Why the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not for Today

Dave L said:

All believers have the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit.

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Scripture does no directly say faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It says faithfulness is. There is a difference.

Dave L said:

This is good but misses the point. Baptized into one body is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit that involved speaking in tongues and raising the dead, or healing twisted limbs which is what defines it.

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It is the same. There is one baptism, that of the Holy Spirit, into one body. Water baptism is not to be done anymore according to 1 Corinthians 1:17a - "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel:"

Some say that verse only pertains to Paul. But how does that reasoning make any sense? The purpose of water baptism was unto repentance, then for salvation, then for showing the cleansing of us from our sins as a demonstration of the work of the blood of Christ. Now, though, we are told that preaching the Gospel is our main commandment after those of loving the Lord God above all else and loving our neighbors as ourselves. Water baptism is understood as ended because Jesus told Paul to end it. The only baptism left is the one that always was, which is that of the Holy Ghost. The signs of baptism by the Holy Ghost were to fulfill the prophecy of Joel, and in speaking in tongues for the sakes of the nonbelievers. Tongues then ceased. Tongues still going on today for worship are improperly used, as they were meant as a sign, not for worship. Further, I have heard it said that one must be able to speak in tongues or they do not have the Holy Spirit, thus are not saved. This is false doctrine. It is written that if you have not the Spirit, you are not of God. In other words, some say that one must speak in tongues to be saved. Baptism by the Spirit is done without any signs at all, but by a change in the nature of the person who is saved, repenting and praising God.

What is the

topher694 said:

Scripture does no directly say faith is a fruit of the Spirit. It says faithfulness is. There is a difference.

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What is the difference?

rockytopva said:

“The chief dangers which confront the coming century will be religion without the Holy Ghost, Christianity without Christ, forgiveness without repentance, salvation without regeneration, politics without God, and heaven without hell.” - General William Booth - Salvation Army 1829-1916

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Which sounds like the old ancients of Israel....

Then said he unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen what the ancients of the house of Israel do in the dark, every man in the chambers of his imagery? for they say, the Lord seeth us not; the Lord hath forsaken the earth. - Ezekiel 8:12

Sound Doctrine said:

What is the difference?

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What's the difference between having faith in my wife and being faithful to my wife?
One centers around trust/belief in, the other around action towards.

Dave L said:

This is not talking about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Have you ever asked Jesus into your heart?

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Yes Christ dwells in my heart by faith and Jesus Christ is in all believers since Adam.

But Jesus mentions the Holy Spirit here. He did not say the Father will give Jesus Christ in their hearts here.

There are three that bear record in heaven the Father the Word and the Holy Ghost.

We also read.

John 7:39. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Acts 5:32. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”

And consider

Mark 12:36. For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.”

Luke 1:15. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.”

All must have the Spirit of Christ , the (Spirit of Jesus Christ) to be saved but not all have the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit) the same, or the Spirit of the Father.

In OT times the Holy Ghost was there in measure and a somewhat different ministration than the New Testament.

But the Spirit of the Father also spoke in all believers before the Holy Ghost baptism was given.As we read in Matthew 10

“ Matthew 10:20. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”

Believers have both the Father and the Son

And we read of a Trinity of TriUnity

We read of the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of the Son and the Holy Ghost (Holy Spirit).

And to be filled with the Spirit or have the Spirit come upon you in the OT times is different than the Spirit given without measure or baptized with the Holy Ghost.

We read about Spiritual power and aspects of the Holy Spirits work in the OT also.

Dave L said:

You are confusing the Holy Spirit that all believers have. With the now long gone Baptism of the Holy Spirit the Apostles had. Read the OP carefully.

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Scripture does not directly state that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is long gone, therefore it must still be here.

Dave L said:

You are confusing the Holy Spirit that all believers have. With the now long gone Baptism of the Holy Spirit the Apostles had. Read the OP carefully.

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I’m trying hard not to do this.

I know that the Spirit of the Father is Holy and the Spirit of the Son is Holy and the Holy Ghost is Holy. But the distinction is in scripture from the Holy Ghost and The Spirit of Jesus Christ and the Spirit of the Father.

We read verses where each has a specific reference.

Consider,

2 John 1:9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”

Galatians 4:6. And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”

“ 2 Corinthians 13:3. Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.5...Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?”

Paul speaks of Jesus Christ here specifically not the Holy Ghost baptism.

And we read,

1 John 2:22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.23. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Matthew 28:19. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:”

Distinction in each,

2 Corinthians 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.”

topher694 said:

Scripture does not directly state that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is long gone, therefore it must still be here.

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Yes the baptism with the Holy Ghost is for all believers as we read in scripture,

Acts 2:17. And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:...39. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”

1 Corinthians 14:1. Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.”

Dave L said:

If so, why did Paul need to go to Rome to distribute spiritual gifts?

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To impart what was given him. That was his job as an Apostle as part of establishing churches he had to impart gifts to them so that they can do the work of God more effectively. People started speaking in tongues after they have received the Holy Spirit whether it be by the hands of the Apostles or by the giving of God after the gospel was preached. They did not need an Apostle to lay hands on them to receive it.

Dave L said:

He said "he will baptize you" = 2nd person plural = those present. Not those off in the future. Pharisees and Sadducees were there too. Do you think he meant they would receive the Holy Spirit too.

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What verse are you referring to?

Dave L said:

Baptized into one body is not the Baptism with the Holy Spirit that involved speaking in tongues and raising the dead, or healing twisted limbs which is what defines it.

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No. One strand of thinking is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit results in speaking in tongues; Scripture does not say this.
When Jesus taught the 12 abut the Holy Spirit, he said hat he would convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement, John 16:8-11, he would lead the disciples into truth, John 16:13, he would bring glory to Jesus, John 16:14, he would teach them the things that were from Jesus, John 14:26, John 16:15. The rest of the NT says that when we are filled with the Spirit we are assured that we are God's children, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:16, we will bear the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23, we will be given gifts from the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, we will be able to proclaim that Jesus is Lord, 1 Corinthians 12:3, we will be assured that we belong to Christ, Romans 8:9.
We are urged to walk in, and be led by, the Spirit, Romans 8:5-8 and to be filled with the Spirit, Ephesians 5:18 - I am told the Greek indicates that this should be happening continuously.

Some people in the NT spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit, yes; some still do today, whether you accept it or not. But nowhere does Scripture say, "the ONLY sign that you have received, been baptised and immersed in the Spirit, is if you speak in tongues."

Dave L said:

Please notice, scripture does not support the Pentecostal view. You must add to scripture to support it. Scripture supports my view having no other means of distribution for the Baptism besides the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands.

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And as I keep saying this is only YOUR INTERPRETATION.

In the Gospels Jesus performed 36 miracles so according to your interpretation that is ALL he did and yet John said.

Joh 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The bible is a series of snapshots or time lapse photography. You are making the classic mistake of assuming that the bible contains all information - it doesn't, it only contains what God thinks we need and relevant.

My last word
Mat 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

---SE---

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Prophecy was one of the hearing gifts and usually spoken in their own language. An apostle writing scripture would hear words and write them. They wouldn't have to SPEAK them before writing them.

Tongues was generally used for perfect prayer and perfect praise. We still pray and sing today, so there is obviously a great use of this gift.

Strong in Him said:

No. One strand of thinking is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit results in speaking in tongues; Scripture does not say this.
When Jesus taught the 12 abut the Holy Spirit, he said hat he would convict the world of sin, righteousness and judgement, John 16:8-11, he would lead the disciples into truth, John 16:13, he would bring glory to Jesus, John 16:14, he would teach them the things that were from Jesus, John 14:26, John 16:15. The rest of the NT says that when we are filled with the Spirit we are assured that we are God's children, Romans 8:14, Romans 8:16, we will bear the fruit of the Spirit, Galatians 5:22-23, we will be given gifts from the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:4-11, we will be able to proclaim that Jesus is Lord, 1 Corinthians 12:3, we will be assured that we belong to Christ, Romans 8:9.
We are urged to walk in, and be led by, the Spirit, Romans 8:5-8 and to be filled with the Spirit, Ephesians 5:18 - I am told the Greek indicates that this should be happening continuously.

Some people in the NT spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit, yes; some still do today, whether you accept it or not. But nowhere does Scripture say, "the ONLY sign that you have received, been baptised and immersed in the Spirit, is if you speak in tongues."

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The true evidence of having the Holy Spirit is no longer fulfilling the lust of the flesh. Tongues and the other gifts are in addition to the main power over sin. But one thing is for sure. Without the Holy Spirit, not only do you have no power over sin, but you do not have supernatural gifts either.

No one speaks in tongues today, nobody.
The rhyming noises are just foolish carnal sounds which are meaningless.

CharismaticLady said:

Prophecy was one of the hearing gifts and usually spoken in their own language. An apostle writing scripture would hear words and write them. They wouldn't have to SPEAK them before writing them.

Tongues was generally used for perfect prayer and perfect praise. We still pray and sing today, so there is obviously a great use of this gift.

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This is taught no where in scripture.

ICONO'CLAST said:

No one speaks in tongues today, nobody.
The rhyming noises are just foolish carnal sounds which are meaningless.

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A lady in our church doing otherwise