Partial Preterist Only A parousia and judgement on 70ad Jerusalem Revelation 18-19

A member brought up this question to me on another thread asking for a yes or no answer.

JLB777 said:

I don’t know what Zionist futurism is.
Please consider studying God’s word rather than the doctrines of man.
Please just answer my question with yes or no.
Do you believe the coming of the Lord and the end of the age occurred in 70 AD?
JLB

Click to expand...

I would like to hear from other Partial Preterist how they would answer the question and explain their answer.
I will answer "yes", which according to orthodox theology, that view is allowed concerning the End of the OC Jewish Age and Temple/Priesthood System.

Before we begin, here is how CF defines Partial Preterism and it is considered an orthodox view within mainstream Christianity, and rightfully so.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Partial Preterism:Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as
the destruction of Jerusalem,
the Antichrists,
the Great Tribulation,
and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ,
were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
==============================

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
======================================
Let's look at some verses in Matthew 23:

Matthew 23 YLT
YLT)
1Then Jesus spake to the multitudes, and to his disciples, 2saying, ‘On the seat of Moses sat down the scribes and the Pharisees;
31So that ye testify to yourselves, that ye are sons of them who did murder the prophets; 32and ye — ye fill up the measure of your fathers.
33‘Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
34‘Because of this, lo, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, and of them ye will kill and crucify, and of them ye will scourge in your synagogues, and will pursue from city to city;
35that on you may come all the righteous blood being poured out on the earth from the blood of Abel the righteous, unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar:
36verily I say to you, all these things shall come upon this generation.
37‘Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that art killing the prophets, and stoning those sent unto thee, how often did I will to gather thy children together, as a hen doth gather her own chickens under the wings, and ye did not will.
38Lo, left desolate to you is your house; 39for I say to you, ye may not see me henceforth, till ye may say, Blessed [is] he who is coming in the name of the Lord.’

Then comes the next chapter on the 70ad Olivet Discourse.

Matthew 24:
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us! when shall these be being?
and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end<4930> of the Age?

To be continued.....................

Jerusalem 70ad:

Revelation 18:
8 Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned<2618>, that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her./
10 From afar<3113> having stood because of the fear of the tormenting<929> of Her saying
"Woe! woe! the great City Babylon! the strong City! That to one hour came the judging of Thee.
20 ‘Be making merry<2165> over Her, O heaven, and the Saints, the Apostles and the Prophets,
that the GOD judges the judgment of ye out of Her!’
24 And in Her blood of Prophets and of Saints was found,
and of all those having been slain/slaughtered<4969> on the earth.’

Revelation 19:
1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God;
2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".
3 And a second time they have declared<4483> "HalleluYah! and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages of the ages!"

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterism

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
=====================================
Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Partial Preterism:
Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as:
the destruction of Jerusalem,
the Antichrists,
the Great Tribulation,
and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ,
were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
=================================

BABerean2 said:

If Christ returned in your version of the "parousia" during 70 AD, then the future return of Christ would be His Third Coming, instead of His Second Coming.
.

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Hello BAB.
It is not "my version", but the version that was stated on that site concerning Partial Preterism.

Let's look at some of the Partial Preterist comments concerning the O D and 70ad.

Alphabetical order.....1st Partial Preterist commentary on Matthew 24::

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com

Brian Abshire

• 
  The Meaning and Significance of the Term "The Last Days" "There were some last days before King Jesus came and exercised His royal judgment over Jerusalem. There is a last day wherein King Jesus will come and exercise His royal judgment over all men, living and dead."

The debate between the various eschatological views extends all the way back to the first century heretic Cerenthius' combination of Ebionite theology, Gnostic speculation and sensual chilianism. Since that time, though certain positions have been recognised as heresy (and hence vigorously condemned), from Augustine's germinal Amillennialism, through Puritan Postmillennialism to even Darby's Dispensational Premillennialism, the historic church has not made eschatology itself a test of orthodoxy. Sincere men coming to the same passages have arrived at different conclusions. Christianity has thus made room for a variety of views.

In different ages, some views have often enjoyed more popularity than others. But the issue must never be "which view has the most proponents" but rather, "which view best interprets the Scriptural data in a proper manner".

Various Views Rejected

The key passage in determining the meaning of the "Last Days" is Matthew 24, the Olivet Discourse. While other passages hint, suggest and offer tantalizing glimpses, Matthew 24 lays out a specific prophetic agenda. But just what is the content of the Olivet prophecies?

There are four major approaches;
(1) Matthew 24 speaks to the events leading up to a future Great Tribulation which will occur shortly before the Second Coming of Christ,
(2) Matthew 24 refers both to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Second Coming of Christ through the medium of "prophetic perspective" or "dual referent",
(3) Matthew 24 speaks specifically of the Second Coming which actually occurred in 70AD (Groh vii) and
(4) Matthew 24 speaks primarily to the destruction of Israel in 70AD and does not address the Second Coming of Christ at all (at least until verse 36 which may mark a transition from the destruction of Jerusalem to the Lord's Return)........................

Conclusion

If the above reasoning is correct, then this will have profound effect on our concept of Christianity and its relation to contemporary culture. Rather than defeatism being the characteristic of this age, we ought to expect to see the Lord Jesus lead His church to victory. The mindset that says that Christian progress in the world will be ultimately undermined by an end times apostasy is no longer valid. Yes, apostasy and heresy come, but Christ is greater than either and has already defeated and disarmed their ruler (Col 2:15).
Christians ought to expect the gospel to go forth with power, to meet the devils of this age and scatter them to the pit. There is nothing that stands between the Christian church and the expectation of victorious fulfilment of the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-21 than our own obedience.
===================

• Why I Believe We Are Not Living in “The Last Days”

Brian Abshire

What Does Matthew Really Mean?

Matthew 24 is one of the best known prophetic passages in the New Testament. But just what exactly is Jesus prophesying here? Many assume it is His second coming. But is this necessarily so? The greater context is clearly the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. In Matthew 23:29 Jesus pronounces judgment on the Pharisees with the time table set in verse 36. He then weeps for the coming desolation of Jerusalem in verses 37-39. In 24:1-3
The disciples marvel at the beauty of the temple. Jesus then predicts that the temple, and the city will be destroyed. the disciples then ask “when will this happen?” Everything from that point on is Jesus answer to their question.

The only real reason why this passage is assumed to refer to the Second Coming, and not the events of 70 AD seems to be the prophetic imagery in 27-31. Since these events “obviously” did not happen in 70 AD, the entire passage must therefore be manipulated to make the Second Coming fit into the schema of events that Jesus details. Some even go so far as to require a new temple, new sacrifices, new abomination of desolation, etc., in order to replay 70 AD all over again.

While other views do not have to go quite so far, even so, their interpretations sometime stretch one’s credulity. It is a difficult passage to interpret.

Yet Jesus Himself gives a temporal marker in verse 34. Jesus specifically says that all these things will happen during the lifetime of “this generation.” Again, all sorts of exegetical and hermeneutical gymnastics are attempted in order to get around the clear implications of this passage (i.e., generation really means “race”, the generation that sees the “fig tree,” etc.).
But the text seems clear, whatever is happening in Matthew 24 is supposed to happen completely and fully within the lifetime of the people Jesus is addressing. This is the normal sense of the terms. However if Matthew 24 was supposed to be fulfilled during the lifetimes of the disciples, and if it does refer to the Second Coming, then Jesus made a mistake.
Obviously this cannot be accepted by evangelicals. Thus another solution must be found.................

Conclusion

If the above understanding of the “last days” is correct, then it has profound effects on our concept of Christianity and its relationship to the world around us. Rather than defeat, we ought to expect to see the Lord Jesus lead His church to victory.
The assumption that Christian progress in the world will be ultimately undermined by an end times apostasy is no longer valid. Yes, apostasy and heresy come, but Christ is greater than either and has already defeated and disarmed their ruler (Col 2:15).
Christians ought to expect the gospel to go forth with power, to meet the devils of this age and scatter them to the pit. There is nothing that stands between the Christian church and the victorious fulfillment of the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-21 than our own obedience.

Some may complain that this sounds like Postmillennialism. Though that discussion is beyond the scope of this paper it must be answered, if this is what the Bible teaches, so what?
Though now largely out of favor in American evangelicalism, it ought to remembered that Postmillennialism is the historic eschatological system of American Presbyterian and English Reformed groups. The Westminster Confession is unabashedly postmillennial in the Longer Catechism.................
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Comments on it:

Date: 14 Nov 2005
Time: 05:58:18

Comments:

The article is as clear and concise as it could possibly be. It seem to be the only way to harmpnoze the various Scriptures on the subject. I agree with it. Its always wise to define ones terms at the beginning of his discsourse, but to translate a biblical word differently from what scholars have translated it and differently from the general understanding of it in preeparation for one's forthcoming argument, gives me pause. Translators are often influenced by their traditional ubderstanding of words, but if we have a good translation, such as the NASV, it disturbs me to see an individual or the supporters of a particular theological position RETRANSLATE words in support their upcoming arguments seems to base their whole argument on a different translation of a word. This we haven't allowed others to do.

Lacy

Please visit my 70AD Olivet Discourse harmonized thread:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

I put a link to each verses of Matthew 24 below, in case some one to look up individual verses.
I include the verses of Mark 13 and Luke 21 if they are there.
Any input from other members is welcome.
============================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:1 Temple, Buildings
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:2 "stone upon stone
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:3 When shall these be?and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952> and full-end of the Age?
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:4-5 For many shall be coming upon My name, saying,‘I AM the Christ....
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:6 Wars rumors of Wars
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:7-8 , nation, kingdom against nation, kingdom; quaking, famines
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread
Matthew 24:9 " they shall be delivering ye up in to tribulation and shall be killing ye, hated by all"
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:10 Deliver up one another---brother to death
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:11, 12 False prophets.....multiplied lawlessness...love grows cold
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:13 One enduring to end shall be saved
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:14 Gospel preached, testimony to all nations----then the end
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:15 Abomination desolation....desolating of Jerusalem.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:16 those in Judea flee
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:17, 18 Those on Housetop---in the field
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:19 "woe to those pregnant and nursing in those days"
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:20 pray flight not in winter or sabbath
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:21 great tribulation, great distress, and wrath
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:22 Days shortened for sake of elect
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 23:23-25 False christs and prophets--deceive the elect if possible
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:26 He is in the desert, in the storerooms.
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:27 Lightening flashes from east, so shall parousia of the Son of Man
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:28 Where the eagles/vultures, there the corpse/carcass/body be
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:29 Signs in sun, moon, stars, powers of heavens shaken
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:30 Son of Man coming upon cloud/s of heaven with power and much glory
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:31 Gather elect in trumpet sound from 4 winds of heaven/s
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:32 Fig tree ripe, summer is nigh
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:33 Nigh is upon doors, Kingdom of God
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:34 Not shall be passing this generation till all fulfilled
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth pass away, but not My words
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:36 Concerning day and hour, no one knows except Father
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:37-39 As in Days of Noah, thus also shall be Son of man
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:40-42 2 will be in the field, two will be grinding----1 taken, 1 left
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
Matt 24:43-44 Homeowner be wathchful, not knowing which hour Son of Man coming

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
Partial Preterism:
Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as
the destruction of Jerusalem,
the Antichrists,
the Great Tribulation,
and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ,
were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
=============================
Partial Preterism PAROUSIA

70ad:
A coming (parousia) of Christ
A day of the Lord
A judgment
The end of the Jewish Age
(Source: R.C. Sproul, Last Days)

Still future:
The Coming (parousia) of Christ
The Day of the Lord
The Resurrection of the dead
The Rapture of the living
The (final) Judgment
The end of history
===========================

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com,

Commentary #2
Dispensationist Futurism vs Preterism.....

Moses or Christ ?
Paul's Reply To Dispensational Error

Charles Alexander

• Moses or Christ? Paul's Reply to Dispensationalist Error "We ask our dispensational friends to consider what their position will be if the present Jewish occupation ends in disaster. While they are forming their reply, we would point out to readers that so far from converting Israel and establishing them in the land, the second coming of Christ will overtake them (and all the world) "as a thief in the night," in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (2 Peter 3: 1 0)."

He who would understand the prophets had better begin with Paul's Epistle to the Galatians, where he will find that the Church is one in the Old Testament and New, and the New Testament Church is the fulfillment of all prophecy, the very last phase of God's redemptive work on earth.

He will discover in Galatians who the true Israel is, to whom the promises are made and that there is no other Israel, and no further fulfillment of prophecy.

The problem of the Galatian believers was the conspiracy to impose upon them Jewish interpretations of prophecy, and to claim over them a Jewish priority or privilege. Paul repulses this conspiracy with unparalleled severity.

On this question it was "Paul contra mundum" (Paul against the world) as later it was to be, on another vital question, "Athanasius contra mundum." Even Peter came under his lash- "I withstood him to the face because he was to be blamed" (Gal. 2:1 1). Great men were temporarily swept away by the Jewish pretensions to perpetual privilege and priority-- "Even Bamabas was carried away with their dissimulation" (Gal. 2:13).

Here Paul placed his foot, the last man on earth to stand between Judaistic heresy and the safety of the church: "To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you" (Gal. 2:5).

In our day the same Jewish heresies have well-nigh crushed the theology of the evangelical churches and destroyed effective preaching of the Word. The error has taken different forms in our time, but springs from the same Judaistic root whose fundamental ground is that Jewish privilege and priority are perpetual and that the New Testament Church at best is only a makeshift arrangement of providence to tide over the time until the resources of a baffled and well-nigh impotent Godhead are assembled in sufficient force to compel at last a Jewish solution of the problem of redemption.............................

The dispensational theory today is jubilantly hailing the prospect of an early fulfillment of Jewish expectation of an earthly kingdom of Messiah. The theorists exceed the rabbis in this enthusiasm, though it is from rabbinical sources that their theory has been contrived. They actually tell the Jews that their present occupation of Palestine, in a state of bitter hostility to Christ and the Christian gospel, is the fulfillment of prophecy and that their ungodly zeal against Christ and truth will be rewarded shortly by God with an instant faith and that this extraordinary act of God will be a fulfilling of the promises made to Abraham.

But Paul in Galatians has already told us who Abraham's seed are, to whom these promises are made, and he mentions not a word about restoration to Palestine, but builds it all on the nature of the Church. He maintains, as we have shown, that the Church is the lawful continuation of Old Testament Israel and the inheritor of the Abrahamic covenant and promises.

We ask our dispensational friends to consider what their position will be if the present Jewish occupation ends in disaster. While they are forming their reply, we would point out to readers that so far from converting Israel and establishing them in the land, the second coming of Christ will overtake them (and all the world) "as a thief in the night," in the which the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up (2 Peter 3: 1 0).

Peter knows of no other "second coming" save that which abolishes the heavens and the earth in one stupendous conflagration. Where then is the earthly kingdom which Christ is to bring to the Jew, and where is the "kingdom" of the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Adventists and the Armstrongites? We fear for the company which our dispensationalists keep and earnestly entreat them to consider Paul's interpretation of who Israel is, what are "the two covenants" and what is the nature of "the promise" made to Abraham?

Our last word is that of Paul, significantly found in the conclusion of that epistle specifically written to deliver the Church from Jewish error and Jewish pride:

"God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:14-16).
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Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking. So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.

No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…

BABerean2 said:

Based on the above, the 70 AD "parousia" would be the Second Coming, and the future "parousia" of Christ would be the Third Coming.
.

Click to expand...

Perhaps Gog-Magog is "the final Parousia"?
Most partial Preterists still view that as future along with the final WTJ that occurs after that event.........
Not sure how partial preterism views that event...............

2 "Parousias" according to Partial Preterism......

Identifying Gog and Magog Preterist Archive

Identifying Gog and Magog
The Great Battle of the End Times

By Kurt M. Simmons

Introduction

Revelation twenty is among the most difficult passages in the Bible. Whole interpretative schools have grown up with names describing their particular approach to the chapter. Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmillennialism describe these schools’ particular interpretation of Revelation’s millennia.
Although disagreement exists concerning the nature and timing of the millennia, all agree that the battle of Gog and Magog immediately precedes Christ’s eschatological coming in judgment upon world.
If Preterists are to succeed in convincing others that Revelation is fulfilled, then they must have a firm command on the battle of Gog and Magog and be able to convincingly identify its historical referent. In this article, we will show that Gog and Magog was a symbol employed for the persecution under Nero and the Jews......................


Gog and Magog in Revelation

In Revelation, the battle of Gog and Magog occurs after the defeat and symbolic thousand-year binding of the dragon in the bottomless pit. The dragon represents the embodiment of sin and death expressing themselves in the children of disobedience in the form of Leviathan, the world civil power at enmity with God and his people. The dragon first appears in Rev. 12, where he attempts to kill the Christ-child in Herod’s slaughter of the innocents. (Rev. 12:4; Matt. 2:16-18) The child escapes and is later caught up to the throne of God. However, he first wages war with the dragon and his angels under the guise of Michael the Archangel (prince of angels). This was the earthly ministry of Christ, who defeated the power of sin and death by the blood of his cross (Rev. 12:11; Col. 2:14, 15), wresting the right of world dominion from dragon. Ascending to heaven, it thus became Christ’s to rule all nations with a rod of iron. (Rev. 12:5)

Are there any other Partial Preterists here that would like to give their views on this topic?

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.

Click to expand...

BABerean2 said:

If Christ returned in your version of the "parousia" during 70 AD, then the future return of Christ would be His Third Coming, instead of His Second Coming.

Did Christ return during 586 BC when God allowed the Babylonians to destroy Solomon's temple, in the same way the Romans destroyed the second temple?
Did Christ remain seated at the Father's right hand, while the temple was destroyed in 70 AD?
Was the New Covenant fulfilled during 70 AD, or was it fulfilled at Calvary?
Was there a time between Calvary and 70 AD when both the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant, were in effect at the same time? (See Galatians 4:24-31, and Hebrews 7:12.)

Answer the questions above honestly, based on the whole of scripture without ignoring anything, and you will be able to get partial preterism correct.

The dividing line between past and future of the Olivet Discourse is found in Luke 21:24.
We are now in "the times of the Gentiles".
Christ returns when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, (This occurred during 70 AD.)
........................................................
until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Luke 21:27 did not occur during 70 AD. It is a future event.

Click to expand...

parousia70 said:

Or His 5th Coming, If we count His "coming" to Paul on the Road to Damascus and His "coming" to Stephen at His stoning... or His 8th or 10th if we Count His multiple post Crucifixion/pre-ascension "comings"..

So I'm not sure why it matters if it's the 2nd or 10th?

Regardless, The only reference to His appearing a SECOND TIME in scripture is His appearing only to those who look for Him:
Hebrews 9:28

There is no scripture that says He appears "a second time" for all people or people who do NOT look for Him..

I'm fairly certain that any "comings" of Christ prior to the Incarnation at His Human Birth could not be classified as a "return"... However, the Babylonian Conquest of Israel was most certainly a "coming of God" in Judgment and a "Day of the Lord":

Lamentations 2:21
The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets: my
virgins and my young men are fallen by the sword; thou hast
slain them in the day of thine anger; thou hast killed,
and not pitied.

Lamentations 2:22
Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round about,
so that in the day of the LORD'S anger none escaped nor
remained

Yes. Just as God Remained Seated on His Heavenly throne when He "Came" and Slew the Israelites in the Day of His anger I noted above, and Just as God Remained Seated on His Throne when He "Rode a swift cloud into Egypt to stir up the Egyptians against themselves (Isaiah 19:1-2)

Jesus too, Remained IN Heaven, while His actions and commands there resulted in various tribulation period disasters on earth.

The coming of Christ on the clouds that every eye would see (Rev 1:7) is actually shown us in Revelation 14:14-20. There can be no doubt that the Rev 14:14-20 passage makes clear
that it is a coming in the heavenlies like unto the many O.T. Jehovah comings (cf. Isa 19:1-2; Deut 33:2; 2 Sam 22:7-16; Zech 9:13-16; Zeph 1:2-5; Isaiah 31, Neh 9:13-15; Hab 3:3-16; etc.). Jehovah came often in O.T. times, yet his presence, which always performed the desolations, was potent and invisible, orchestrated FROM His Seated position on His Heavenly Throne.

Are those the only two options?

The Inclusion of the Gentiles was a Necessary facet of the New Covenant in order for the New Covenant to be Ful-filled. This removes Calvary as a Optional fulfillment Date, as a Grant total of ZERO gentiles were part of the New Covenant at that time.

The Old Covenant Laws ALL had to be obeyed note for note by God's people. The curses and blessings of the Law are entirely dependent on the obedience of its subjects to the code. The judgments of the Laware what happened to Israel when the Babylonians destroyed them (read Lamentations). The judgments of the Law are what happened when the Romans destroyed them. Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28are the judgments of the Law.

Moses promised the following when Israel was in disobedience to the law:

Deuteronomy 28:15, 20-23, 25
"But it shall come about, if you do not obey the LORD your God, to observe to do all His commandments and His statutes with which I charge you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you: The LORD will send upon you curses, confusion, and rebuke, in all you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken Me. The LORD will make the pestilence cling to you until He has consumed you FROM THE LAND...The LORD will smite you with consumption and with fever and with inflammation AND WITH FIERY HEAT and with the sword and with blight and with mildew, and they will pursue you until you perish. THE HEAVEN WHICH IS OVER YOUR HEAD SHALL BE BRONZE AND THE EARTH WHICH IS UNDER YOU, IRON. The LORD shall cause you to be defeated before your enemies; you will go out one way against them, but you will flee seven ways before them, and you will be an example of terror to all the kingdoms of the earth.

Those who were STILL UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES included a great many in the early churches who, like those in Galatians 4:1-5:5 and Romans 8:14-25, were not making an effective conversion out of keeping the Law for righteousness and were entangled in Law bondage and corruption (including mandatory circumcision for righteousness). Such men were becoming debtors again to do the whole Law and were falling from grace at the time the Church was waiting for the hope of righteousness by faith (Gal 5:1-5; Gal 4:9-11; Romans 8:23-25). Those stumbling Christ-rejectors of the early Church met their full doom at AD 70 when they fell underneath the curses of the Law defined in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28.

These Curses, being Curses of the LAW of Moses, could not have been Justly metered out if the LAW of Moses was not, at that time, extant and in effect.
Our God is a Just God, and would not, indeed COULD not meter out a curse of a LAW Contract that was no longer in effect.

The true Christians, however, escaped the wrath miraculously and received the adoption and eternal inheritance of Christ and Abraham and were manifested at AD 70 as the true sons and daughters of God as they were hoping. This was yet a hope at the time Paul wrote Romans 8:23-25, but was realized when the Law curses came down upon Israel and the the Law of Moses was forever removed from planet earth.

As I was Honest in my answers, I take it therefore I have Partial Preterism Correct then

Why not?
Where does scripture teach that Luke 21:27 must be interpreted in Polar Opposite Fashion to Isaiah 19:1-2?

And again, I'll point to Revelation 14:14-20 which IS the Cloud coming that "every eye would see"....
Jehovah's numerous OT comings were always described as personal and visible (see: Isa 19:1-2; Isa 31 all; Deut 33:2, Zech 9:13; etc.). Jesus was to come "in the glory of the Father." Christ's coming was to be a Day of Yahweh event, which reveals to us the precise nature of that event.

So again, where does scripture teach is that Christ's Coming on the Clouds in judgment is to be interpreted in exactly polar opposite fashion to the Father's multiple, previous comings "on the clouds" in Judgment?

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Hello Parousia 70. Thank you for that awe inspiring post!

That is perhaps [or close to it ]one of the best critique' of Partial Preterism concerning the judgement on apostate 1st century Jerusalem I have seen. Well done.

Partial Preterism commentary #3

Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com

Steve Atkerson

• 2008: Will the Real Preterism Please Stand Up?

Lately I have spoken with several folks who, when they heard the word “preterism,” automatically thought of the end time heresy that the actual second coming of Jesus was in A.D. 70. These same people were surprised to learn that there are really two types of preterism.

　The one most talked about today is that which proposes that the second coming was in A.D. 70 and is an already past event, never to be repeated. This form of preterism is highly controversial. In fact, it is heretical. It is a relatively new kid on the theological block. This fact alone should sound a heresy warning alarm. Those who advocate it prefer to call it full preterism. It began in earnest in the 1870s with the writings of a congregational pastor in England named James Stuart Russell. He first chose to publish his heretical preterist book anonymously, and not until after his retirement from the pastorate did he allow his name to appear on a subsequent edition.

　The other type of preterism is much older, and not nearly so controversial. This older view holds that many of the prophecies of the New Testament were fulfilled in the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, but that the actual second coming of Jesus is still a future event. Thus, this older preterism is within the bounds of orthodox Christianity (as defined by the historic creeds and confessions of literally every denomination). This older view could be called classical or orthodox preterism. In fact, in many theological works it is often even spelled differently, as “praeterism.” See preteristsite.com.

　Throughout the past 2,000 years there have always been Christians who understand some of the prophecies of the New Testament to have been fulfilled in A.D. 70. Yet all of these believers all still looked forward to the second coming as a future event. None of them taught that the actual second coming was in the first century. One of the first people to advocate heretical preterism was Russell back in the 1870s. Throughout history, the overwhelming majority of preterists held to the orthodox preterist view.....................

Heretical preterism runs afoul of 2 Timothy 2:17-18 in that it teaches the resurrection of the dead to have already taken place. As warned in 2 Timothy 2, such teachings destroy people’s faith. Jesus clearly predicted that when He appears again, all who are in their tombs will come out. If Jesus’ second appearance really was in A.D. 70, then why are there still bodies in the grave, even in ancient tombs? Perhaps Jesus was wrong about what would happen upon His final return, in which case He cannot be trusted. Or perhaps the church, all the church, has been wrong for the past two millennia about the nature of the second coming, misunderstanding Jesus’ words. If so, Jesus still cannot be trusted since He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the church into all truth. Imagine: just like the Jews missed the first coming, so too the church has missed the second coming! For the Spirit to fail in such a colossal way further suggests that Jesus’ words cannot be trusted. Beware the destructive heresy of heretical preterism. It is nothing but godless chatter. Those who believe it have wandered away from the truth.

　*To find out more about historicism, the end time belief system held to universally by those who advanced the Protestant Reformation, go to www.historicist.com or www.historicism.net or www.endtimeinsights.com.

Steve Atkerson
www.NTRF.org
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Partial Preterism commentary #3
Partial Preterism at PreteristArchive.com
Steve Atkerson

• 2008: Will the Real Preterism Please Stand Up?

Heretical preterism runs afoul of 2 Timothy 2:17-18 in that it teaches the resurrection of the dead to have already taken place. As warned in 2 Timothy 2, such teachings destroy people’s faith. Jesus clearly predicted that when He appears again, all who are in their tombs will come out. If Jesus’ second appearance really was in A.D. 70, then why are there still bodies in the grave, even in ancient tombs? Perhaps Jesus was wrong about what would happen upon His final return, in which case He cannot be trusted. Or perhaps the church, all the church, has been wrong for the past two millennia about the nature of the second coming, misunderstanding Jesus’ words. If so, Jesus still cannot be trusted since He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide the church into all truth. Imagine: just like the Jews missed the first coming, so too the church has missed the second coming! For the Spirit to fail in such a colossal way further suggests that Jesus’ words cannot be trusted. Beware the destructive heresy of heretical preterism. It is nothing but godless chatter. Those who believe it have wandered away from the truth.

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BABerean2 said:

Thank you for exposing the heresy of Full-Preterism.
It has become quite popular during recent times, especially with the YouTube videos produced by heretic Don K. Preston.
Modern Dispensational Futurism is a ditch on the side of the road of Bible prophecy, and Full-Preterism is the ditch on the opposite side of the road.

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parousia70 said:

I've never found this to be a compelling argument against FP... there are quite a few compelling arguments against it, but this has never been one for me.

For it to be compelling, then one would have to say it will NEVER be ok to claim the resurrection is past, even after it actually IS past... which is an insurmountable conundrum.

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Hello parousia 70. Interesting post and I tend to agree it is a "conundrum" within Preterism.
I have a thread on that topic for those interested:

2 Timothy 2:18 "SOME SAYING RESURRECTION ALREADY BECAME"

LittleLambofJesus said:

Why would Paul have to say this to his followers concerning "some saying the resurrection has already happened"?
[which doesn't appear to occur until Revelation 20:5 "the first resurrection"?]
2 Timothy 2:18
who about the truth swerve<795>, saying the resurrection/ἀνάστασιν<386> already to have become/γεγονέναι<1096>
and they are subverting<396> the of-some<5100> faith.

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A few links concerning that:

What About Hymenaeus and Philetus   |  Study Archive 
*snip*
At this point my conscience also says, So why were Hymenaeus and Philetus excommunicated? Before I ask that, I have to ask myself the question: Had the resurrection happened yet? No, of course not. Second, I had to ask, why did not Paul correct the Thessalonians in 2 Thess 2:1-3 by saying "Look you guys, if the coming of Christ took place and the resurrection happened (according to the orthodox views of the 20th century), there would be bodies flying out of the graves etc. I know you have thought about this.
But how could Hymenaeus and Philetus be so stupid to say the resurrection had passed if everyone's conception of resurrection was bodies flying out of graves? Seriously. Then I had to ask the question, what was the real reason they were "overthrowing the faith of some"? I believe the answer lies in the fact that the resurrection was inseparable from the destruction of the Jewish Temple.

So what Hymenaeus and Phil were doing was negating the words of Christ and nullifying other VERY important prophecies that had to take place before that day would come (2 Thess 2:1-12). Also interesting is the fact that in 2 Thess 2, the KJV at hand is wrong. It is not the word AT HAND but literally means "has come." There were rumors that Christ had come. So now we have in two places (if their interpretation of the coming and resurrection was twentieth century orthodoxy) that crazy lunatics were trying to say the resurrection and coming had taken place. Well, quite honestly, I think these guys were smart enough to realize that no one would buy that tale unless they were seeing the physical body of Christ and graves popping open. But Russ, I believe they were taught and entirely different view of the kingdom/resurrection:
===============================
Andrew Sandlin: Hymenaeus Resurrected (1997)
*snip*
Second, the HP denial that Christ’s coming is a physical event cannot do justice to texts like Ac. 1:11 whose most obvious sense is that Christ will return to earth in a discrete, physical body. The HP’s are intent to argue that they do not deny the second Advent, only a second Advent after A. D. 70. This is at best disingenuous, and at worse deceptive. They do not believe in a physical second Advent of any kind. The heresy is less in claiming that it is past – though this too is heresy – than in claiming it is not physical.

Perhaps the most inconceivable and tortuous exegesis of the Leonards’ entire book is that which concludes that the rapture of 1 Thes. 4:17 may very well refer to the first-century’s Christians’ death [!]. [10] The very problem Paul addresses is the concern of the Thessalonians that they may never see their (physically!) dead brethren again. To argue that seeing their brethren again in the “death of the rapture” is Paul’s comfort makes nonsense of the passage. The descent of the Lord with the saints will include the snatching away of both those remaining alive in him, and the “dead in Christ” who rise first (v. 16). If the rapture denotes (physical) death, to whom does “the dead in Christ” refer? In v. 17, who are those who “are alive and remain”? If the rapture is nothing but physical death, why the differentiation between the dead in Christ and the living who remain? If the rapture denotes death, why should Christ return for those who are already dead? This makes no sense on the hyperpreterist thesis, but does pose a severe embarrassment. Even if v. 16 is taken to refer to the coming in judgment of A. D. 70, it could never plausibly be argued that all those who were alive during that era were “raptured by death” to rejoin their deceased brethren. In any case, who are the “dead in Christ” that are to rise at the destruction of Jerusalem? The entire HP suggestion is senseless.

Third, the definition of the resurrection of the just as a progressive evolution in victory from the old to the new covenant order in A. D. 33-70 leaves the issue of the resurrection of theunjust conspicuously missing. But the very passages that speak of the resurrection of the just speak no less emphatically of the resurrection of the unconverted (e.g., Ac. 24:15). Only if the resurrection of the unjust means a future, definitive physical resurrection to condemnation and the resurrection of the just means a future, definitive physical resurrection to life eternal can we do justice to the very meaning of the resurrection of both just and unjust.
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