Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

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Dr. Jack

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In all honesty I know that many in the Reformed camp use the word decree rather than ordain. That is because they neither understand the teaching of the Scriptures or the difference in the words.
"I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold,96 direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,97 from the greatest even to the least,98 by His most wise and holy providence,99 according to His infallible foreknowledge,100 and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,101 to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.102 II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;103 yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.104
III. God, in His ordinary providence, makes use of means,105 yet is free to work without,106 above,107 and against them,108 at His pleasure. IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;109 and that not by a bare permission,110 but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,111 and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends;112 yet so, as the sinfulness thereof proceeds only from the creature, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.113 V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God does oftentimes leave, for a season, His own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;114 and, to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon Himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.115 VI. As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as a righteous Judge, for former sins, does blind and harden,116 from them He not only withholds His grace whereby they might have been enlightened in their understandings, and wrought upon in their hearts;117 but sometimes also withdraws the gifts which they had,118 and exposes them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin;119 and, withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan,120 whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, even under those means which God uses for the softening of others.121"
Notice: "II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God"
"IV. The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God so far manifest themselves in His providence, that it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;109 and that not by a bare permission,110 but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,111 and otherwise ordering, and governing of them, in a manifold dispensation, to His own holy ends"

The decree of God not only brought about the first sin, but, "it extends itself even to the first fall, and all other sins of angels and men;109 and that not by a bare permission,110 but such as has joined with it a most wise and powerful bounding,111 and otherwise ordering, and governing of them".

You need to read this for yourself ...
 
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BABerean2

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Care to give me some Spurgeon quotes?


Baptist History | The Reformed Reader


"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men.

—Charles H. Spurgeon"

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Dr. Jack

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Show me where the word predestine or predestination is in that article of the Westminster.
What I am about to do is expound upon words of the WCF. This is what is written ... not what I believe.

The word "decree" means 'to order' (as in command); while the word "ordain" means 'to appoint'.

Let's consider ...

"God"
The sovereign God

"from all eternity",
Prior to the creation

"did,"
God did this

"by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will,"
according to what He wanted to do

"freely, and"
no one influenced Him

"unchangeable ordain"
Everything that God said could NOT be done in any other way ... Or it would have been changed!

"whatsoever"
Not WHOSOEVER, but whatsoever ... whosoever denotes people, whatsoever denotes events

"comes to pass"
Every event in time, has been appointed to occur according to the appointment of God.

God appointed Adam to fall in the Garden of Eden, it could not have happened any other way.
 
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twin1954

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Baptist History | The Reformed Reader


"We believe that the Baptists are the original Christians. We did not commence our existence at the reformation, we were reformers before Luther and Calvin were born; we never came from the Church of Rome, for we were never in it, but we have an unbroken line up to the apostles themselves. We have always existed from the days of Christ, and our principles, sometimes veiled and forgotten, like a river which may travel under ground for a little season, have always had honest and holy adherents. Persecuted alike by Romanists and Protestants of almost every sect, yet there has never existed a Government holding Baptist principles which persecuted others; nor, I believe, any body of Baptists ever held it to be right to put the consciences of others under the control of man. We have ever been ready to suffer, as our martyrologies will prove, but we are not ready to accept any help from the State, to prostitute the purity of the Bride of Christ to any alliance with Government, and we will never make the Church, although the Queen, the despot over the consciences of men.

—Charles H. Spurgeon"

.
That doesn't mean that Spurgeon believed in the trail of blood since it wasn't written during his lifetime. What it means is that Spurgeon held to the same view as I do.
 
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QvQ

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This quote/section in the WCF addresses the nature of the Redeemed who know God and whom God can counsel. That is Adam and it is the Christian. This section does not pertain to the "unregenerate." It is possible for God's children to stray from the path of righteousness. I have mentioned the "prosperity gospel" as being a "God loves me, He leads me in the path of riches." For them, it is a moot point whether it is ordained or decreed. It is straying.
 
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BABerean2

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That doesn't mean that Spurgeon believed in the trail of blood since it wasn't written during his lifetime. What it means is that Spurgeon held to the same view as I do.

I have read what Spurgeon said, and also what is found in "The Trail of Blood".

Why are you saying they are not in agreement, since they are presenting the same viewpoint of Baptist history?


.
 
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Dr. Jack

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That doesn't mean that Spurgeon believed in the trail of blood since it wasn't written during his lifetime. What it means is that Spurgeon held to the same view as I do.
What "nature" do you believe Adam had prior to the fall?
 
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twin1954

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What I am about to do is expound upon words of the WCF. This is what is written ... not what I believe.

The word "decree" means 'to order' (as in command); while the word "ordain" means 'to appoint'.

Let's consider ...

"God"
The sovereign God

"from all eternity",
Prior to the creation

"did,"
God did this

"by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will,"
according to what He wanted to do

"freely, and"
no one influenced Him

"unchangeable ordain"
Everything that God said could NOT be done in any other way ... Or it would have been changed!

"whatsoever"
Not WHOSOEVER, but whatsoever ... whosoever denotes people, whatsoever denotes events

"comes to pass"
Every event in time, has been appointed to occur according to the appointment of God.

God appointed Adam to fall in the Garden of Eden, it could not have happened any other way.
First of all I do not hold to the Westminster and neither do a multitude of Calvinists. I have read it as well as the 1689 London Baptist confession. It has been a while though. Your insistence that all Calvinists believe what the Westminster teaches is a false assertion lumping all into one basket so that you can tear down the basket. You are debating with me, a Baptist, not with a member of the Presbyterian church. Since I do not adhere to the Westminster I have no obligation to defend it.

But I will defend the truths that I find in it. Honestly, you have never answered many of the things that I have written. I really don't want to argue the Westminster. I am happy to let it lie because it means nothing to me. What I will defend are the truths that are in the Scriptures. Since this is a theology section of the boards lets confine ourselves to what the Scriptures say not an old document written by men.

As to your last statement I would fully agree. It has been appointed by God.

(Rom 11:34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
(Rom 11:35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
(Rom 11:36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

1Co_8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 
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twin1954

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I have read what Spurgeon said, and also what is found in "The Trail of Blood".

Why are you saying they are not in agreement, since they are presenting the same viewpoint of Baptist history?


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Because they are not. The trail of blood teaches that there is a direct line from the Apostles to certain men today. It is intended to trace their baptism back to the Apostles and deny the universal church. It is confined to the Landmark Baptists for the most part. I know because I went to their school.
 
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twin1954

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What "nature" do you believe Adam had prior to the fall?
A moral nature. He experienced communion with God before the Fall. He Was given dominion over creation before the Fall. He dressed and kept the Garden before the Fall. We do not know how long after creation the Fall occurred so we don't have any idea of what he had or how long he had it. What we do know is that he willfully lost it all.

When he lost it he tried to blame the woman and God, that woman you gave me.

Adam was created with a moral nature in the image of God. That is what separated him from all of the beasts and birds and fishes. He was created knowing what was right and doing it. I do not believe in the probation theory or even the innocence idea. Innocence carries the idea of not knowing anything. Adam wasn't innocent he was moral. He knew and experienced much more than we ever could now. And in the face of all that he still willfully sinned.
 
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BABerean2

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Because they are not. The trail of blood teaches that there is a direct line from the Apostles to certain men today. It is intended to trace their baptism back to the Apostles and deny the universal church. It is confined to the Landmark Baptists for the most part. I know because I went to their school.

Can you tell us which pages contains a reference to Apostolic succession?

I have several copies of the book in my library.


.
 
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twin1954

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Can you tell us which pages contains a reference to Apostolic succession?

I have several copies of the book in my library.


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I have a copy of it as well. It was required reading at the school. But since that was 26 years ago and since I moved and don't have room to unpack all of my books I can't give you passages. Yes I could probably find it on the Internet but I am not going to waste my time looking. Are you a Landmark Baptist? If you are I will tell you that I have spent far too many hours debating Landmarkers in my time at their school. I don't intend to waste any more of it.
 
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BABerean2

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I have a copy of it as well. It was required reading at the school. But since that was 26 years ago and since I moved and don't have room to unpack all of my books I can't give you passages. Yes I could probably find it on the Internet but I am not going to waste my time looking. Are you a Landmark Baptist? If you are I will tell you that I have spent far too many hours debating Landmarkers in my time at their school. I don't intend to waste any more of it.

I am not a Landmark Baptist.

I really do not claim to be a "Baptist", even though I understand that believers baptism is what was practiced in the first century Church. I was baptized in water after coming to faith in Christ, as an adult.


The most important thing about the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water, based on Luke 3:16, and Acts of the Apostles 11:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27.


I am a member of the New Covenant Church predicted in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24.


You asked me to supply a quote from Spurgeon to back up what I said, and I did.

You are not willing to do what you asked me to do, in order to back up your claim.

If you want to claim to be a "Baptist" who then promotes Augustine's viewpoint of election, which was invented to justify the baptism of infants, go ahead.


.
 
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QvQ

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"I. God the great Creator of all things does uphold,96 direct, dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things,97 from the greatest even to the least,98 by His most wise and holy providence,99 according to His infallible foreknowledge,100 and the free and immutable counsel of His own will,101 to the praise of the glory of His wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy.102 II. Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly;103 yet, by the same providence, He orders them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.104

Now I have read that Westminster Confessional several times and I am starting to agree with it. The determinism and God withdrawing is a new idea to me However
At a higher level God is Force or a Power, like Gravity, that holds things together. At that level, He does have absolute sovereignty. He has Decree and Ordain. Nothing, sinner or saint, could occur outside His Will. To resent that or to argue against Him is to argue with a sovereign power.Gravity can be withdrawn at God's good pleasure as in space. Gravity cannot be denied, neither can God. Those powers bind and limit every man.
On a personal level, I contend that man has limited "free will" but to accomplish God's design on that large scale, requires that God has either a shared will or had granted a limited free will to man. The order of the higher scale would have to be maintained which means that the disorder of unlimited free will on the lower scale would not be conducive to order on the higher. I know I will be "poofed" for this view but that WC seems to be a view from "on high." IT is the only sense I can make of it and I can see the point. I can even agree with it.
 
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BABerean2

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Now I have read that Westminster Confessional several times and I am starting to agree with it.

The Westminster Confession of Faith was written by men.

It claim the ten commandments were given to Adam in the garden, even though Adam could not have committed adultery, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3 says otherwise.

It also claims we are under the 4th commandment, no matter what Paul said in Colossians 2:16-17.




The New Covenant: Bob George


.
 
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twin1954

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I am not a Landmark Baptist.

I really do not claim to be a "Baptist", even though I understand that believers baptism is what was practiced in the first century Church. I was baptized in water after coming to faith in Christ, as an adult.


The most important thing about the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water, based on Luke 3:16, and Acts of the Apostles 11:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27.


I am a member of the New Covenant Church predicted in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24.


You asked me to supply a quote from Spurgeon to back up what I said, and I did.

You are not willing to do what you asked me to do, in order to back up your claim.

If you want to claim to be a "Baptist" who then promotes Augustine's viewpoint of election, which was invented to justify the baptism of infants, go ahead.


.
http://mbcmckinney.com/data/trail_of_blood_timeline.pdf

You can see at the bottom the straight line of red dots which they use to prove that their line of Baptists, but not all Baptists, comes straight from the church that they believe started when Christ Jesus called the Apostles. That is how they supposedly trace their baptism from the Apostles. It is utter nonsense.

By contrast the spiritual kinship view that I and Spurgeon hold does no such thing. We identify with those people in the past that held to what are now called Baptist tenets but we do not attempt to draw a straight line through them. We identify with through spiritual kinship not as Baptist churches throughout the millinileums.

As I said before, I was among Landmark Baptists at their school and I do know what they believe and why. I was taught it though I never agreed with it.

Landmark Baptists do not believe in a universal church. They think that there is only the local church. They believe that they can trace their authority to baptize through the "Trail of Blood".

If you are interested in learning about what they believe find the systematic theology written by T. P. Simmons.
 
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twin1954

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The Westminster Confession of Faith was written by men.

It claim the ten commandments were given to Adam in the garden, even though Adam could not have committed adultery, and Deuteronomy 5:1-3 says otherwise.

It also claims we are under the 4th commandment, no matter what Paul said in Colossians 2:16-17.




The New Covenant: Bob George


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Once more condemning the whole for a few errors. That is neither honest nor truthful.
 
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twin1954

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I am not a Landmark Baptist.

I really do not claim to be a "Baptist", even though I understand that believers baptism is what was practiced in the first century Church. I was baptized in water after coming to faith in Christ, as an adult.


The most important thing about the word "baptism" in the New Testament has nothing to do with water, based on Luke 3:16, and Acts of the Apostles 11:15-17, and 1 Corinthians 3:16, and Ephesians 1:13, and 1 John 2:27.


I am a member of the New Covenant Church predicted in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and found fulfilled in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24.


You asked me to supply a quote from Spurgeon to back up what I said, and I did.

You are not willing to do what you asked me to do, in order to back up your claim.

If you want to claim to be a "Baptist" who then promotes Augustine's viewpoint of election, which was invented to justify the baptism of infants, go ahead.


.
You continue to make a claim that is simply not true and which I have refuted repeatedly.

Continuing with this is derailing the purpose of the thread. Drop it.
 
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twin1954

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Now I have read that Westminster Confessional several times and I am starting to agree with it. The determinism and God withdrawing is a new idea to me However
At a higher level God is Force or a Power, like Gravity, that holds things together. At that level, He does have absolute sovereignty. He has Decree and Ordain. Nothing, sinner or saint, could occur outside His Will. To resent that or to argue against Him is to argue with a sovereign power.Gravity can be withdrawn at God's good pleasure as in space. Gravity cannot be denied, neither can God. Those powers bind and limit every man.
On a personal level, I contend that man has limited "free will" but to accomplish God's design on that large scale, requires that God has either a shared will or had granted a limited free will to man. The order of the higher scale would have to be maintained which means that the disorder of unlimited free will on the lower scale would not be conducive to order on the higher. I know I will be "poofed" for this view but that WC seems to be a view from "on high." IT is the only sense I can make of it and I can see the point. I can even agree with it.
If you want to learn more of these things pm me. I will be glad to help you grasp the fullness of these things.

I would like for you to read the 1689 London Baptist confession as well. I wil introduce you to covenant theology which will make sense of the whole of Scriptures.
 
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BABerean2

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Once more condemning the whole for a few errors. That is neither honest nor truthful.

How many errors can your Bible doctrine be based upon, and it still be "honest", or "truthful"?


What is New Covenant Theology?

Pastor Douglas Goodin

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