How sinful is Judas Iscariot?

seeking.IAM

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As a young man I read Kazantzakis. I believe it was in The Last Temptation of Christ - or maybe it was The Greek Passion - he speculated about the importance of Judas' role in Christ's sacrifice. I have always been intrigued by the question: How would the story have been different if Judas had turned away from sin and temptation? Or would it have been different? :scratch:
 
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bling

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Difference was Jesus prayed for Peter to be turned back to Him and he was.
Jesus did not pray for Judas.
In fact, when Judas is about to betray Christ, Jesus tells him to do it quickly.

The difference is Peter was elect. And Judas not elect.
Romans 8
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

So, we blame Judas going to hell on Jesus not praying for him?
 
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sdowney717

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So, we blame Judas going to hell on Jesus not praying for him?
Definitely.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

And definitely YES, Christ prays only for us who believe who are elect, (those the Father has given to the Son)
John 17:9
“I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.
 
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JackRT

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I am super glad Christ and the Holy Spirit prays for me to our Omnipotent Father God Almighty, because otherwise, I wont survive intact. God keeps us by faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last times. (time) 1 Peter 1:3-5 Can you feel the LOVE of God here in how HE prays for us?

Who does God pray to?
 
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bling

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I am super glad Christ and the Holy Spirit prays for me to our Omnipotent Father God Almighty, because otherwise, I wont survive intact. God keeps us by faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last times. (time) 1 Peter 1:3-5 Can you feel the LOVE of God here in how HE prays for us?
Would Christ want to pray for the non-elect or are they somehow different from the elect, so He is kept from doing so?
 
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sdowney717

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Would Christ want to pray for the non-elect or are they somehow different from the elect, so He is kept from doing so?
No, His will is to do the Father's will, that is His choice. He has His own will. He has the power to lay down His life or take it up again, of His own choice. However it was the Father that raised Christ from the dead.

Some verses to think about
John 4:33-35 New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?”

34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!

John 5
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

The Fourfold Witness
31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.

John 6:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

John 11:22
But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
 
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bling

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No, His will is to do the Father's will, that is His choice. He has His own will. He has the power to lay down His life or take it up again, of His own choice. However it was the Father that raised Christ from the dead.

Some verses to think about
John 4:33-35 New King James Version (NKJV)
33 Therefore the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought Him anything to eat?”

34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work. 35 Do you not say, ‘There are still four months and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look at the fields, for they are already white for harvest!

John 5
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

The Fourfold Witness
31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved.

John 6:37-39 New King James Version (NKJV)
37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

John 6:57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

John 11:22
But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father.”

19 Therefore there was a division again among the Jews because of these sayings. 20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”

21 Others said, “These are not the words of one who has a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
The bottom line is: You feel God “arbitrarily”, chose some individuals who were exactly like other individuals before any individual were made to go to hell, since God decided to refuse to helping them.

I feel: God decided from the beginning of time to help all those who would accept His help as charity.

I cannot respect a hero who could just as easily and safely save everyone from a burning building, yet only decides to save a few, even if I am one saved.

I do respect a God who invites everyone to a huge wonderful Loving Party, but does not kidnap those who refuse go to the party.
 
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ChicanaRose

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Judas Iscariot is the desiple who sold Jesus for 30 silver. But also, at the last supper, the devil entered him. Would he have sold Jesus, if the devil had not entered him? I guess he wouldn't have. So how sinful is judas?

Ah, I found this thread after your Hitler thread (don't know how I missed this one).

I think it's important for us to pray the Lord's Prayer daily ("...but deliver us from evil") and pray for protection.

Since Jesus taught this prayer during His ministry on earth, Judas heard it as His disciple. I wonder if he ever prayed it...or maybe he was too busy handling finances...or maybe his heart was never really with Jesus.
 
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eleos1954

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As a young man I read Kazantzakis. I believe it was in The Last Temptation of Christ - or maybe it was The Greek Passion - he speculated about the importance of Judas' role in Christ's sacrifice. I have always been intrigued by the question: How would the story have been different if Judas had turned away from sin and temptation? Or would it have been different? :scratch:

Gods foreknowledge knew this would happen and was prophesied

John 17:12

2 While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled
 
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eleos1954

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Gods foreknowledge knew this would happen and was prophesied and it happened, that's the importance of it.

John 17:12

2 While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled
 
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