Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

Contenders Edge · Aug 20, 2019

claninja said:
You have only provided your debatable interpretations from scripture that do not explicitly mention land restoration. There is, in fact, not one explicit or clear text in the NT that mentions land restoration, thus I have already proved that you are using an argument from ignorance.

To counter my argument, you need to provide at least 1 NT scripture that explicitly mentions land restoration, and not your interpretation of a passage that does not even mention land restoration...just provide NT scripture that explicitly and clearly mentions land restoration, and not your debatable interpration of NT scritpure.

In order to prove that my argument is one from ignorance, the following passages of scripture could not exist: Jeremiah 30:11, the entire chapter of Ezekiel 37, Amos 9:15, Zechariah 12-14, and Malachi 3:6.

Only then would I have no basis for claiming that Romans chapter 11 implies eventual land restoration or the restoration of any earthly blessings pertaining to Israel upon their repentance. Even Romans chapter 11 has its foundation upon Old Testament scriptures. If that were not so, the chapter as we know it would not exist.

claninja said:
These promises are under the old covenant agreement. The old covenant agreement is no longer in effect.

Permanent means permanent and such declarations are not dependent upon a Covenant that was only meant to be temporal in the first place.

claninja said:
No, which parts of the old covenant have not been fulfilled yet?

Most of the prophecies I cited were given under the Old Covenant and still have not yet come to pass which means their fulfillment is yet to come under the New Covenant.

claninja said:
No, as the promises of the old covenant were conditional and not unconditional, thus doing away with the promises of the conditional agreement does not change God's faithfulness, it testifies to it.

The promises around which this debate centers are not conditional in the sense we understand "conditional." They are what might arguably be called "semi-conditional" promises meaning that as long as Israel remained faithful to God, they experience all the blessings and exalted status that God has desired to bestow upon them.

But due to their unbelief, the blessings promised to them were taken away from them and withheld, but not lost to them. They will receive them again when they repent.

There was only one promise made by God that was undeniably conditional and that was for a man to remain perpetually on the throne of David. That was only on the condition that Israel did not turn away from God, but because of their persistent rebellion, the house of David was bereft of the throne and will continue to remain without a king until the return of our Lord.

claninja said:
The greek form of the word used in exodus 32:13b is spermati, which is singular. The singular use of seed is used in regard to the land.

The greek septuagint predates the masoretic texts by almost 1000 years. Considering the NT writers quote from the septuagint translation and not the masoretic translation, as that did not exist in their time, I have not problem with LXX.

We really do not know what version of the Old Testament scriptures Jesus and the Apostles really quoted from but what version they did cite from was consistent with the original. Otherwise, they would not have cited from it.

Furthermore, the scriptures read by the Jews in their time would have still been in Hebrew. It would have made no sense for them to read in any other language other than their own. The only ones who might have read the scriptures in Greek would have been Greek converts to Judaism.

As for the Greek word "Spermati", it is not found in Strong's Concordance. The word that comes closest to this is called "Sperma" and the definition thereof is not strictly applied to the singular or plural but can be applied either way.

claninja said:
It was made manifest when Christ ascended to heaven in front of many witnesses.

What was manifested was His power over death which justified His sacrifice. But the promise of the inheritance will not be made manifest until Christ is seen ruling the earth from Israel, His chosen nation as has been foretold.

In order for a prophecy or promise to be fulfilled, the fulfillment must match what was promised and foretold. When that day comes, there will be no question about it.

claninja said:
We should always use scripture to interpret scripture. you still have not addressed how God sowing Israel with man and beast along with giving them the new covenant is different than the son of man sowing the good seed.

Similar expressions but applied to different subject matter. One is focused on the restoration of Israel. The other pertains to the spreading of the Gospel throughout the world.

claninja said:
It says Israel will be sown with man and beast

And in their homeland as the cited passage from Jeremiah implies.

keras · Aug 20, 2019

claninja said:
Joppa/Jaffa was located in the northern kingdom

Point conceded.

claninja said:
We appear to sort of agree on the principle, just not the location.

Just read carefully Psalms 107 for where the Redeemed people of the Lord, who are gathered out of the nations, travel to and settle in.
Earth is our home, we never go to heaven and after the Millennium, it will be heaven on earth, Revelation 21-22, just like it was in Adams time.

claninja said:
There are multiple definitive statements on going to heaven:

They are all prophesies about Eternity. Proved by Matthew 11:23-24, Daniel 12:13 and others that show it will be at the Great White Throne, after the Millennium, that every human that has ever lived will stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
There is no change into spiritual, eternal beings before that.

Contenders Edge · Aug 20, 2019

claninja said:
Considering Jesus uses the past tense of "have received" authority, we see that those who overcome until the end will be given the authority that Jesus already has. Thus the preterist believes that Jesus already has this authority from heaven and when the believer overcomes and goes home to be with Christ, they become co heirs in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Revelation 2:26-26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rulec them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

claninja said:
As the body of CHirst is all over the world today and not localized to the earthly Jerusalem, we can in fact see that Jesus is conquering and bringing truth to the nations.

There are souls being rescued from damnation and the darkness of this present world in every nation but the nations of the world do not believe themselves to be conquered by anything much less Christ.

If that were the case, they would all be in submission to Christ, but most persist in rejecting the Gospel and His followers are persecuted throughout much of the world. At present, our duty is to call and persuade as many souls to Christ as we can and to be the best representatives that we can be for Him, but His conquering power will not be realized by the world until He enforces it.

The day that Christ enforces His Lordship will bring judgment upon the wicked and deliverance for His people. In this present age, men have the choice to confess Christ as Lord willingly. In the day that He does return, those who have not confessed Him as Lord willingly will be forced to.

claninja said:
All theological doctrines use singular verses whether they agree they do or not. Typically, those verses should be non apocalyptic or parabolic language so they are less debatable.

I suppose this would include Preterism as much as any other doctrine. For any verses used to build a case for any doctrine to be non apocalyptic or without debate is an impossibility because there will always be someone to challenge any doctrine formed no matter how consistent with scripture it may be.

claninja said:
You'll have to ask Paul, if you disagree with him. Paul spoke in very clear and explicit terminology. I, on the other hand, will take him on his word. (properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.

There is more of what Paul said regarding the witness of God than in just the one passage you cite. As for your definition of Oikumene, Strong’s definition does not entirely match yours His definition does not necessarily regard the lands outside the Roman empire as being of no account.

claninja said:
"This generation shall not pass away until all these things occur"

And yet that generation has passed away without all things being fulfilled as far as history is concerned unless the possibility of even a few members of that generation remaining until the return of our Lord is considered. (Jn. 21:22-23)

claninja said:
So then we should not all use any signs in the heavens to indicate forthcoming events, correct? the sun turning black and the moon not giving its light and the stars falling from the sky should not indicate forth coming events by your logic then. (just FYI, as a preterist I don't necessarily believe the "sun going black, the moon not giving its light, nor the stars falling from heaven" as literal events, but instead apocalyptic language used to describe the fall of governments. If those are accompanied by solar/lunar eclipses and shooting stars, then so be it.)

The astronomical signs preceding Christ’s return have already been declared. Aside from what scripture has declared, we should not be searching the heavens for signs of forthcoming events. Such is forbidden by scripture. Any signs needed will come to us, and there is no contextual evidence that the signs preceding the return of our Lord are symbolic. They are presented as being literal.

claninja said:
signs in the heavens as they are related to events on earth are more related to astrology then astronomy.

The signs in the heavens of which the scriptures speak have nothing to do with astrology. Astrology attempts to chart the positioning of existing heavenly bodies (i.e. stars and planets) to predict forthcoming events, but the signs in the heavens of which the scriptures speak are not a product of nature. They are supernatural phenomena which the occultic practice of astrology is incapable of anticipating.

claninja said:
The coming of Christ in judgment on Israel occurred just as Jesus said it would, "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur". Did the temple fall? yes just as Jesus predicted within the generation that lived during the 1st century.

Israel was punished for its rejection of its King, but does not qualify as the second coming of Christ because Christ did not descend from Heaven in that day. When He does, He will bring judgment to the entire world and not just one nation or people and not only will He bring judgment, but He will deliver the righteous and will bring His Kingdom to the earth.

claninja said:
it does give a pretty good picture. If earthqaukes were increasing, as you claim, wouldn't the data show an increase of earthqaukes from 2010 to 2018? Data manipulation would include leaving out the outliers. I included one of the outliers by including the year 2010, which was one of the highest years of earthquakes.

...additionally, both the USGS and BSG agree that earthquakes have not increased in any significance since 1990. What has changed since the 1990s is our ability to measure earthquake frequency, not the frequency themselves. From 2010 to 2018, frequency decreased overall even if you don't want to accept it and the USGS also agrees that earthquakes haven't increased in frequency in statistically significant matter.

I did not leave out any outliers either. I took all years listed into account. But if we were to simply rely on just eight out of nearly thirty years of tracking, the data would appear, at best inconclusive because 2010 shows over two thousand earthquakes taking place around the world in that year. The next year after that, they are far fewer but the rest of the years still show a fluctuative yet gradual increase in earthquake frequency once more as the frequency gradually climbs back up to over eighteen hundred in 2018; several hundred more than in 2011.

But with all twenty eight years taken into account, an increase in the earthquake activity is clearly shown. The interpretation of the data by the USGS is once again based upon a secular presupposition which is not going to lead a secular-minded scientist to compare their data to biblical prophecies.

As for the improvement in earthquake detection, this is only pertaining to those so-called earthquakes that no one feels and are of no consequence. This was not what Jesus was talking about.

claninja said:
since we don't have record of every earthquake since the time of Jesus, we in fact, don't have all the data, and therefore cannot show that earthquakes have been increasing with absolute certainty.

Which is why we consult the data that we do have between then and now.

claninja said:
I absolutely agree. So where did Jesus say that earthquakes would increase in frequency?

When Jesus foretold that there would be earthquakes in various places around the world, it could only refer to an increase in earthquakes. It would make no sense for Him to foretell things that were already taking place. And earthquakes obviously had already been taking place before He came to earth.

Contenders Edge · Aug 20, 2019

jgr said:
All three believe that Galatians 3:16 does not refer to Christ alone.

All three therefore believe that Paul was wrong.

One of them declares it explicitly, the other two do not.

But the inescapable conclusion is the same for all three.

And they are not alone.

You have made the wrongful assumption that just because one of the three scholars declared Paul to be in error that the other two agree. If the other two did not charge Paul with error, then it is safe and reasonable to assume that what was said by the one is not entirely representative of what they believe.

Contenders Edge · Aug 20, 2019

jgr said:
No critique necessary to answer a simple question with a simple yes or no:

Does Galatians 3:16 refer to Christ alone?

Christ is called the promised seed in that passage, but that appears to pose a challenge to scriptural consistency since Moses refers to the seed in the plural. (Ex. 32:13) Except that all the Jews who embrace the promised seed become joint-heirs to the promised land with Him, it remains a contradiction. And I refuse to believe that the inerrant inspired Word of God contradicts itself.

Contenders Edge · Aug 20, 2019

BABerean2 said:
If you cut all of the references to the New Covenant out of your Bible, maybe you can make the above work. Your Two Peoples of God doctrine cannot help but produce contradictions, because it is a man-made doctrine.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, The Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

“The Prophecy of Daniel 9” by Dr. Kelly Varner.

.

I do not have to cut out anything to make the doctrine of a faithful promise keeping God work. But in order for Preterism to work, the entire 37th chapter of Ezekiel (especially verse 25) and Zechariah chapters 12-14 would have to be cut out as would Jeremiah 30:11 and Amos 9:15.

Malachi 3:6 and Hebrews 10:23 and 13:8 would have to be done away with as well. Much of Romans chapter 9 and all of chapter 11 would have to go as well.

There are many other passages that could be listed as well, but I am only listing those that pertain to the topic of this thread.

keras · Aug 21, 2019

The 'seed/s' of Abraham are every faithful Christian, Jew and Gentile. But as the people who are actual descendants of the ten Northern tribes as referred to in the NT, as 'gentile', they are Israelites by birth as well as by faith.
The will go together with those grafted in by faith alone and live in all of the holy Land:
Jeremiah 12:14-16 These are the Words of the Lord: I am against all those evil neighbours who have encroached onto the Land that My Israelite people will inherit. Take note; I will pluck them out from where they are now and also I will pluck out the House of Judah as well. After I have removed them, I will Return and have compassion on them, bringing them back to their heritage, if they will diligently learn the way of My people, to only swear by My Name: the Living God. But if they refuse, then I will completely remove and destroy them.
This Bible passage is extremely informative, it gives the Lord’s plans for three groups of people:
1/ The evil neighbours; The Islamic nations and entities surrounding Israel. Soon to be cleared out of the entire Middle East region by the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath by fire from the sun. Psalms 83:1-18, Isaiah 30:25-30, Amos 1:1-11, 2:1-5
2/ The House of Judah, the Jewish people, currently inhabiting a part of the holy Land. The same fate as the neighbours, but a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13, Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 9:27
3/ My people; the true Israelites of God, every Christian believer; individuals from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10, 1 Peter 2:9-10

The story described here, is clear and concise: The Lord is about to solve all the Middle East problems, to a similar degree as how He reset civilization in Noah’s time. All the holy land will be depopulated, Jeremiah 10:18, excepting a small remnant of Messianic Jews who will shelter in bunkers in Jerusalem. Isaiah 29:4
This will allow the gathering and settling of His righteous Christian people into their heritage where they will, at last be the people He always wanted there; a people who will be His witnesses and display His light to the nations. Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

jgr · Aug 21, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Christ is called the promised seed in that passage, but that appears to pose a challenge to scriptural consistency since Moses refers to the seed in the plural. (Ex. 32:13) Except that all the Jews who embrace the promised seed become joint-heirs to the promised land with Him, it remains a contradiction. And I refuse to believe that the inerrant inspired Word of God contradicts itself.

The word "but" does not appear in Galatians 3:16.

No mention of "Jews who embrace..." because in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek" (Galatians 3:28).

No challenge. No inconsistency. No contradiction.

Genesis 22:18
2233 [e]
ḇə·zar·‘ă·ḵā,
בְזַרְעֲךָ֔
in your seed
Prep b | N msc | 2ms
2ms = second person masculine singular

Exodus 32:13
2233 [e]
zar·‘ă·ḵem,
זַרְעֲכֶ֔ם
your descendants
N msc | 2mp
2mp = second person masculine plural

BABerean2 · Aug 21, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
I do not have to cut out anything to make the doctrine of a faithful promise keeping God work.

At one time my wife and I were members of a conservative Bible church, which promoted modern Dispensational Theology. As a matter of fact it could be found in the church's constitution.

During a period of about 5 years we never heard a sermon, or a Sunday-school lesson on the New Covenant. Why not?

Because an understanding of the New Covenant promised to Israel, and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, kills the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.

Personal attacks started coming in my direction when I gave the information in the following video to my pastors. This video exposes the recent history of your doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

Genesis of Dispensational Theology

.

claninja · Aug 21, 2019

keras said:
Just read carefully Psalms 107 for where the Redeemed people of the Lord, who are gathered out of the nations, travel to and settle in.

Psalm 107 is generally accepted as being written around the time after the Babylonian exile. It's primary application would be then be about the return from Babylonian exile.

keras said:
Earth is our home, we never go to heaven and after the Millennium, it will be heaven on earth, Revelation 21-22, just like it was in Adams time.

I disagree, as scripture states our citizenship is in heaven, we have an eternal house in the heaven, and we will be brought safely into the heavenly kingdom.

If Jesus died, rose again, and ascended to heaven to receive the kingdom, why would believers do it differently?

keras said:
They are all prophesies about Eternity. Proved by Matthew 11:23-24, Daniel 12:13 and others that show it will be at the Great White Throne, after the Millennium, that every human that has ever lived will stand before God in Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
There is no change into spiritual, eternal beings before that.

What is a forerunner, keras?

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 21, 2019

jgr said: ↑
No critique necessary to answer a simple question with a simple yes or no:

Does Galatians 3:16 refer to Christ alone?

Contenders Edge said:
Christ is called the promised seed in that passage, but that appears to pose a challenge to scriptural consistency since Moses refers to the seed in the plural. (Ex. 32:13) Except that all the Jews who embrace the promised seed become joint-heirs to the promised land with Him, it remains a contradiction. And I refuse to believe that the inerrant inspired Word of God contradicts itself.

So in essence, you are accusing others of contradicting the Word of God.......
The Jews need Jesus and you are not helping in that......
The Jews are in the land now........
The Cross and their Messiah fully fulfilled everything written for them..............It is the Jews of today and many Dispensationalists that are twisting the words of the Scriptures.....
All this squabbling over a piece of land in the Mid East is neither fruitful nor edifying......

John 5:39
"Ye are searching the Writings that ye are seeming in them life age-during to be having, and those are the ones-testifying about Me".

2Peter 3:16
As also/and in all the letters, speaking in them about these-things; in which are difficult to understand any which the un-learned and un-steadfast are wresting/twisting as also the rest of Writings, toward the own of them destruction/apwleian <684>. [# 684 used reve 17:8, 11]

2 Corinthians 3:
12 Having then such hope, we use much freedom of speech, 13 and [are] not as Moses, who was putting a veil<2571> upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless, 14 but their minds were hardened, for unto this day the same veil<2571> at the reading of the Old Covenant doth remain unwithdrawn — which in Christ is being made useless —
15 but till to-day, when Moses is read, a veil<2571> upon their heart doth lie,
16 and whenever they may turn unto the Lord, the veil<2571> is taken away. 17 And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty; 18 and we all, with unvailed face, the glory of the Lord beholding in a mirror, to the same image are being transformed, from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Revelation 1:1
An unveiling/revealing<602<2572> of Jesus Christ, which gives to him, the God, to show to the bond-servants of Him which-things is binding to be becoming in swiftness. And He signifies-it, commissioning thru the messenger of Him, to the bond-servant of Him, John.
=======

keras · Aug 21, 2019

claninja said:
Psalm 107 is generally accepted as being written around the time after the Babylonian exile. It's primary application would be then be about the return from Babylonian exile.

I like the last verse of Psalms 107:43 Whoever is wise, let him lay these things to heart and ponder the loving deeds of the Lord.
You have to be a rabid, card carrying preterist to even consider that Psalm 107 fits with the Babylonian return. It was written around 500 BC, but it awaits fulfilment and what the so called 'wise' commentators, etc, think it means, is worthless. Matthew 11:25
It could almost pertain to the Jewish return to Israel, but it doesn't, as verse 42, The upright see it and are glad, while the evildoers are no more; obviously has not happened yet.

claninja said:
I disagree, as scripture states our citizenship is in heaven, we have an eternal house in the heaven, and we will be brought safely into the heavenly kingdom.

If only there was a scripture that plainly said something like: The Lord will rescue His people and give them peace in heaven...... But there isn't.
So; interpreting 'citizenship, houses, safety, etc', as having to actually go to heaven to receive those promises, is adding to scripture.
What many prophesies DO say, is how the Lord will bless and prosper His people on earth.
Revelation 20:11-15 is clear; only after the Millennium, will the Book of Life be opened and those worthy given immortality. The idea of going to heaven before then necessitates a change into a spiritual form, something never stated to happen before the GWT Judgment.

claninja said:
If Jesus died, rose again, and ascended to heaven to receive the kingdom, why would believers do it differently?

Because we are His creation; humans made to live on earth. Jesus is and always was.

claninja said:
What is a forerunner, keras?

You tell me. If you think we go to heaven because Jesus did, you are sadly mistaken.
I suggest that you give some time to thinking what we are here for, what is our tasks, as Christians?

Contenders Edge · Aug 21, 2019

parousia70 said:
The Church has never REPLACED Israel, it always WAS, and Remains Israel...Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the 7000 Faithful of Israel who refused to Bow their Knee to Baal also "Replaced" Israel(1 Kings 19:1-18; Romans 11:2-36) Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying The Faithful "Church" of the nation in the Wilderness "Replaced" Israel when they entered the Promised Land (Numbers 14:26-45; Numbers 21:5-9; Numbers 16:1-50, Acts 7:38-45)
Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the small but faithful remnant In Isaiah's day "Replaced" Israel. (Isaiah 10:22-23; Isaiah 1:7-9; Romans 9:27-29)

The Church NEVER Replaced Israel, the Church is, and always was, the Faithful Remnant OF Israel, and indeed is the only entity through which the continuation of the NATION of Israel itself MUST be counted, for the rest were cut off forever (Acts 3:22-24)

The Church was established by Christ and is first mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew. So how could it have existed before Christ came to the earth? Obviously, there were godly people before the New Testament just as there is today, but the Old Testament saints were never called a “Church.”

But any further discussion on that matter might stray from the topic of this thread and would be best discussed and debated on another.

As for Acts 3:22-24, that passage says that they who would not receive the Messiah would be cut off, not that they were already cut off. They did face judgment for their rejection which cannot be denied yet they still abide though most of them remain in unbelief, yet the day is coming when their unbelief will be purged from them but the end result will be only a remnant of them being spared. (Rom. 9:27) It is that remnant who is repentant, but it will be a remnant large enough to continue abiding as a people and a nation and which will be able to recover from the losses sustained from that divine purging.

If the rest were already cut off, how is it that they abide still, even as nation re-established in their homeland?

parousia70 said:
Here is the Scriptural TRUTH about the Identity of Israel:
The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Romans 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Romans 4:16/Galatians 3:29),

The Apostle Paul was presenting the distinction between the Jew by blood and the one who is a Jew inwardly (spiritual transformation through Christ) to make clear that being of the lineage of Abraham did not gain favor with God, but what gains favor with God is our faith in Christ only. He certainly was not denying the existence of the Jews as a distinct people from the rest of the nations. In fact, in Galatians 6:16, Paul blesses the nation of Israel with peace in spite of their hostility towards the Gospel.

parousia70 said:
say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9-10),

That is one promise that both the Church and Israel share in common but as to all the promises pertaining to each, that is another topic for another thread.

parousia70 said:
say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Peter 2:10)

This epistle was written to a Gentile audience. No Gentile nation or people was set apart from the rest of the world like Israel has been since God dealt with the people of Israel on a much more direct and personal level than He has with other nations. But Peter goes on to explain that the Gentiles, who were not the people of God, became people of the Lord when they placed their faith in Him and in Him alone.

parousia70 said:
say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Galatians 6:15-16)...and say I am the circumcision (Philippians 3:2-3).

The uncircumcised meaning those lacking the outward sign and the circumcision meaning the inward circumcision. The Apostles through whom Christ established the Church were both circumcised outwardly and inwardly.

parousia70 said:
Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Revelation 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 John 2:23)

Jesus makes no distinction between the spiritual Jew and the Jew by blood in this case. Whoever these “false” Jews were, as far as context of the passage is concerned, they were lying about being of the seed of Abraham and if they were lying about that, they clearly were lying about being spiritual Jews as well.

They were neither one.

parousia70 · Aug 21, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
The Church was established by Christ and is first mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew. So how could it have existed before Christ came to the earth? Obviously, there were godly people before the New Testament just as there is today, but the Old Testament saints were never called a “Church.”

Really?
Acts 7:38
38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

As for Acts 3:22-24, that passage says that they who would not receive the Messiah would be cut off, not that they were already cut off. They did face judgment for their rejection which cannot be denied yet they still abide..If the rest were already cut off, how is it that they abide still, even as nation re-established in their homeland?.

Do they?

Name ONE Human being alive today who is genetically descended from ANY pre-desolation Hebrew person.

Just one will do.

If you are making the claim that even one exists, or as you say "abides", today, you should be able to name him for us, and show us His lineage demonstrating which pre-desolation Hebrew person he is descended from..

What is His name please, and what is the name of the pre desolation Hebrew he is descended from?

Those of us to whom facts matter would like to test the veracity of your claim.

Contenders Edge · Aug 21, 2019

jgr said:
The word "but" does not appear in Galatians 3:16.

No mention of "Jews who embrace..." because in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek" (Galatians 3:28).

No challenge. No inconsistency. No contradiction.

Genesis 22:18
2233 [e]
ḇə·zar·‘ă·ḵā,
בְזַרְעֲךָ֔
in your seed
Prep b | N msc | 2ms
2ms = second person masculine singular

Exodus 32:13
2233 [e]
zar·‘ă·ḵem,
זַרְעֲכֶ֔ם
your descendants
N msc | 2mp
2mp = second person masculine plural

Apart from the Jews who submit themselves to Christ and become joint-heirs with Him and dwell in the promised land with Him, there is a contradiction around which there is no way and the two Hebrew definitions of "seed" you presented only serve to prove my point.

Contenders Edge · Aug 21, 2019

parousia70 said:
Really?
Acts 7:38
38 This is he that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel that spake to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received living oracles to give unto us:

Do they?

Name ONE Human being alive today who is genetically descended from ANY pre-desolation Hebrew person.

Just one will do.

If you are making the claim that even one exists, or as you say "abides", today, you should be able to name him for us, and show us His lineage demonstrating which pre-desolation Hebrew person he is descended from..

What is His name please, and what is the name of the pre desolation Hebrew he is descended from?

Those of us to whom facts matter would like to test the veracity of your claim.

Stephen may have called the people of Israel a "church" but before Christ, the term was foreign to them. the Church was something new.

Did you ever take the time to read all the source links that I provided you which pertain to identifying Jews by blood through DNA testing? The one thing they all have in common is that they claim and present scientific evidence that Jews and they of Jewish descent possess genes that no other ethnic group possesses.

Where did those genes come from which are unique to them and no one else if not from the pre-desolation Hebrews who are also descended from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob? A bloodline and a unique set of genes does not just appear out of thin air. Continue to argue against that and you are not just arguing against me, you are arguing with science and reason which vindicate the validity of scripture and our faith.

Contenders Edge · Aug 21, 2019

BABerean2 said:
At one time my wife and I were members of a conservative Bible church, which promoted modern Dispensational Theology. As a matter of fact it could be found in the church's constitution.

During a period of about 5 years we never heard a sermon, or a Sunday-school lesson on the New Covenant.

You mean to say that they were only preaching out of the Old Testament and not out of the New Testament? That they started at the book of Genesis and stopped at the book of Malachi?

BABerean2 said:
This video exposes the recent history of your doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby about the time of the Civil War.

Again, a common misconception. John Nelson Darby did not invent the doctrines upon which Dispensationalism is founded. I do not know who actually coined the term, but the central tenets credited with the formation of what is called Dispensationalism have been around even before then. They just had not been as widespread as they had come to be in the nineteenth century.

Contenders Edge · Aug 21, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
So in essence, you are accusing others of contradicting the Word of God.......
The Jews need Jesus and you are not helping in that......
The Jews are in the land now........
The Cross and their Messiah fully fulfilled everything written for them..............It is the Jews of today and many Dispensationalists that are twisting the words of the Scriptures.....
All this squabbling over a piece of land in the Mid East is neither fruitful nor edifying......

How have I hindered the Gospel for the Jews? That they are back in their land as a sovereign nation is a prophetic fulfillment and evidence that God is faithful in the keeping of His promises. If God is faithful in keeping even what we might call the least of all His promises, we can be confident in the fulfillment of even the greatest of His promises.

This debate and “squabbling” may be just about a piece of land to you, but it is really about the integrity of God. If God is faithful in keeping promises He has made to one group of people, we can be sure that He will do the same for us, but if He is not faithful in fulfilling all promises He made to them, then the promises that He has made to us are no good either and we are left with uncertainty about our ultimate fate.

Preterists are guilty of the very same things you have accused me of.

jgr · Aug 21, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Apart from the Jews who submit themselves to Christ and become joint-heirs with Him and dwell in the promised land with Him, there is a contradiction around which there is no way and the two Hebrew definitions of "seed" you presented only serve to prove my point.

No mention of "Jews who submit..." because in Christ "there is neither Jew nor Greek" (Galatians 3:28).

God spoke to Abraham using "seed" singular.
God spoke to Moses using "seed" plural.
God does not speak in contradictions.
He allows dispens that freedom.

BABerean2 · Aug 21, 2019

Contenders Edge said:
Again, a common misconception. John Nelson Darby did not invent the doctrines upon which Dispensationalism is founded. I do not know who actually coined the term, but the central tenets credited with the formation of what is called Dispensationalism have been around even before then.

The doctrine was actually invented by Edward Irving, as revealed by the YouTube video "Genesis of Dispensational Theology". Irving used the term "dispensation" thirteen times on one page of his writings promoting the doctrine. After Irving died in 1834 John Darby adopted Irving's doctrine and became its greatest salesman, especially in the United States.

Darby was the one responsible for dividing up the New Testament into that for Israel, and that for the Church.

PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418

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