William Lefranc

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Matthew 24:15-22
Revelation 7:14

Nope. You are assuming two things. One, that Jesus was pretending to talk to His disciples when in fact He was speaking about an intergalactic generation of the far future. Two, you assume that the book of Revelation was not written to the first-century church but also for a far future that you will never see.

Two assumptions place you in a disadvantage from understanding God's word, God's way from God's perspective. ;););)

JESUS PLUS NOTHING.jpg




 
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William Lefranc

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Whoa back! Let's just read it, shall we?

Rev. 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,


I think one would have to have very thick, preconceived glasses on to place this great crowd anywhere else but in the throne room of heaven. If you have doubts, refer back to chapter 4 where John saw the throne room. Note: "the throne room" has always been in heaven.
I refer you to chapter 4:

4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.


Note the highlighted words. Any questions?

in all of the holy Land That statement is in error! (I am being nice: I could have quoted you.)

Note: try removing all preconceptions and read these verses as if you never saw them before - as if with an empty slate. They are in heaven. Period and end of story.

If you don't mind, I would like to know where did you get the idea that the book of Revelation was written for the future? Two (if you don't continue to mind), do you believe that God has given us a book that has been irrelevant to the church for the last 2,000 years? o_Oo_Oo_O
 
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ewq1938

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The great tribulation is made up by people who don't understand the context of the scriptures. :wave:


Like Jesus?

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 
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BABerean2

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If you don't mind, I would like to know where did you get the idea that the book of Revelation was written for the future?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Where did you get the idea that Full-Preterism is correct?

.
 
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Douggg

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Nope. You are assuming two things. One, that Jesus was pretending to talk to His disciples when in fact He was speaking about an intergalactic generation of the far future. Two, you assume that the book of Revelation was not written to the first-century church but also for a far future that you will never see.

Two assumptions place you in a disadvantage from understanding God's word, God's way from God's perspective. ;););)
Hi William, welcome to the eschatology forum.

Eschatology is the study of the end times. Go to Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Sure, Revelation was written to Christians of the first century.... and every century thereafter until the prophecies in Revelation are fulfilled.

 
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William Lefranc

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Like Jesus?

Mat_24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

So, what makes you think the Lord was speaking about an intergalactic time of the far future? Is that what He said to His disciples, or was He pretending when He said, "those who are in Judea must flee to the mountain?" And what about verse 34? Did He really mean the present generation, or did He have in His mind a generation of over 2,000 years later, that the disciples could not have cared less even if they knew it?

A little bit of detective work helps us to be good students of God's word which lead us to find that dispensationalists have been lying to us big time.

What do you think?
 
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ewq1938

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keras

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Please explain about the multitude standing before the throne and the Lamb. Is the throne and Lamb not in heaven?
God and His Throne are spiritual entities. He is omnipresent.
They can be seen by whoever God wills. Ezekiel 1:1 saw it while standing by the Kebar river, Stephen saw it moments before he was stoned to death, Acts 7:56
We Christians will see it as we praise the Lord for His deliverance of us, in the holy Land.
Note: try removing all preconceptions and read these verses as if you never saw them before - as if with an empty slate. They are in heaven. Period and end of story.
You have been deceived by the wolves in sheeps clothing; the false teachers of the unbiblical 'rapture' theory.
You try to remove your preconception of going to live in heaven, something that Jesus said was impossible. John 3:13, John 17:15, Proverbs 10:30
 
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William Lefranc

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Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


2Ti 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;


Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Where did you get the idea that Full-Preterism is correct?

.

Nope. I'm just a believer that loves to exegete the word of God as God gives it us instead of assuming things that we don't find it in the book of Revelation.

By the way, I would appreciate it if you don't try to label me or put me in a box as if I should belong to a certain group. No. I don't follow Preterism, I do my own biblical exegesis as the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to me. My only interest is to glorify the Lord Jesus. For me is Jesus + nothing.

Don't you think that futurists seem to have a knack for pushing all things into the future what they don't understand? Let someone else tell us what's going to happen. I simply take it in and solve the problem! Nice.

I have read the book of Revelation about 100 times and continue to do it. My desire is to find the truth which has let me believe that 90%

Isn't it convenient that you cannot prove anything that you say because it hasn't happened yet? :question::question::question:

As for Rev. 11:17, did you know that chapter and verses are not inspired but came to us about 1,100-1400 A.D?

We'll talk again. ;););)
 
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BABerean2

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Nope. I'm just a believer that loves to exegete the word of God as God gives it us instead of assuming things that we don't find it in the book of Revelation.

By the way, I would appreciate it if you don't try to label me or put me in a box as if I should belong to a certain group. No. I don't follow Preterism, I do my own biblical exegesis as the Holy Spirit reveals the truth to me. My only interest is to glorify the Lord Jesus. For me is Jesus + nothing.

Don't you think that futurists seem to have a knack for pushing all things into the future what they don't understand? Let someone else tell us what's going to happen. I simply take it in and solve the problem! Nice.

I have read the book of Revelation about 100 times and continue to do it. My desire is to find the truth which has let me believe that 90%

Isn't it convenient that you cannot prove anything that you say because it hasn't happened yet? :question::question::question:

As for Rev. 11:17, did you know that chapter and verses are not inspired but came to us about 1,100-1400 A.D?

We'll talk again. ;););)


I am not a "Futurist". It is a ditch on the other side of the road of Bible prophecy, when compared to "Full-Preterism".

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

“The Prophecy of Daniel 9” by Dr. Kelly Varner.



Christ was a "Partial-Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse, unless the 2nd Jewish temple is still standing.


Unless you have seen those who have died standing on their feet again, then Revelation chapter 11 has not yet been completed.

If you are claiming the Book of Revelation is not the inspired Word of God, you are not supposed to be commenting on this forum, since you are in violation of the forum rules.



.
 
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William Lefranc

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If you are claiming the Book of Revelation is not the inspired Word of God, you are not supposed to be commenting on this forum, since you are in violation of the forum rules.

[/QUOTE]

How did you get to the conclusion that somehow I CLAIM that the Book of Revelation is not the inspired word of God? To me is perfectly clear that the book of Revelation is God's word and was written to the first-century church, not to the 21st-century church, therefore all of Revelation was fulfilled 2,000 years ago.

All we have to do is to read this book about 100-200 times while praying for the Holy Spirit to give us insight into the book He Himself inspired.
 
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christiansoccerplayer

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God and His Throne are spiritual entities. He is omnipresent.
They can be seen by whoever God wills. Ezekiel 1:1 saw it while standing by the Kebar river, Stephen saw it moments before he was stoned to death, Acts 7:56
We Christians will see it as we praise the Lord for His deliverance, in the holy Land.[/QUOTE
I am Not convinced by this or any of your millions of other posts saying a rapture to heaven is false. I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. God will save believers by getting us out of here like he removed Noah and Lot before He brought judgement.
But I thank God that believing or not believing in a Rapture does not have any bearing on whether or not your are saved.
 
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parousia70

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LittleLambofJesus

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Can anyone even show where a future event named "The Great Tribulation" is even mentioned? Ya can't, because no such event is ever mentioned.
I can only see it as a past event on the OC 1st century Jews culminating with the destruction of the Temple and Priesthood in 70ad.........

Jesus says there would be wars and rumors of wars during their lifetime, not 2000yr later.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:6
“Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled<2360>, for is binding to becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Mark 13:7
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tidings of battles, be seeing! be not be being troubled for is binding to be becoming,
but not as yet the End<5056>
Luke 21:9
“Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

Matthew 24:19
Woe yet to those pregnant,
and to those giving suck in those the days
Mark 13:17
Woe yet to those pregnant,
and to those giving suck in those the days
Luke 21:23
Woe yet to those pregnant,
and to those giving suck in those the days
for there shall be great distress on the land and wrath on this people;

Matthew 24:21
for then shall be great tribulation, such as not has become from beginning of world<2889> till of the now,
neither not no may be becoming.
Mark 13:19
for shall be the days, those, tribulation such as not has become such from beginning of creation<2397> which God creates till of the now, and not no may be becoming
Luke 21
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress in the land and Wrath upon this people.
====================
The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The Destruction Of JERUSALEM An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY: INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ;:amen: :bow::ebil:
the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived ; the solemn warnings and admonitions which they hold out to all nations, but especially such as are favoured with the light and blessings of REVELATION ; together with the impressive and terrific grandeur of the events themselves

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism

CAST OF CHARACTERS: Roman: Emperor Nero | General Vespasian | General Titus | The Roman Army || Jewish: General / Historian Josephus | Factional Leaders in Jerusalem || Administrators of Roman Judea Targets: Jerusalem | Herod's Temple // Maps of the Roman Invasion // Theological Timeline

CHRONOLOGY IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDING THE WAR

Stage 1: Murder of James the Just, "Opposition High Priest" ; Irrevocable Split: 62
Stage 2: General Revolt in Jerusalem ; Zealot Occupation of Masada: August-September 66
Stage 3: The Campaign of Cestius Gallus and the Defeat of the Twelfth Legion: October-November 66
Stage 4: End of Collaborative Government, Priesthood ; General Flight: November 66 - March 67
Part 6: Vespasian Subdues Northern and Western Palestine: December 66 - December 68
Part 7: Three-way Power Struggle within Jerusalem After Roman Retreat: January 68 - May 70
Part 8: Romans Breach City Walls and Leave Jerusalem Desolate: May 10 - September 10, 70
===============================
This person made a fantastic video and uses Josephus's account of the 7yr Jewish Rebellion against Rome..........

 
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ewq1938

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I am Not convinced by this or any of your millions of other posts saying a rapture to heaven is false. I believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture. God will save believers by getting us out of here like he removed Noah and Lot before He brought judgement.

God's judgment comes after the trib has ended. That's when God raptures his church. Both Lot and Noah lived in the world alongside the wicked people and had to live through that until it was time for God's judgment.

Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


Judgment and wrath of God comes after Babylon has fallen and Babylon does not fall until after the trib has ended. Those that took the mark of the beast will suffer God's wrath meaning they took the mark in the trib before God's wrath was to come. All these things show that judgment and wrath from God come after the trib not during it.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I am not a "Futurist". It is a ditch on the other side of the road of Bible prophecy, when compared to "Full-Preterism".

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.
Christ was a "Partial-Preterist" in the Olivet Discourse, unless the 2nd Jewish temple is still standing.

Unless you have seen those who have died standing on their feet again, then Revelation chapter 11 has not yet been completed.

If you are claiming the Book of Revelation is not the inspired Word of God, you are not supposed to be commenting on this forum, since you are in violation of the forum rules.

.
How did you get to the conclusion that somehow I CLAIM that the Book of Revelation is not the inspired word of God? To me is perfectly clear that the book of Revelation is God's word and was written to the first-century church, not to the 21st-century church, therefore all of Revelation was fulfilled 2,000 years ago.
All we have to do is to read this book about 100-200 times while praying for the Holy Spirit to give us insight into the book He Himself inspired.
Hello and welcome to the "Dog Pound" of GT.

How do you view the great City in Revelation 18?
I can view Armageddon as being fulfilled in the 1st century Israel, Judea/Jerusalem, but it is that Gog Magog event that is throwing me off.
When I translated both of those events, it is almost like they are the same event.


Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going-out upon the kings of the whole being-homed<3625>,
to-be-together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Great Battle of the Day of God the Almighty.
16 And they together-leading/mobilize/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn<717>

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105> the nations, the ones in the Four Corners of the land, the Gog/gwg <1136> and Magog/magwg <3098>,
to be together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle, of which the Number of them as the Sand<285> of the Se<2281>a.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]
===================
Please visit my harmonization of the 1st century/70ad Olive Discourse........

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
 
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BABerean2

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I can view Armageddon as being fulfilled in the 1st century Israel, Judea/Jerusalem, but it is that Gog Magog event that is throwing me off.
When I translated both of those events, it is almost like they are the same event.


Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

Revelation 16:
14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which are going-out upon the kings of the whole being-homed<3625>,
to-be-together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Great Battle of the Day of God the Almighty.
16 And they together-leading/mobilize/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn<717>

Revelation 20:8
and he shall be coming out<1831> to deceive<4105> the nations, the ones in the Four Corners of the land, the Gog/gwg <1136> and Magog/magwg <3098>,
to be together-leading/mobilizing/sunagagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle, of which the Number of them as the Sand<285> of the Se<2281>a.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]
===================


They are the same event, which occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.

Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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They are the same event, which occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.

Gog of Magog - Here a little, there a little - Prophecy
.
If that is true, and 1st century Jerusalem is symbolizing that great City in Revelation 18,
what would that mean?
This should interest Preterists...........

Armageddon: Past of Future?

By John Noē


John Noe Study Archive | The Only Defense in the Major Case Against Christ, Christianity, and the Bible. | Armageddon: Past or Future? | Restoring the Kingdom-of-God Worldview to the Church and the World | 12 Most Common Mistakes People Make About Bible Prophecy and the Endtimes | 7 Demanding Evidences Why Christ Returned As and When He Said He Would | What About Paul's Man of Sin? | Are the End Times Behind Us? | The Millennial Book Awards

Are Millions Being Misled, Again?

Armageddon is coming April 8th! According to proponents, that’s the publicized date when it will be “unleashing everywhere” and “no one will escape!” The only question now being asked by a multi-media promotional campaign is, “Are you prepared for Armageddon?”

Fortunately, this alarming announcement is not about a future USA vs. Iraqi conflict or for the real so-called final “battle of Armageddon” at the supposed end of the world. I am speaking of Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins’ tenth and latest blockbuster title in their wildly popular Left Behind series. It is provocatively titled Armageddon.

Even though this is another work of fiction, LaHaye contends that his works of fiction are conduits of “God’s end-times truths.” There is no question that he is seriously committed to equipping “Christians with the prophetic knowledge that God expects His children to have.”1 The Left Behind series has proven to be the best vehicle to achieve his goal. Its 50,000,000 books sold-to-date are designed to reach people in a way his “non-fiction” books can not. And, they are doing just that—literally influencing and convincing multiple millions toward his view.

Unfortunately, his books are based upon an eschatological view that is not held by many Christians, and for good reasons. A case in point is this latest book. Below are ten biblical reasons why the theology behind Armageddon’s story line is biblically flawed.

1. The name of the battle is NOT “Armageddon” or “the battle of Armageddon.” It’s “the battle on the great day of God Almighty” (Rev. 16:14). Armageddon is the location of this battle. Big difference!

2. The location is NOT in Israel’s largest valley, 50 miles north of Jerusalem, as is commonly thought. Yet this 20-mile long and 14-mile wide valley (presently known as the Valley of Jezreel or the Plain of Megiddo) remains one of the popular stops on most tours of Israel. According to Scripture, the location of this battle “in Hebrew is called Har-Magedon/Megiddo” (Rev. 16:16). But “har” is the Hebrew word for mountain. A mountain is the exact opposite in meaning from a valley.2Since in Hebrew the ‘h’ is silent, the Greek rending became “Armageddon.”

3. This battle is part of the whole prophecy of the book of Revelation. According to Revelation itself, its whole prophecy were things that “would shortly take place” (Rev. 1:1; 22:6), were “at hand” (Rev. 1:3; 22:10), and were obeyable, heedable, keepable (Rev. 1:3; 22:7) in the lives of this book’s original recipients in that 1st Century time frame.

4. Likewise, the whole of this prophecy was not to be sealed up (Rev. 22:10). But LaHaye and Jenkins have, in essence, sealed it up for over nineteen centuries and counting via their postponement interpretation. Now, however, they want to unseal it by claiming that these events will finally and soon occur in our day and time.

5. A strong case can be made that the book of Revelation was written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70.3

6. Har-Magedon/Megiddo, where this great end-time battle takes place, is a composite name and, most likely, symbolic. It is contained in a book filled with signs and symbols. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to conclude that it, too, is symbolic of a real battle. BAGD rightly recognizes that “Armageddon is a mystic place-name” and “has been identified with Megiddo and Jerusalem.” Yet they lament that “its interpretation is beset with difficulties that have not yet been surmounted.” 4 Or, have they? Read on.

7. The most likely case is that Revelation’s “Har” is Jerusalem. Geographically, Jerusalem sits on top of a mountain. To get there from any direction one must go “up to Jerusalem” (2 Sam. 19:34; 1 Ki. 12:28; 2 Ki. 18:17; 2 Chron. 2:16; Ezra 1:3; 7:7; Zech. 14:17; Matt. 20:17, 18; Mark 10:32, 33; Luke 18:31; 19:28; John 2:13; 5:1; Acts 11:2; 15:2; 21:12, 15; 24:11; 25:9; Gal. 1:17, 18). Jerusalem is also called God’s “holy mountain” (Psa. 43:3) and the “chief among the mountains” (Isa. 2:2-3; also 14:13; Exod. 15:17; Joel 2:32; 3:16-17).

8. Based on other Scriptures, one can also make a case for “Magedon/Megiddo” pointing to Jerusalem. During the time of Jesus and Revelation’s subsequent writing, large crowds of devout Jews would gather three times a year to celebrate their religious feasts in this central city. Other related Hebrew terms support this identification:
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Some Fundamentalists Ache for Armageddon

The discussion in this book of the alliance between Christian and Jewish fundamentalists – whose theological differences have been shelved for the political goal of strengthening Israel – is instructive, Jews in Israel and the U.S., it seems, do not realize that the Christian fundamentalists urge such a policy because they believe it will usher in the Battle of Armageddon and the end of the world – not because they are concerned with Israel’s long-run security.
 
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BABerean2

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If that is true, and 1st century Jerusalem is symbolizing that great City in Revelation 18,
what would that mean?
This should interest Preterists...........

It means you have veered off the road of Bible prophecy and into the ditch, because everything is not about 70 AD...

.
 
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