Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2019

QvQ said:
I read Augustine after I asked a Catholic Priest if people knew right from wrong. I don't believe it is inherent or maybe it is fouled by sin and false teaching. Too many make up their own rules. The Bible was easy for me to understand, the moral code so if scraping off the dirt allows the inherent conscience to shine through, maybe we are born with that sense. I prefer Calvin as a theologian and the Westminster Confession, I am reading that but it is a slow go.

Have you found the New Covenant in the writings of Calvin, and the Westminster Confession of Faith?

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Have you found the New Covenant in the writings of Calvin, and the Westminster Confession of Faith?

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(Quoted from Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

IF you are talking about Christ, then it is the Gospels you are calling the New Covenant?

QvQ · Aug 20, 2019

"and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change" Westminster Confession 1646
Yes, limited free will, right there in the Westminster Confession
I am not certain about Election, here is the quote:
"that men, attending the will of God revealed in His Word, and yielding obedience
thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.82 So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;83 and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the Gospel."

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2019

QvQ said:
IF you are talking about Christ, then it is the Gospels you are calling the New Covenant?

No.
I am talking about the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in the passage below, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 20, 2019

If you wear the correct type of glasses, you can make Augustine's view of election work.
First he decided that infant baptism was correct, and then he set out to find the scriptures needed to prove the idea.

This fact is proven by Dr. Kenneth Wilson's recent book on the writings of Augustine.
Augustine redefined the concepts of free will taught by all of the Early Church Fathers who came before him. He often selectively quoted their works to make his doctrine work.

.[/QUOTE]
B2
I have interacted with Leighton Flowers for years on baptist board. He was toast on there as several of us answered him on a daily basis.

I do not care that much what Augustine, or ECF believed or said.
My view comes from scripture. I held most of what I believe before I knew who any of the people in Church History.
I do not believe "free will " exists in the real world, except in the world of carnal philosophy.
There is no scripture that says...use your free will. It is not in scripture, and the teaching is not in scripture. Guys who listen to the false teaching of Leighton Flowers, run to verses that speak of choice.
People choose everyday but their will is not free.
Stop trying to explain away the scriptures by dubious church history.

Dr. Jack · Aug 20, 2019

twin1954 said:
A moral nature. He experienced communion with God before the Fall. He Was given dominion over creation before the Fall. He dressed and kept the Garden before the Fall. We do not know how long after creation the Fall occurred so we don't have any idea of what he had or how long he had it. What we do know is that he willfully lost it all.

When he lost it he tried to blame the woman and God, that woman you gave me.

Adam was created with a moral nature in the image of God. That is what separated him from all of the beasts and birds and fishes. He was created knowing what was right and doing it.

Please provide a Scripture text to support that assertion.

2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis

It is clear that Adam did not know good and evil, prior to the fall.

I do not believe in the probation theory or even the innocence idea. Innocence carries the idea of not knowing anything. Adam wasn't innocent he was moral. He knew and experienced much more than we ever could now. And in the face of all that he still willfully sinned.

The Scripture is clear that Adam did NOT have a sin nature prior to the fall; but that ISN'T the purpose of this thread.

This thread deals with the Calvinistic doctrine of "determinism"; the fact that God determined the fall of Adam, prior to the creation.

The Covenant of Redemption was made prior to creation amongst the Godhead,. God determined to be man's redeemer, but of necessity, that means that God also determined Man to fall (Adam).

Determinism has two elements: 1) foreknowledge (of the event); and 2) purpose to bring about the outcome of the event.

If there is a race between two people, but a person has determined that person "A" must win, the person who has determined that person "A" must win, takes actions to assure the outcome of the race. This means that the person who has determined person "A" must win, and took actions to assure the outcome of the race, is responsible for person "A" winning the race.

God determined Adam would fall, and took actions to insure Adam did fall, (according to Calvinism), but Calvinists refuse to acknowledge this problem.

BABerean2 · Aug 20, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
Stop trying to explain away the scriptures by dubious church history.

Basing the truth on the written words of Augustine, and the writings of the Early Church Fathers who came before him is not "dubious church history".

It proves that around the year 412 AD Augustine reversed his viewpoint found in his earlier writings in order to justify infant baptism, and also went against the writings of the Early Church Fathers who came before him regarding the issue of free will.

These are facts that cannot be denied, based on the historical written record.

.

QvQ · Aug 21, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
Please provide a Scripture text to support that assertion.

2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis

It is clear that Adam did not know good and evil, prior to the fall.

The Scripture is clear that Adam did NOT have a sin nature prior to the fall; but that ISN'T the purpose of this thread.

This thread deals with the Calvinistic doctrine of "determinism"; the fact that God determined the fall of Adam, prior to the creation.

The Covenant of Redemption was made prior to creation amongst the Godhead,. God determined to be man's redeemer, but of necessity, that means that God also determined Man to fall (Adam).

Determinism has two elements: 1) foreknowledge (of the event); and 2) purpose to bring about the outcome of the event.

If there is a race between two people, but a person has determined that person "A" must win, the person who has determined that person "A" must win, takes actions to assure the outcome of the race. This means that the person who has determined person "A" must win, and took actions to assure the outcome of the race, is responsible for person "A" winning the race.

God determined Adam would fall, and took actions to insure Adam did fall, (according to Calvinism), but Calvinists refuse to acknowledge this problem.

Determinism, in the Westminster Confession, seems to mean the" universe as clock" determinism. The laws of God being set and immutable, given the right set of circumstances then X would happen. Determinism is the idea that every event is necessitated by antecedent events and conditions together with the laws of, in this case, God. God could know forward and backward that Adam would fall, just as you know the sun will come up, as you know it went down last night.

As for Free Will, "and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change" Westminster Confession 1646

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Basing the truth on the written words of Augustine, and the writings of the Early Church Fathers who came before him is not "dubious church history".

It proves that around the year 412 AD Augustine reversed his viewpoint found in his earlier writings in order to justify infant baptism, and also went against the writings of the Early Church Fathers who came before him regarding the issue of free will.

These are facts that cannot be denied, based on the historical written record.

.

Those historical facts have nothing to do with what scripture revealed.
If missionaries bring bibles to people they do not come with Augustine letters attached to them.

BABerean2 · Aug 21, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
Those historical facts have nothing to do with what scripture revealed.
If missionaries bring bibles to people they do not come with Augustine letters attached to them.

You are correct, and therefore they do not come with Calvinism unless the missionary ignores certain passages of scripture like the ones below.

The following three passage prove that regeneration does not precede faith.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The next verse proves that God wants every man to repent, unless you are a Calvinist who must redefine the word "all" to mean only the elect.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The following verse proves that the reference to Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 is about the election of a nation, instead of the salvation of an individual.

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

For some strange reason Calvinists never seem to bring up the verses above.
Instead, when the opponents of Calvinism produce them Calvinists attempt to explain them away to make Augustine's doctrine of election work.
Augustine did the same thing.

.

ICONO'CLAST · Aug 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You are correct, and therefore they do not come with Calvinism unless the missionary ignores certain passages of scripture like the ones below.

The following three passage prove that regeneration does not precede faith.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The next verse proves that God wants every man to repent, unless you are a Calvinist who must redefine the word "all" to mean only the elect.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The following verse proves that the reference to Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 is about the election of a nation, instead of the salvation of an individual.

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

For some strange reason Calvinists never seem to bring up the verses above.
Instead, when the opponents of Calvinism produce them Calvinists attempt to explain them away to make Augustine's doctrine of election work.
Augustine did the same thing.

.

Lol...sure you do. You might not come up with the term, but you come up with the teaching as soon as you read jn6 :37-44, or Romans 8:29-30...it is game over.
I always like when guys like you attempt to start Eph 1:at verse 13, as if 1-12 did not exist.
That fact that all men everywhere are responsible to repent and believe says nothing about them except they are without excuse.
I prefer Jesus doctrine of election. If Augustine's or Calvin or anyone else looked at it, it does not change what is written.

twin1954 · Aug 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You are correct, and therefore they do not come with Calvinism unless the missionary ignores certain passages of scripture like the ones below.

The following three passage prove that regeneration does not precede faith.

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

The next verse proves that God wants every man to repent, unless you are a Calvinist who must redefine the word "all" to mean only the elect.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The following verse proves that the reference to Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 is about the election of a nation, instead of the salvation of an individual.

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

For some strange reason Calvinists never seem to bring up the verses above.
Instead, when the opponents of Calvinism produce them Calvinists attempt to explain them away to make Augustine's doctrine of election work.
Augustine did the same thing.

.

First of all to take those verses out of their context in order to prove your pretext is not only being dishonest with us but with the Scriptures as well. It is called proof texting and has long been understood as a poor way to interpret and understand the Scriptures.
Moreover proper hermeneutics demands that we don't interpret Scripture by single verses but by the analogy of faith, the teaching of the whole not just individual verses. No verse in Scripture stands alone.

Seeking to find verses to backup your preconceived notions is bad theology. Sure single verses sometimes can be used as long as they do no damage to the context and meaning of the text as a whole. But it isn't a good practice.

You obviously either don't know what Calvinists believe and why or you choose to ignore it in order to rail against a caricature you have made up. Repeating the same untruth over and over, especially after it has been thoroughly refuted more than once, doesn't make it true. Why is it that those in your camp do this constantly? Move on to something else you are beating a dead horse.

BABerean2 · Aug 21, 2019

twin1954 said:
First of all to take those verses out of their context in order to prove your pretext is not only being dishonest with us but with the Scriptures as well. It is called proof texting and has long been understood as a poor way to interpret and understand the Scriptures.
Moreover proper hermeneutics demands that we don't interpret Scripture by single verses but by the analogy of faith, the teaching of the whole not just individual verses. No verse in Scripture stands alone.

Seeking to find verses to backup your preconceived notions is bad theology. Sure single verses sometimes can be used as long as they do no damage to the context and meaning of the text as a whole. But it isn't a good practice.

You obviously either don't know what Calvinists believe and why or you choose to ignore it in order to rail against a caricature you have made up. Repeating the same untruth over and over, especially after it has been thoroughly refuted more than once, doesn't make it true. Why is it that those in your camp do this constantly?

When you point one finger at me, several of your fingers are pointing back in your direction, because every tactic you described above is what makes Augustine's viewpoint of election work.

Mat_7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat_7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat_7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

.

twin1954 · Aug 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
When you point one finger at me, several of your fingers are pointing back in your direction, because every tactic you described above is what makes Augustine's viewpoint of election work.

Mat_7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat_7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat_7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

.

Didn't I say "we" in that post? I never made the claim that I am above reproach. But what I said is true and the fact that your best retort is something children say to one another is telling.

Why didn't you show me how and where I am wrong.

twin1954 · Aug 21, 2019

Dr. Jack said:
Please provide a Scripture text to support that assertion.

2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis

It is clear that Adam did not know good and evil, prior to the fall.

The Scripture is clear that Adam did NOT have a sin nature prior to the fall; but that ISN'T the purpose of this thread.

This thread deals with the Calvinistic doctrine of "determinism"; the fact that God determined the fall of Adam, prior to the creation.

The Covenant of Redemption was made prior to creation amongst the Godhead,. God determined to be man's redeemer, but of necessity, that means that God also determined Man to fall (Adam).

Determinism has two elements: 1) foreknowledge (of the event); and 2) purpose to bring about the outcome of the event.

If there is a race between two people, but a person has determined that person "A" must win, the person who has determined that person "A" must win, takes actions to assure the outcome of the race. This means that the person who has determined person "A" must win, and took actions to assure the outcome of the race, is responsible for person "A" winning the race.

God determined Adam would fall, and took actions to insure Adam did fall, (according to Calvinism), but Calvinists refuse to acknowledge this problem.

I will get to this I promise.

BABerean2 · Aug 21, 2019

ICONO'CLAST said:
I prefer Jesus doctrine of election.

Me too.

Did Jesus command men to do something?
Yes. He commanded them to "repent" and accept the Gospel of His blood sacrifice at Calvary.

Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

......................

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

.

twin1954 · Aug 22, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Me too.

Did Jesus command men to do something?
Yes. He commanded them to "repent" and accept the Gospel of His blood sacrifice at Calvary.

Mat_3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat_4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mar_1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Mar_6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent.

Luk_13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luk_16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

......................

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

.

God commands all men everywhere to repent but that in no way implies ability only responsibility.

BTW, Jesus was telling them to repent of their religion.

BABerean2 · Aug 22, 2019

twin1954 said:
God commands all men everywhere to repent but that in no way implies ability only responsibility.

BTW, Jesus was telling them to repent of their religion.

It is your claim that God must "repent" for a person, before they can come to faith?

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

.

twin1954 · Aug 22, 2019

BABerean2 said:
It is your claim that God must "repent" for a person, before they can come to faith?

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

.

No Calvinist, especially me, ever made such a ridiculous claim. You are not actually debating Calvinism you are debating a straw man that you call Calvinism. Not honest.

BABerean2 · Aug 22, 2019

twin1954 said:
No Calvinist, especially me, ever made such a ridiculous claim. You are not actually debating Calvinism you are debating a straw man that you call Calvinism. Not honest.

When faced with a question that Calvinism cannot honestly answer, why do you accuse me of not being honest?

.

Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

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