmist is speaking of man's exalted place in creation, whereas Hebrews is speaking of the lower place taken by Christ in becoming a man. Thus, Heb. 2:7 may not mean to equate angels with gods at all.
        2. Even if Heb. 2:7 does imply that angels are "gods," in the context of Hebrews 1-2 these angels would be those falsely exalted above Christ: Note Heb. 1:6 (which quotes Psa. 97:7, which definitely speaks of "gods" in the sense of false gods); and cf. Col. 2:16 on the problem of the worship of angels.
      5. Elsewhere in the Psalms angels, if spoken of as gods (or as "sons of the gods"), are considered false gods: Psa. 29:1; 86:8-10; 89:6; 95:3; 96:4-5; 97:7-9 (note that these false gods are called "angels" in the Septuagint); Psa. 135:5; 136:2; 138:1; cf. Ex. 15:11; 18:11; Deut. 10:17; 1 Chr. 16:25; 2 Chr. 2:5.
      6. Even if the angels were gods (which the above shows they are not), that would be irrelevant to Jesus, since He is not an angelic being, but the Son who is worshiped by the angels as their Creator, Lord, and God: Heb. 1:1-13.
    3. Conclusion: If there is only one God, one true God, all other gods being false gods, neither men nor angels being gods, and none even like God by nature - all of which the Bible says repeatedly and explicitly - then we must conclude that there is indeed only one God.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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  1. This One God Is Known in the OT as "Jehovah/Yahweh" ("The Lord")
    1. Texts where Jehovah is said to be elohim or el: Deut. 4:35, 4:39; Psa. 100:3; etc.
    2. Texts where the compound name "Jehovah God" (Yahweh Elohim) is used: Gen. 2:3; 9:26; 24:3; Ex. 3:15-18; 4:4; 2 Sam. 7:22, 7:25; etc.
    3. Only one Yahweh/Jehovah: Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29
    4. Conclusion: Jehovah is the only God, the only El or Elohim
  2. God Is a Unique, Incomprehensible Being
    1. Only one God, thus unique: See I.A.
    2. None are even like God: See I.B.
    3. God cannot be fully comprehended: 1 Cor. 8:2-3
    4. God can only be known insofar as the Son reveals Him: Matt. 11:25-27; John 1:18
    5. Analogical language needed to describe God: Ezek. 1:26-28; Rev. 1:13-16
    6. God is transcendent, entirely distinct from and different than the universe, as the carpenter is distinct from the bench
      1. Separate from the world: Isa. 40:22; Acts 17:24
      2. Contrasted with the world: Psa. 102:25-27; 1 John 2:15-17
      3. Created the world: Gen. 1:1; Psa. 33:6; 102:25; Isa. 42:5; 44:24; John 1:3; Rom. 11:36; Heb. 1:2; 11:3
  3. Is God One Person?
    1. God is one God (cf. I above), one Yahweh, one Lord (cf. II above), one Spirit(John 4:24)
    2. However, the Bible never says that God is "one person"
      1. Heb. 1:3 KJV speaks of God's "person," but the word used here, hupostasis, is translated "substance" in Heb. 11:1 KJV; also in Heb. 1:3 "God" refers specifically to the Father
      2. Gal. 3:20 speaks of God as one party in the covenant between God and man, not as one person
      3. Job 13:8 KJV speaks of God's "person," but ironically the Hebrew literally means "his faces"
 
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Daniel Marsh

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    1. The use of singular and plural pronouns for God
      1. Over 7000 times God speaks or is spoken of with singular pronouns (I, He, etc.); but this is proper because God is a single individual being; thus these singular forms do not disprove that God exists as three "persons" as long as these persons are not separate beings
      2. At least three times God speaks of or to himself using plural pronouns (Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7), and nontrinitarian interpretation cannot account for these occurrences.
        1. A plural reference to God and the angels is possible in Isa. 6:8, but not in the Genesis texts: in Gen 1:26 "our image" is explained in Gen 1:27, "in God's image"; in Gen 3:22 "like one of us" refers back to Gen 3:5, "like God."
        2. The "literary plural" (possibly, though never clearly, attested in Paul) is irrelevant to texts in which God is speaking, not writing.
        3. The "plural of deliberation" (as in "Let's see now…") is apparently unattested in biblical writings, and cannot explain Gen. 3:22 ("like one of us").
        4. The "plural of amplitude" or of "fullness" (which probably does explain the use of the plural form elohim in the singular sense of "God") is irrelevant to the use of plural pronouns, and again cannot explain Gen. 3:22.
        5. The "plural of majesty" is possibly attested in 1 Kgs. 12:9; 2 Chron. 10:9; more likely Ezra 4:18; but none of these are certain; and again, it cannot explain Gen. 3:22; also nothing in the context of the Genesis texts suggests that God is being presented particularly as King.
    2. The uniqueness of God (cf. III above) should prepare us for the possibility that the one divine Being exists uniquely as a plurality of persons
 
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Daniel Marsh

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  1. The Father of Jesus Christ Is God
    1. Explicit statements: John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; etc.
    2. The expression, "the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ": 2 Cor. 1:3; Eph. 1:3; 1 Pet. 1:3
  2. Jesus Christ Is God
    1. Explicit statements
      1. Isa. 9:6; note Isa. 10:21. Translations which render "mighty hero," are inconsistent in their rendering of Isa. 10:21. Also note that Ezek. 32:21 is (a) not in the same context, as is Isa. 10:21, and (b) speaking of false gods, cf. I.G.5. above.
      2. John 1:1 Even if Jesus is here called "a god" (as some have argued), since there is only one God, Jesus is that God. However, the "a god" rendering is incorrect. Other passages using the Greek word for God (theos) in the same construction are always rendered "God": Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38; John 8:54; Phil 2:13; Heb. 11:16. Passages in which a shift occurs from ho theos ("the God") to theos ("God") never imply a shift in meaning: Mark 12:27; Luke 20:37-38; John 3:2; 13:3; Rom. 1:21; 1 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 9:14; 1 Pet. 4:10-11
      3. John 1:18. The best manuscripts have "the unique God" (monogenês, frequently rendered "only-begotten," actually means "one of a kind," "unique," though in the NT always in the context of a son or daughter). Even if one translates "only-begotten," the idea is not of a "begotten god" as opposed to an "unbegotten god."
      4. John 20:28. Compare Rev. 4:11, where the same construction is used in the plural ("our") instead of the singular ("my"). See also Psa. 35:23. Note that Christ's response indicates that Thomas' acclamation was not wrong. Also note that John 20:17 does show that the Father was Jesus' "God" (due to Jesus becoming a man), but the words "my God" as spoken by Thomas later in the same chapter must mean no less than in John 20:17. Thus, what the Father is to Jesus in His humanity, Jesus is to Thomas (and therefore to us as well).
      5. Acts 20:28: "the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." The variant readings (e.g. "the church of the Lord") show that the original was understood to mean "His own blood," not "the blood of His own [Son]" (since otherwise no one would have thought to change it). Thus all other renderings are attempts to evade the startling clarity and meaning of this passage.
      6. Rom. 9:5. While grammatically this is not the only possible interpretation, the consistent form of doxologies in Scripture, as well as the smoothest reading of the text, supports the identification of Christ as "God" in this verse.
      7. Titus 2:13. Grammatically and contextually, this is one of the strongest proof-texts for the deity of Christ. Sharp's first rule, properly understood, proves that the text should be translated "our great God and Savior" (cf. same construction in Luke 20:37; Rev. 1:6; and many other passages). Note also that Paul always uses the word "manifestation" ("appearing") of Christ: 2 Thess. 2:8; 1 Tim. 6:14; 2 Tim. 1:10; 4:1, 4:8.
      8. Heb. 1:8. The rendering, "God is your throne," is nonsense - God is not a throne, He is the one who sits on the throne! Also, "God is your throne," if taken to mean God is the source of one's rule, could be said about any angelic ruler - but Hebrews 1 is arguing that Jesus is superior to the angels.
      9. 2 Pet. 1:1. The same construction is used here as in Titus 2:13; see the parallel passages in 2 Pet. 1:11; 2:20; 3:2, 3:18.
      10. 1 John 5:20. Note that the most obvious antecedent for "this" is Jesus Christ. Also note that the "eternal life" is Christ, as can be seen from John 1:2.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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    1. Jesus is Jehovah/Yahweh
      1. Rom. 10:9-13: Note the repeated "for," which links these verses closely together. The "Lord" of Rom. 10:13 must be the "Lord" of Rom. 10:9, 10:12.
      2. Phil. 2:9-11. In context, the "name that is above every name" is "Lord" (Phil. 2:11), i.e., Jehovah.
      3. Heb. 1:10: Here God the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," in a quotation from Psa. 102:25 (cf. Psa. 102:24, where the person addressed is called "God"). Since here the Father addresses the Son as "Lord," this cannot be explained away as a text in which a creature addresses Christ as God/Lord in a merely representational sense.
      4. 1 Pet. 2:3-4: This verse is nearly an exact quotation of Psa. 34:8 a, where "Lord" is Jehovah. From 1 Pet. 2:4-8 it is also clear that "the Lord" in 1 Pet. 2:3 is Jesus.
      5. 1 Pet. 3:14-15: these verses are a clear reference to Isa. 8:12-13, where the one who is to be regarded as holy is Jehovah.
      6. Texts where Jesus is spoken of as the "one Lord" (cf. Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:29): 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 4:5; cf. Rom. 10:12; 1 Cor. 12:5.
    2. Jesus has the titles of God
      1. Titles belonging only to God
        1. The first and the last: Rev. 1:17; 22:13; cf. Isa. 44:6
        2. King of kings and Lord of lords: 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 17:14; 19:16
      2. Titles belonging in the ultimate sense only to God
        1. Savior: Luke 2:11; John 4:42; 1 John 4:14; Titus 2:13, cf. Titus 2:10; etc.; cf. Isa. 43:11; 45:21-22; 1 Tim. 4:10; on Jesus becoming the source of salvation; Heb. 5:9, cf. Ex. 15:2; Psa. 118:14, 118:21
        2. Shepherd: John 10:11; Heb. 13:20; cf. Psa. 23:1; Isa. 40:11
        3. Rock: 1 Cor. 10:4; cf. Isa. 44:8
    3. Jesus received the honors due to God alone
      1. Honor: John 5:23
      2. Love: Matt. 10:37
      3. Prayer: John 14:14 (text debated, but in any case it is Jesus who answers the prayer); Acts 1:24-25; 7:59-60 (cf. Luke 23:34, 23:46); Rom. 10:12-13; 1 Cor. 1:2; 2 Cor. 12:8-10 (where "the Lord" must be Jesus, cf. 2 Cor. 12:9); 2 Thess. 2:16-17; etc.
      4. Worship (proskuneô): Matt. 28:17; Heb. 1:6 (cf. Psa. 97:7); cf. Matt 4:10
      5. Religious or sacred service (latreuô): Rev. 22:13
      6. Doxological praise: 2 Tim. 4:18; 2 Pet. 3:18; Rev. 1:5-6; 5:13
      7. Faith: John 3:16; 14:1; etc.
    4. Jesus does the works of God
      1. Creation: John 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; Col. 1:16-17; Heb. 1:2; Rev. 3:14 (where archêprobably means ruler); on "through" and "in" cf. Rom. 11:36; Heb. 2:10; Acts 17:28; cf. also Isa. 44:24
      2. Sustains the universe: Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:3, 1:11-12
      3. Salvation:
        1. In General: See C.2.a. above
        2. Forgives sins: Matt. 9:1-8; Mark 2:1-12; Luke 5:17-26; note that Jesus forgives sins not committed against Him.
      4. All of them: John 5:17-29 (including judgment, cf. Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:10)
    5. Jesus has all the incommunicable attributes of God
      1. All of them: John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Col. 1:15; 2:9; Heb. 1:3
      2. Self-existent: John 5:26
      3. Unchangeable: Heb. 1:10-12 (in the same sense as YHWH); Heb. 13:8
      4. Eternal: John 1:1; 8:58; 17:5; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2
      5. Omnipresent: Matt. 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; Eph. 1:23; 4:10; Col. 3:11
      6. Omniscient: John 16:30; 21:17; cf. John 2:23-24
      7. Incomprehensible: Matt. 11:25-27
    6. Jesus is "equal with God"
      1. John 5:18: Although John is relating what the Jews understood Jesus to be claiming, the context shows they were basically right: In John 5:17 claimed to be exempt from the Sabbath along with His Father, and in John 5:19-29 Jesus claimed to do all of the world of the Father and to deserve the same honor as the Father
      2. Phil. 2:6: Jesus did not attempt to seize recognition by the world as being equal with God, but attained that recognition by humbling himself and being exalted by the Father (Phil. 2:7-11)
    7. Jesus is the Son of God
      1. "Son" in Scripture can mean simply one possessing the nature of something, whether literal or figurative (e.g. "Son of man," "sons of thunder," "sons of disobedience," cf. Mark 3:7; Eph. 2:1).
      2. Usually when "son of" is used in relation to a person (son of man, son of Abraham, son of David, etc.) the son possesses the nature of his father.
      3. Jesus is clearly not the literal Son of God, i.e., He was not physically procreated by God.
      4. On the other hand, Jesus is clearly the Son of God in a unique sense (cf. "only-begotten son," John 1:14; 3:16, 3:18; 1 John 4:9) and in a preeminent sense (i.e. the term is more fitting for Him than for anyone else).
      5. Scripture is explicit that the Son possesses God's essence or nature (cf. F. above).
      6. Jesus' repeated claim to be the Son of God was consistently understood by the Jewish leaders as a blasphemous claim to equality with God, an understanding Jesus never denied: John 5:17-23; 8:58-59; 10:30-39; 19:7; Matt. 26:63-65.
      7. Jesus is therefore by nature God's Son, not God's creation or God's servant; Jesus is God's Son who became a servant for our sake and for the Father's glory (John 13:13-15; 17:4; Phil. 2:6-11; Heb. 1:4-13; 3:1-6; 5:8; etc.).
 
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    1. Objections
      1. Prov. 8:22: This text is not a literal description of Christ, but a poetic personification of wisdom (cf. all of Prov. 1-9, esp. Prov. 8:12-21; Prov. 9:1-6), poetically saying that God "got" His wisdom before He did anything - i.e., that God has always had wisdom.
      2. Col. 1:15: Does not mean that Christ is the first creature, since He is here presented as the Son and principal heir of the Father (cf. Col. 1:12); thus "firstborn" here means "heir" (cf. Gen. 43:33; 48;14-20; Ex. 4:22; 1 Chron. 5:1-3; Psa. 89:27; Jer. 31:9); note that Col. 1:16 speaks of the Son as the Creator, nor creature (cf. E.1. above).
      3. Rev. 3:14: "Beginning" (archê) in Rev. as a title means source or one who begins, i.e. Creator (cf. Rev. 1:8; 21:6; 22:13); elsewhere Christ is called the archê in the sense of "ruler," Col. 1:18, cf. plural archai, "rulers," in Col. 1:16; 2:10, 2:15, also Luke 12:11; Rom. 8:38; Eph. 3:10; 6:12; Tit. 3:1; cf. Luke 20:20; Jude 6; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:21.
      4. 1 Cor. 11:3; 15:28: Jesus is still subordinate to God, but as the Son to the Father; i.e., they are equal in nature, but the Son is subordinate relationally to God.
      5. John 20:17; Rom. 15:6; 1 Cor. 15:24; 2 Cor. 1:3; Rev. 1:6; 3:12: Jesus calls the Father "My God" because He is still man as well as God; note the distinction between "My God" and "your God" in John 20:17 (i.e., Jesus never speaks of "our God" including Himself with the disciples).
      6. Mark 13:32: Jesus' statement that He did not know the time of His return is to be explained by His voluntary acceptance of the humble form and likeness of a man (Phil. 2:7); in fact Jesus, as God, did know all things (John 16:30), and after His resurrection He does not including Himself as not knowing (Acts 1:6-7).
      7. Mark 10:17-18: Jesus does not deny being God, but simply tells the man that he has no business calling anyone "good" in an unqualified sense except God.
      8. Heb. 5:14: Jesus was tempted, cf. James 1:13; but note that Jesus could not sin, John 5:19.
      9. John 1:18: No one has seen God, but men have seen Jesus, e.g. 1 John 1:1-2; but note that no man can see the glorified Jesus either, 1 Tim. 6:16, and to see Jesus is to see the Father, John 14:9.
      10. 1 Tim. 1:17: God cannot die, but Jesus did, e.g. Phil. 2:8; but note that no one could take Jesus' life from Him, He could not remain dead, and He raised Himself: John 10:18; Acts 2:24; John 2:19-22.
      11. 1 Cor. 8:6: Father called God, Jesus called Lord: but here "God" and "Lord" are synonymous (cf. 1 Cor. 8:5; cf. also Rom. 14:3-12 for a good example of "God" and "Lord" as interchangeable); moreover, this text no more denies that Jesus is God than it does that the Father is Lord (Matt. 11:25); cf. Jude 4, where Jesus is the only Lord.
      12. 1 Tim. 2:5: Jesus here supposedly distinct from God; but Jesus is also distinct from (fallen) men, yet is Himself a man; likewise Jesus is distinct from God (the Father), but is also God.
      13. Deut. 4:12, 4:15-25; God not appear in a human form to Israel, lest they fall into idolatry; but this does not rule out His appearing in human form later after they had learned to abhor idolatry.
      14. In many texts Jesus is distinguished from God: He is the Son of God, was sent by God, etc.; in all these texts "God" is used as a name for the person most commonly called God, i.e., the Father.
 
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  1. The Holy Spirit Is God
    1. Equated with God: Acts 5:3-4; 2 Cor. 3:17-18
    2. Has the incommunicable attributes of God
      1. Eternal: Heb. 9:14
      2. Omnipresent: Psa. 139:7
      3. Omniscient: 1 Cor. 2:10-11
    3. Involved in all the works of God
      1. Creation: Gen. 1:2; Psa. 104:30
      2. Incarnation: Matt. 1:18, 1:20; Luke 1:35
      3. Resurrection: Rom. 1:4; 8:11
      4. Salvation: Rom. 8:1-27
    4. Is a person
      1. Has a name: Matt. 28:19; note that even though "name" might be used of a nonperson, here, in conjunction with the Father and the Son, it must be used of a person
      2. Is the "Helper"
        1. Is another Helper: John 14:16, cf. 1 John 2:1; note also that "Helper" (paraklêtos) was used in Greek always or almost always of persons.
        2. Is sent in Jesus' name, to teach: John 14:26.
        3. Will arrive, and then bear witness: John 15:26-27.
        4. Is sent by Christ to convict of sin, will speak not on his own but on behalf of Christ, will glorify Christ, thus exhibiting humility: John 16:7-14.
      3. Is the Holy Spirit, in contrast to unholy spirits: Mark 3:22-30, cf. Matt. 12:32; 1 Tim. 4:1; 1 John 3:24-4:6.
      4. Speaks, is quoted as speaking: John 16:13; Acts 1:16; 8:29; 10:19; 11:12; 13:2; 16:6; 20:23; 21:11; 28:25-27; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb. 3:7-11; 10:15-17; 1 Pet. 1:11; Rev. 2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29; 3:6, 3:13, 3:22.
      5. Can be lied to: Acts 5:3
      6. Can make decisions, judgments: Acts 15:28
      7. Intercedes for Christians with the Father: Rom. 8:26
      8. "Impersonal" language used of the Spirit paralled by language used of other persons
        1. The Holy Spirit as fire: Matt. 3:11; Luke 3:16; cf. Ex. 3:2-4; Deut. 4:24; 9:3; Heb. 12:29
        2. The Holy Spirit poured out: Acts 2:17, 2:33; cf. Isa. 53:12; Phil. 2:17; 2 Tim. 4:6
        3. Being filled with the Holy Spirit: Eph. 5:18, etc.; cf. Eph. 3:17, 3:19; 4:10
 
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Peter1000

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No---our steak is genuine meat---yours is still veggie meat. You call it meat---it is false, imitation and worthless for salvation. It is Not the meat of the Gospel, Lies do not save. God is not the author of confusion, half-truths, and downright lies. You can call it meat all you want. When people do allow the Holy Spirit to open their eyes---they see right through it and leave. You're only hop is to keep them deluded as long as possible, until they have shut out the true Holy Spirit and are numb to Him, then you slowly begin to feed them the imitation stuff, the real garbage. If they wake, they throw it down the garbage disposal. How anyone can believe that God was a human who worked His way into Godhood is beyond me---you have to be in a catatonic state. God the Father has no genealogy. He is the ONE AND ONLY GOD OF THE WHOLE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. You teach a false god. You worship a false god. No weak, anemic grandkid will save anyone.
That is the message of the gospel, to become like God. Read your scriptures with that in your mind and you will be surprised how often that subject is discussed. Even receiving the full nature of God, and being divine.

How would you like to be a God that creates trillions of other beings, and all you can do is toy with them. There is nobody that is like you are, you are all alone. Everyone of your creations is stupid, and inferior, and small, and insignificant compared to your glory and status.

We believe that God has created beings that can be like he is and have his divine nature and can create and be on His growth pattern. Our growth pattern expands God's growth pattern as we bring glory upon glory to our God.

If you look at the event on the Mt. Transfiguration, Jesus was transfigured before Peter, James, and John but looked no brighter than Moses and Elijah that he was standing next to, because they too have reached a level of Godhood that is near to Jesus.

Moses and Elijah are mortals that learned the same life style that Jesus had learned in the pre-earth life. It took Moses and Elijah much longer to learn the lifestyle of Jesus, but they did and standing next to Jesus they all shined brightly with godliness. I believe there are many men who are just like God and Jesus that were mortals. That is God's purpose to create beings to be like him. Otherwise it would be a lonely place at the top.
 
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Ironhold

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We actually went over this one some time ago. I'm just going to highlight the text and insert my responses in the middle.

If you don't see me responding to anything, it's because I'm short on time and will have to get to them later.

1. Pay a full tithing
3. Go to church every sunday
5. Read the scriptures, especially the Book of Mormon

10. Get your own testimony
11. Share the gospel with everyone
12. No sex before marriage
16. Repent for anything you have done wrong
17. Take the sacrament each week
18. Leave your little factory alone
19. Be an example
26. No swearing
30. Obey the laws of the land
33. Always be worthy so the spirit will guide you
34. Follow the spirit
37. Keep your thoughts clean
38. Dress modestly
56. Don't steal
57. Don't kill (unless commanded otherwise by god)
65. "Know" it's true; believing isn't good enough
66. Be perfect
68. Your body is a temple; treat it as such
73. Be honest
86. Endure to the end
94. Seek for personal inspiration
95. Be humble
101. Do all of the above with a pure heart and real intent


These are something that *everyone* who calls on the name of Christ should already be doing, so what's the issue?

2. Do your home teaching or visiting teaching
4. Fulfill your callings
6. Pray morning, noon, and night; personal and family


Ditto.

7a. Boys, serve a mission
7b. Girls, only date and marry returned missionaries


Official church policy is that such stipulations are an abuse of power, and that people should only go on missions if they feel inspired to do so. Anyone who tries to teach this is in opposition to Salt Lake.

8. No dating until 16 years old
54. inappropriate content in any form is not allowed
67. No necking/petting with your boyfriend/girlfriend
76. No oral sex, even with your spouse
77. Don't be gay

Aren't these all stipulations of most mainstream Christian denominations as well, or at least some variation thereof?

23. Have as many kids as you possibly can

Official church teachings are that family planning should be done by the husband and wife in conjunction with their attending physician. While large families are a *cultural* thing, there is no actual requirement.

22. Keep a journal

This is something you'll see even in non-Mormon circles.

24. No smoking
25. No drinking alcohol
27. No hot drinks (with the exception of hot chocolate)
28. No tea (even if it isn't hot)
29. No caffeine (even though it isn't in the WoW)


This person must not have been paying attention, as

*Most Western nations are pushing heavy restrictions on smoking
*Alcohol is also falling out of favor in many areas
*Hot chocolate has 1/8th to 1/10th of the caffeine content of instant coffee
*Barley tea is permissible under the Word of Wisdom
*Green tea is actually in a grey area, such that some members will drink it and remain in good standing.

43. Go to BYU

Not a requirement at all, and in fact perhaps only a small percentage of members who go to college go there.

47. No loud laughter

This one comes from where now?

53. Don't watch "R" rated movies

The original statement is that if a movie has an "R" rating or higher the content is likely such that people would be better off not seeing it.

As an entertainment writer, I can confirm this from personal experience. It's rare for me to see an "R" - rated movie where the content that pushed it so high was justified by the premise, and in most of those instances I was looking at war films.

40. Wear garments day and night

It's up to the individual to make that decision, however.

51. Have family home evening (FHE)

It's understood that this won't always happen. For example, I have the night shift on Mondays.

74. Women are to be stay-at-home mothers

It's encouraged, but at the same time women are to get their educations as well so that they can support themselves as needs be.

83. Wear your CTR ring

Not mandatory.

32. Watch 10 hours of General Conference twice a year

Recommended, but not mandatory as the transcripts and video will be made available at a later date.

90. Only listen to uplifting music

Recommended, but it's up to the person to decide what fits the bill.

92. Subscribe to the Ensign and other church magazines

Wait long enough, and it'll all be put on the church website for free.

85. Boys, become an Eagle Scout

Not a requirement, and in fact the church is disengaging from the BSA next year.

I'll talk about the rest later if I remember.
 
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That is the message of the gospel, to become like God. ...

By Sandra Tanner



The LDS scriptures declare that the ultimate goal of a Mormon is to become a god and procreate for all eternity.

The Doctrine & Covenants states:

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, ...Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; ...and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, ...and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-22)

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.69 - p.70:

THE STRAITNESS OF THE WAY. Mortality is the testing or proving ground for exaltation to find out who among the children of God are worthy to become Gods themselves, and the Lord has informed us that "few there be that find it."

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.97 - p.98:

ALL EXALTED MEN BECOME GODS. To believe that Adam is a god should not be strange to any person who accepts the Bible. When Jesus was accused of blasphemy because he claimed to be the Son of God, he answered the Jews: "Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

Joseph Smith taught a plurality of gods, and that man by obeying the commandments of God and keeping the whole law will eventually reach the power and exaltation by which he also will become a god.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.9:

What is eternal life? It is to have "a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." No one receives eternal life except those who receive the exaltation. Eternal life is the greatest gift of God; immortality is not.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.39:

SONS OF GOD BECOME GODS. If the faithful, who keep the commandments of the Father, are his sons, then they are heirs of the kingdom and shall receive of the fulness of the Father's glory, even until they become like the Father. And how can they be perfect as their Father in heaven is perfect if they are not like him? . . . And if they receive his fulness and his glory, and if "all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs," how can they receive these blessings and not become gods? They cannot.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.44:

Parents will have eternal claim upon their posterity and will have the gift of eternal increase, if they obtain the exaltation. This is the crowning glory in the kingdom of God, and they will have no end. When the Lord says they will have no end, he means that all who attain to this glory will have the blessing of the continuation of the "seeds" forever. Those who fail to obtain this blessing come to the "deaths," which means that they will have no increase, forever. All who obtain this exaltation will have the privilege of completing the full measure of their existence, and they will have a posterity that will be as innumerable as the stars of heaven.

If you want salvation in the fullest, that is exaltation in the kingdom of God, so that you may become his sons and his daughters, you have got to go into the temple of the Lord and receive these holy ordinances which belong to that house, which cannot be had elsewhere.

Joseph Fielding Smith Jr., Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.2, p.48:

The Father has promised us that through our faithfulness we shall be blessed with the fulness of his kingdom. In other words we will have the privilege of becoming like him. To become like him we must have all the powers of godhood; thus a man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fulness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings. There is no end to this development; it will go on forever. We will become gods and have jurisdiction over worlds, and these worlds will be peopled by our own offspring. We will have an endless eternity for this.

B. H. Roberts, The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, p.276-284, quotes approvingly Orson Pratt’s view of heaven:

'We would find, were we to carry this subject from world to world, from our world to another, even to the endless ages of eternity, that there never was a time but what there was a Father and Son. In other words when you entertain that which is endless, you exclude the idea of first being, a first world; the moment you admit of a first, you limit the idea of endless. * * *

'Says one, "this is incomprehensible." It may be so in some respects. We can admit, though, that duration is endless, for it is impossible for man to conceive of a limit to it. If duration is endless there can never be a first minute, a first hour, or first period; endless duration in the past is made up of a continuation of endless successive moments—it had no beginning. Precisely so with regard to this endless succession of personages; there never will be a time when fathers, and sons, and worlds will not exist; neither was there ever a period through all the past ages of duration, but what there was a world, and a Father and Son, a redemption and exaltation to the fullness and power of the Godhead.

. . .

'How very plain it is when we once learn about our future heaven. We do not have to pray, according to the Methodists, for the Lord to take us to a land beyond time and space, the Saints, secure abode. How inconsistent to look for a heaven beyond space! The heaven of the Saints is something we can look forward to in the confident hope of realizing our inheritances and enjoying them forever, when the earth becomes sanctified and made new. And there, as here, we will spread forth, and multiply our children. How long? For eternity. What, resurrected Saints have children? Yes, the same as our God, who is the Father of our spirits; so you, if you are faithful to the end, will become fathers to your sons and daughters, who will be as innumerable as the sands upon the sea shore; they will be your children, and you will be their heavenly fathers, the same as our heavenly Father is Father to us, and they will belong to your kingdoms through all the vast ages of eternity, the same as we will belong to our father's kingdom.'

Encyclopedia of Mormonism, Vol.2:

GODHOOD

Logically and naturally, the ultimate desire of a loving Supreme Being is to help his children enjoy all that he enjoys. For Latter-day Saints, the term "godhood" denotes the attainment of such a state—one of having all divine attributes and doing as God does and being as God is. Such a state is to be enjoyed by all exalted, embodied, intelligent beings (see Deification; Eternal Progression; Exaltation; God; Perfection). The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches that all resurrected and perfected mortals become gods (cf. Gen. 3:22; Matt. 5:48). They will dwell again with God the Father, and live and act like him in endless worlds of happiness, power, love, glory, and knowledge; above all, they will have the power of procreating endless lives. Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ attained godhood (see Christology) and that he marked the path and led the way for others likewise to become exalted divine beings by following him (cf. John 14:3).

Bruce R. McConkie, The Millennial Messiah, p.708:

Of those who enter the Lord's order of matrimony and who keep their covenants ..., the Lord says: "They shall pass by the angels, and the gods, ...to their exaltation and glory in all things, ...which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." That is to say, eternal life consists of two things: (1) the continuation of the family unit in eternity, which means a continuation of the seeds or the everlasting begetting of children; and (2) the receipt of the fulness of the glory of the Father, which is all power in heaven and on earth.’

Milton R. Hunter, Pearl of Great Price Commentary, p.144-145:

Later the Prophet Joseph explained what the revelation [D&C 132] meant by the statement, "which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever." He pointed out that the Gods were to be parents of spirit-children just as our Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother were the parents of the people of this earth. Following are the words of the Prophet:

Except a man and his wife enter into an everlasting covenant and be married for eternity, ...they will cease to increase when they die; that is, they will not have any children after the resurrection. But those who are married by the power and authority of the Priesthood in this life, and continue without committing the sin against the Holy Ghost, will continue to increase and have children in the celestial glory.

Milton R. Hunter, LDS Conference Report, April 1949, p.71:

The Prophet Joseph Smith explained that this continuation of "the seeds" forever and ever, meant the power of procreation; in other words, the power to beget spirit children on the same principle as we were born to our Heavenly Parents, God the Eternal Father and our Eternal Mother. Therefore, a man cannot receive the highest exaltation without a woman, his wife, nor can a woman be exalted without her husband. That is the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the plan of salvation.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.2, p.85 - p.86, Orson Hyde, October 6, 1854:

When the servants of God and their wives go to heaven there is an eternal union, and they will multiply and replenish the world to which they are going.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.22, p.125, George Q. Cannon, October 31, 1880:

Every man and every woman who prays unto the Father, who is in the habit of doing so, expresses that desire in his or her prayer--that we may be counted worthy to receive celestial glory and exaltation in the presence of God and the Lamb. ... When we talk about celestial glory, we talk of the condition of endless increase; if we obtain celestial glory in the fullest sense of the word, then we have wives and children in eternity, we have the power of endless lives granted unto us, the power of propagation that will endure through all eternity, all being fathers and mothers in eternity; fathers of fathers, and mothers of mothers, kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and shall I say more? Yes, all becoming gods.

Also see Joseph Smith's:

King Follet Sermon
Plurality of Gods Sermon
Does The Bible Teach Multiple Gods, Eternal Marriage, and endless children? NO!

There is only one God, who has eternally existed:

Isaiah 43:10-11: "I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, and the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

Isaiah 44:6: "Thus saith the LORD...I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:22: ...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me....I am God, and there is none else."

Isa 42:8: "I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images."

The Bible never equates Eternal Life with marriage and parenthood. It is promised to ALL who have come to Christ for salvation.

I John 5:12: "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

Luke 20: 35-36: "But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more; for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."

We are not children of God by procreation but by spiritual adoption.

John 1:12: "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

Galatians 3:26: "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."

Mormons Hope to Become Gods of Their Own Worlds
 
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I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years.

I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods. If this is in accordance with the New Testament, lo and behold! we have three Gods anyhow, and they are plural: and who can contradict it!
Joseph Smith's Sermon On Plurality of Gods

God An Exalted Man

I will go back to the beginning before the world was, to show what kind of a being God is. What sort of a being was God in the beginning? Open your ears and hear, all ye ends of the earth, for I am going to prove it to you by the Bible, and to tell you the designs of God in relation to the human race, and why He interferes with the affairs of man.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another.

In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.
Joseph Smith's King Follet Sermon
 
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