Does Matthew 24 Recapitulate?

Douggg said:

Not parallel passages. Luke 21:20-21 followed by....

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Luke 21:20-21 - 70 AD led captive into the nations
Matthew 24:15-31 end times gathered back to the land of Israel.

Click to expand...

Luke and Revelation go together like white on rice. AMEN........

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

Eze 14:21
For thus says the Lord GOD: “How much more it shall be when I send My four severe judgments on Jerusalem—the sword and famine and wild beasts and pestilence—to cut off man and beast from it?

Revelation 6:
7 And when It opens up the fourth Seal, I hear a voice of the fourth Living One saying "be coming!’"
8 And I looked and behold! a pale Horse and Him sitting on it, a name to him the Death and the Hades followed Him.
And was given to them authority over the fourth of the land, to kill in sword, and in famine and in death and by the beasts of the land.

Fulfilled on 1st century Jerusalem..........

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints
============================
Revelation 18:8
Yet this, in one day, shall be arriving the stripes/blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen.................

The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe.Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes. The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan.
The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire. The blood of the sufferers flowed in proportion to the rage of this de structive element ; and the number of the slain exceeded all calculation. Amongst the tragical events which at this time occured, the following is more particularly deserving of notice : a false prophet, pretending to a divine commission, affirmed that, if the people would repair to the Temple, they should behold signs of their speedy deliverance.....

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

The robbers and seditious were all punished with death :
the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome. After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.
During the time that these things were transacted, eleven thousand Jews, guarded by one of the generals, named Fronto, were literally starved to death.

Douggg said:

Not parallel passages. Luke 21:20-21 followed by....

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Differently, Matthew 24:15-16 is not followed that way, but by....

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

_______________________________________________

Luke 21:20-21 - 70 AD led captive into the nations

Matthew 24:15-31 end times gathered back to the land of Israel.

Click to expand...

You ignored many verses for some strange reason.
The following proves that Matthew's Gospel, and Luke's Gospel are parallel passages, to any unbiased reader not intent on making their man-made doctrine work.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　
Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　
Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimon　
Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　
Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　
Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　
Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　
Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　
Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　
Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.

John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.


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BABerean2 said:

You ignored many verses for some strange reason.
The following proves that Matthew's Gospel, and Luke's Gospel are parallel passages.


Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon;

The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.
Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.

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Click to expand...

Good post.
I actually simplified the harmonization of the 70AD Olivet Discourse for those interested.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

I put a link to each verses of Matthew 24 below, so one can click individual verses.
I include the verses of Mark 13 and Luke 21 if they are there.
Any input from other members is welcome.
============================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:1 Temple, Buildings
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:2 "stone upon stone
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:3 When shall these be?and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end of the Age?
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:4-5 For many shall be coming upon My name, saying,‘I AM the Christ....
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:7-8 , nation, kingdom against nation, kingdom; quaking, famines
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matthew 24:9 " they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye, hated by all"
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:10 Deliver up one another---brother to death
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:11, 12 False prophets.....multiplied lawlessness...love grows cold
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:13 One enduring to end shall be saved
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:14 Gospel preached, testimony to all nations----then the end
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:15 Abomination desolation....desolating of Jerusalem.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:16 those in Judea flee
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:17, 18 Those on Housetop---in the field
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:19 "woe to those pregnant and nursing in those days"
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:20 pray flight not in winter or sabbath
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:21 great tribulation, great distress, and wrath
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:22 Days shortened for sake of elect
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 23:23-25 False christs and prophets--deceive the elect if possible
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:26 He is in the desert, in the storerooms.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:27 Lightening flashes from east, so shall parousia of the Son of Man
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:28 Where the eagles/vultures, there the corpse/carcass/body be
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:29 Signs in sun, moon, stars, powers of heavens shaken
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:30 Son of Man coming upon cloud/s of heaven with power and much glory
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:31 Gather elect in trumpet sound from 4 winds of heaven/s
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:32 Fig tree ripe, summer is nigh
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:33 Nigh is upon doors, Kingdom of God
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:34 Not shall be passing this generation till all fulfilled
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth pass away, but not My words
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:36 Concerning day and hour, no one knows except Father
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:37-39 As in Days of Noah, thus also shall be Son of man
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:40-42 2 will be in the field, two will be grinding----1 taken, 1 left
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:43-44 Homeowner be wathchful, not knowing which hour Son of Man coming
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Dave Watchman said: ↑
That means Matthew 24 is not the same thing as Luke 21.
Luke 21 was inside the Temple in the morning. Jesus was sitting down inside a place called the "women's" court. He had to "look up' to see the poor old widow put money in the treasury which was located around the outside perimeter of that court.

Click to expand...

The "PAROUSIA" in Matthew 24

BABerean2 said: ↑
Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)
From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7
=======================
The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

Click to expand...

=================

BABerean2 said:

You ignored many verses for some strange reason.
The following proves that Matthew's Gospel, and Luke's Gospel are parallel passages, to any unbiased reader not intent on making their man-made doctrine work.

Click to expand...

Some parts of Luke 21 are 70 ad. Some parts of Matthew 24 follow Jesus leaving this earth. But not all of Luke 21 nor Matthew 24 are first century.

You are ignoring
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

is completely opposite Matthew 24:15-30 ending with
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just admit it.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Matt 24:31 Gather elect in trumpet sound from 4 winds of heaven/s
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Click to expand...

Your link does not include Matthew 24:31.

Douggg said:

You are ignoring
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

is completely opposite Matthew 24:15-30 ending with
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Just admit it.

Click to expand...

It is you who is ignoring what comes after Luke 21:24, which is the same as Matthew 24:30.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

.

BABerean2 said:

It is you who is ignoring what comes after Luke 21:24, which is the same as Matthew 24:30.

Click to expand...

Luke 21:24, the Jews are carried off to the nations. Followed by the times of the Gentiles, the nations occupying Jerusalem, until the day Jesus returns. The last 42 months of the 7 years, the nations are occupying Jerusalem, Revelation 11:2.

You are correct that Luke 21:25-28 and Matthew 24:29-30 are the same, but those verses are end times, not 70 AD. The conclusion of 70 AD is in Luke 21:24, as the Jews are carried off to the nations, and the times of the Gentiles begin.

Luke 21:25 -28 is end times and is the same as the end times Matthew 24:29-30, which Matthew 24:29 describes the sixth seal.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

I show "the tribulation of those days" on my chart, and immediately afterward is the sixth seal - just like it indicates in the text of Matthew 24:29.

Douggg said:

You are correct that Luke 21:25-28 and Matthew 24:29-30 are the same, but those verses are end times, not 70 AD. The conclusion of 70 AD is in Luke 21:24, as the Jews are carried off to the nations, and the times of the Gentiles begin.

Click to expand...

We are in agreement on the above, and therefore seem to be making some progress.

Based on Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles ends at the Second Coming of Christ, instead of 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ as many today claim.


Your problem is the fact that Matthew 24:15-16 has already been fulfilled, based on the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-21, because we find the exact same warning to flee below in the second verse of each Gospel.

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Now what do you do?
Do you revise your chart, or do you ignore what we agree on above to make your chart work?

.

Douggg said: ↑
You are ignoring
Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

It is you who is ignoring what comes after Luke 21:24, which is the same as Matthew 24:30.

Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
.

Click to expand...

Douggg said: ↑
You are correct that Luke 21:25-28 and Matthew 24:29-30 are the same, but those verses are end times, not 70 AD. The conclusion of 70 AD is in Luke 21:24, as the Jews are carried off to the nations, and the times of the Gentiles begin.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

We are in agreement on the above, and therefore seem to be making some progress.

Based on Luke 21:24-28, the times of the Gentiles ends at the Second Coming of Christ, instead of 7 years before the Second Coming of Christ as many today claim.

Your problem is the fact that Matthew 24:15-16 has already been fulfilled, based on the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-21, because we find the exact same warning to flee below in the second verse of each Gospel.
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Now what do you do?
Do you revise your chart, or do you ignore what we agree on above to make your chart work?
.

Click to expand...

Hello BAB and Dougg
I found a thread I had created some time back and just now bumped it up.


TIMES OF NATIONS in Luke 21:24

LittleLambofJesus said:

We see Ezekiel 30:3 mentioning "Time of Nations":

Ezekiel 30:
1 And a word of Yahweh is coming to me to say of: 2 "Son of adam! prophesy thou! and thou say,
'Thus says Adonay Yahweh: 'Wail ye! 'Woe! for Day!'
3 that near Day, and near Day of Yahweh,
a Day of cloud, Time/`ethעֵת (`eth) <06256> of Nations shall become.

Daniel 12:1 mentions a time of distress which has not happened from becoming a nation until that time.

Daniel 12:1
1 And in that Time, Miyka'el shall stand, the great chief, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And Time<06256> of distress becomes, which not has-become from to becoming a Nation, until that time<06256>.
And in that Time<06256>, thy people shall Escape, all of the ones being found being written in Scroll.

Luke 21:24 mentioning "times of nations":

Luke 21:24
"And they shall be falling by mouth of sword, and they shall be being led captive into all the Nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trampled by nations until which may be being fulfilled<4137> Times<2540> of nations

Revelation 11:2 mentions the court outside of the sanctuary being cast out and given to the nations/gentiles for 42 months. Is this the same event mentioned in Luke 21:24?

Revelation 11:2 and the Court/Palace<833>[Court of High Priest/bronze altar?] the one outside the Sanctuary<3485>, be you casting out!<1544 ekbale> out-side<1854> and thou should not be measuring,
that it was given unto the nations.
And the holy City they shall be tramping-upon forty and two months.

Click to expand...

In mine, and many others views, the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled in the 1st century upon the OC Jewish Nation and their Temple.
This is a great overview of the 1st century Jewish Wars:

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70

Revelation 11:2 and the Court/Palace<833>[Court of High Priest/bronze altar?] the one outside the Sanctuary<3485>, be you casting out!<1544 ekbale> out-side<1854> and thou should not be measuring,
that it was given unto the nations.
And the holy City they shall be tramping-upon forty and two months
=================
This Utube vid shows Josephus's accout on that timeline......

LittleLambofJesus said:

In mine, and many others views, the times of the Gentiles were fulfilled in the 1st century upon the OC Jewish Nation and their Temple.

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Your viewpoint of the "times of the Gentiles" only works if you ignore the words of Paul found below.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Is the Gospel still being taken to the Gentiles today, or did it stop in 70 AD ?

.

BABerean2 said:

Your viewpoint of the "times of the Gentiles" only works if you ignore the words of Paul found below.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Is the Gospel still being taken to the Gentiles today, or did it stop in 70 AD ?

.

Click to expand...

I am transferring any discussions on the "Times of Gentiles" to this other thread so others can give the view of it w/o disrupting this thread.
This appears to be a controversial topic between futurists and preterists, so let the discussions begin!

TIMES OF NATIONS in Luke 21:24

LittleLambofJesus said:

I am transferring any discussions on the "Times of Gentiles" to this other thread so others can give the view of it w/o disrupting this thread.

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Since Dave started this thread, that would be up to him.

Why don't you just answer the question in my last post?

.

BABerean2 said:

Since Dave started this thread, that would be up to him.

Why don't you just answer the question in my last post?

.

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This thread is about Matthew 24, and the phrase "Times of the Gentiles" isn't mentioned in his Gospel. You and Dougg brought it up. I would be glad to have Dave respond on my other thread..........
Does Matthew 24 Recapitulate?

I answered your post here:

TIMES OF NATIONS in Luke 21:24

BABerean2 said: ↑
Your viewpoint of the "times of the Gentiles" only works if you ignore the words of Paul found below.
Is the Gospel still being taken to the Gentiles today, or did it stop in 70 AD ?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Click to expand...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Taken from another thread:

That has nothing to due with the 1st century destruction of Jerusalem and it's Temple Priesthood.......
The Gospel of Jesus was spread all over to both Jews and Gentiles and when that was finished, the End came upon the OC Temple worshiping.......
What do you make of these verses?

1 Timothy 3:16
By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the nations, was believed in throughout the world, was taken up in glory.

Colo 1:
6 that has come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit and growing, just as it has been doing among you since the day you heard it and truly understood the grace of God.
23 if also ye remain in the faith, being founded and settled, and not moved away from the hope of the good news, which ye heard, which was preached in all the creation that is under the heaven, of which I became -- I Paul -- a ministrant.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible
PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY: INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ; and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy.
Thus terminated the glory and existence of this sacred and venerable Edifice, which from its stupendous size, its massy solidity, and astonishing strength, seemed formed to resist the most violent operations of human force, and to stand, like the pyramids, amid the shocks of successive ages, until the final dissolution of the globe.

In executing the command of Titus, relative to the demolition of Jerusalem, the Roman soldiers not only threw down the buildings, but even dug up their foundations, and so completely levelled the whole circuit of the city, that a stranger would scarcely have known that it had ever been inhabited by human beings. Thus was this great City, which only five months before, had been crowded with nearly two millions of people, who gloried in its impregnable strength, entirely depopulated, and levelled with the ground. And thus, also was our LORD'S prediction, that her enemies should "lay her even with the ground," and "should not leave in her one stone upon another, " (Luke xix. 44.) most strikingly and fully accomplished ! -- This fact is confirmed by Eusebius, who asserts that he himself saw the city lying in ruins ; and Josephus introduces Eleazer as exclaiming "Where is our great city, which, it was believed, GOD inhabited ? It is altogether rooted and torn up from its foundations ; and the only monument of it that remains, is the camp of its destroyers pitched amidst its reliques !"
===========================
Revelation and Josephus go together like white on rice...........

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:19
and they cast dust upon their heads, and cried<2896>, lamenting<2799>, weeping and mourning<3996>, saying,
"Woe! woe! the great City! in which are rich all those having ships<4143> in the sea, out of Her preciousness<5094>, for to one hour was She was desolated<2049>.

Revelation 19:1
After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God; 2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".

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BABerean2 said:

Your problem is the fact that Matthew 24:15-16 has already been fulfilled, based on the parallel passage of Luke 21:20-21, because we find the exact same warning to flee below in the second verse of each Gospel.

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Same type of language, yes. Same event, no. Similar to the
abomination that makes desolate in Daniel 11, attributed to Antiochus. Versus, the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12, end times.

BABerean2 said:

Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Now what do you do?

Click to expand...

What will I do? I will remind you that before Matthew 24:16 there is Matthew 24:14-15.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Daniel 12:4 describes the time of the end.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The abomination of desolation is in Daniel 12:11-12.

BABerean2 said:

Do you revise your chart, or do you ignore what we agree on above to make your chart work?

Click to expand...

My chart is accurate. I am sure if you go through it, each element, you will recall all of the discussions we have had over the years. Right now, the focus in on the meaning of "immediately following the tribulation of those days..." of Matthew 24:29 down at the bottom, which Matthew 24:29 describes the sixth seal event.

Dave L said:

The AoD was Antiochus Epiphanies. He is a proto type.

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Hello Dave.......
Perhaps a prototype of Titus in 70ad?

I actually have 2 threads on Titus......one concerning the siege and Passover and one showing him and his elite 10th Legion on Mount Olives........

Titus sieges Jerusalem on Feast of Passover/Destroyer in Revelation
Matthew 24 Mount of Olives and Titus' 10th Legion on Mt Olives 70ad

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

"There is no evidence that the altar that stood before the temple was similarly desecrated in Jesus' time. After the temple was destroyed in 70 C.E., however, Roman soldiers celebrated their victory by raising their standards, which bore the image of the emperor, on the holy place." (Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Five Gospels)

General Titus Entering the Holy of Holies

===============================
Titus' Siege of Jerusalem - Livius

The Antonia was demolished. The stones were used to build a new dam, this time towards the Temple terrace. The Romans used the dam to set fire to the porticoes on the northern and western side of the terrace, but it was impossible to bash trough the walls. On the tenth of August, the Temple itself was burning. Six thousand women and children were taken prisoner at the Court of the Gentiles, while the legionaries sacrificed to their standards in the Holy of Holies.

Flavius Josephus writes in his Jewish War 6.220-270 that the Roman soldiers took the initiative, but this is not true. A fourth-century writer, Sulpicius Severus, states that Titus ordered the destruction of the sanctuary, and this piece of information almost certainly stems from the Roman historian Tacitus.note It is more probable that Flavius Josephus invented his story to absolve his friend Titus from the responsibility of this war crime, than that Tacitus was slandering.

jgr said:

His daughter Gladys and I taught Sunday School together many years ago.

Click to expand...

Nobody Names their Daughter Gladys anymore....
Good strong name.

jgr said: ↑
His daughter Gladys and I taught Sunday School together many years ago.

Click to expand...

parousia70 said:

Nobody Names their Daughter Gladys anymore....
Good strong name.

Click to expand...

Perhaps because they are thinking about the Gladys in this hilarious series

Gladys Kravitz Freaks Out

Douggg said:

Same type of language, yes. Same event, no. Similar to the

abomination that makes desolate in Daniel 11, attributed to Antiochus. Versus, the abomination of desolation in Daniel 12:11-12, end times.
What will I do? I will remind you that before Matthew 24:16 there is Matthew 24:14-15.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

Daniel 12:4 describes the time of the end.

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

The abomination of desolation is in Daniel 12:11-12.



My chart is accurate. I am sure if you go through it, each element, you will recall all of the discussions we have had over the years. Right now, the focus in on the "immediately following the tribulation of those days..." of Matthew 24:29 down at the bottom, which Matthew 24:29 describes the sixth seal event.

View attachment 261467

Click to expand...

Are you saying that every time the word "end" is found in the Bible, it is referring to the Second Coming of Christ?

Mat 11:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

.