Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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claninja

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Is there any reason why the child cannot be given both? Neither one cancels out the other. So it is with all of the promises of God.

Because the old covenant was taken away and made obsolete (hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 10:9).
You cannot put new wine into old wine skins, nor can you put an unshrunk patch on an old garment (matthew 9:16-17).

If the conditional old covenant promises of deuteronomy 28-30:1-5 were found in written in the NT as a part of the new covenant then I would agree with you, but as it is, they are not
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It makes sense if you believe in a God who is faithful in keeping all promises and who brings to fulfillment in the New Covenant those things that were foretold but did not come to pass under the Old Covenant.

God was faithful to fulfill His promises to old covenant Israel. But Israel could not keep their end, so he dissolved that agreement and superseded it with a new covenant (hebrews 8:6-8)

Does the faithful keeping of promises make the New Covenant like the Old Covenant? Does that keep the Old Covenant in effect? Is a promise of God made inferior just because it may not be the same as other promises that He has made?

God's faithfulness to uphold his side of the old covenant agreement was conditional upon Israel's obedience. God's faithfulness to send His son to save the world was unconditional. Under the new covenant God's blessings are not bestowed on us because of righteous works, but because of Christ's righteous works. So the way God bestows promises under the old covenant and new covenant are much different

Believing God's part of the of the old covenant agreement is still in effect displays that one believes the old covenant is still in effect.

By the very words of "Better Promises" as found in Hebrews 8:6-8, yes the old covenant promises are inferior for they could not bring about eternal life. They were simply a shadow pointing to the reality in Christ
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The Church is never called Israel in the literal sense, nor is it written that they replace the literal nation of Israel, but the nation of Israel will become a part of the Church. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

Is the natural olive tree that the branches were broken off for rejecting Christ, Israel or the church? (romans 11:17)

I did not deny that Israel is the central focus of the messages of both, but the difference between them is that the message of Hosea is extended to the Gentiles. Ezekiel does not mention them except in the sense of drawing the Jewish people out from among them and back into their homeland.

Gentiles are not explicitly mentioned in hosea 1. Both Ezekiel 37 and Hosea 1 are about the houses of Judah and Israel being brought together under 1 leader.


When were the Greeks ever invaded by foreign armies, taken captive, exiled from their homeland and scattered throughout the nations of the world like the Jews had been?
When were they regathered from the four corners of the earth and brought back to their land?

The greeks were over thrown by the romans. Greece became a nation again in the 1800s
No such distinction was made at the time that these things were written.

The hebrew parallelism of Micah 2:12 disagrees.



Some translations such as the Geneva and King James Bible say that a multitude of “nations” not “gentiles” would descend from Ephraim. But what nations would those presently be?

Ethnon is the greek equivalent of the hebrew word goyim, as evidenced by the LXX. It would be the same thing to say that the descendants of Ephraim would become a multitude of nations/gentiles.

ut that is not the end of the story. Hosea also foretold that they would be reconciled with God.

Absolutely agree. And Paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23 fulfilled by the inclusion of the gentiles with the Jews in the vessels of mercy in Romans 9:23-26. THis substantiates that the descendants of the northern kingdom that had been divorced and scattered by God, were gentiles. Thus by God including the gentiles, of whom some descended from Ephraim, with the Jews in the vessels of mercy, He fulfills His promises.

Which they were already doing before their punishment.

I agree



They did not all become scattered or mixed (2 Chr. 10:17, 11:13-14, 15:8-9, 30:5-6, 10-11, 18)

and as for those who were scattered throughout the nations, He promised, even in the midst of judgment, to keep them preserved. (Lev. 26-44-45, Deut. 4:31, 37)

I agree. Not all of the northern kingdom was divorced and scattered. Some moved to the southern kingdom (1 chronicles 9:1-3) and were still tribally intact by the 1st century (luke 2:36).

Does a man’s bloodline change upon his receiving or rejecting of Christ? Or is it the inward nature of the man that changes?

This doesn't answer my question. Is true Israel, those that reject Christ?

As to your question, no a man's genetics do not change upon accepting or rejecting Christ, only the inward nature changes. The spiritual being the more important than the natural.

In order for it to be a shadow, Israel would have had to submit themselves to punishment for the sins of others and not their own. What scripture does call as having served as a shadow of the redemption to come was the priestly and animal sacrificial system.

Can you tell what color someone's hair is by looking at his or her shadow? No.

A shadow is not an exact replica. Thus the law is not an exact replica of CHrist, put a shadow that pointed to Christ.


While the cited Deuteronomical passages and all that applied to them could be used as an illustration of our relationship to God (being under the curse of sin and then redeemed through Christ when we call upon Him for salvation), the New Testament writers never called those events a shadow of things to come. Again, it was the priestly and animal sacrificial system that was the shadow of things to come.

Food and drink, feasts, festivals, sabbaths, new moons, etc. where also shadows (colossians 2:16-17).

If one cannot understand the earthly pictures, how can they understand the heavenly pictures to which they point?

When you are born again, do you literally come out of your mother's womb a 2nd time?



But they were not the nation of Israel as a whole. The vast majority of Israel continued to persist in their rejection of Christ which led to their punishment at the hands of the Roman empire. Had that not been the case, the outcome might have been very different.

Not all of Israel is Israel (romans 9:6) and only a remnant would be saved (romans 9:27).

The literal fulfillment requires not only the Return of the King but a people ready to receive Him.
But it has not yet taken place because of Israel’s rejection of the King when He first came.

According to Jesus, his subjects that hated him before he ascended are the ones destroyed at his return. So i'm not sure what you mean by Israel must be ready to accept him before he comes.

Luke 19:14 But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We do not want this man to rule over us.’

Luke 19:27 And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me.’”

This is also confirmed by the parable of the wicked tenants, in which the wicked tenants are destroyed at the coming of the vineyard owner. the pharisees even recognize that Jesus is talking about them (Matthew 21:33-46).


But who is to say that God cannot transfer promises from one Covenant to another if that is what it takes to faithfully fulfill them?

Sure, just show which NT scriptures mention specific earthly old covenant promises are now a part of the new covenant. I'm not asking for your debatable interpretation of NT passages, I'm asking for explicit and clear evidence so we can agree.


You made it sound as though there is no such thing as a Jew by blood; Paul never went so far as to say that. He was explaining what defines a Jew in the spiritual sense.

The purpose of Jews by blood was bring up the Christ. Now under the new covenant, genetics and genealogies no longer matter. Thus the true people of God, the true Jew is one who is in Christ. For all who are in Christ are Abraham's offspring.


Again, why do you think that God has retained a Jewish presence in the land of Israel even before their re-establishment as a nation in 1948?

For the same reason all cultures tend to live in their ancient lands. why did Greeks continue to live in greece despite the greek diaspora?



It is interesting that the scripture does not explicitly call the Church the Bride of Christ, but the title is adopted due to the illustration of marriage often being used to describe the relationship that Jesus and the Church have with one another. But we will be dwelling with Christ in the New Jerusalem which is the Bride, thus making us a part of the Bride, thus going to show that the structure, topography, and ecosystem of the New Jerusalem are not all that defines the Bride but what defines the Bride are also who will be dwelling in her and those who go in and out of her.

The purpose of marriage is another picture to point to Christ's relationship with the church. The wife is the body and husband the head, just as the church is the body and Christ the head. the 2 are one.

The mystery is profound
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Ephesians 5:32 This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

he doctrine of the Gospel has its foundations in the Old Testament scriptures with the Apostles establishing its doctrine and the institution of the Church being built upon Christ, but the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem have only the names of the Apostles written on them. Whereabouts in the city the names of the prophets are written, the scriptures do not tell us.

Not sure what your point is. Both the body of Christ and new jerusalem have their foundations on the apostles. Use scripture to interpret scripture.

The Body of Christ is where God dwells through His Holy Spirit. He will dwell physically in the New Jerusalem upon the new earth among all men.


The ezekiel temple is where GOd's throne is and where he rests his feet (ezekiel 43:7) Heaven is his throne and the earth his footstool. The body of Christ/New Jerusalem is where GOd's throne is and where His feet rest. The new Jerusalem/body of Christ is a unit that exists on earth (footstool) and heaven (throne). Thus there are believers currently on earth (at his footstool) where God dwells in Spirit and believers in heaven( at his throne) where they dwell in the presence of God.

The ezekiel temple is a picture of the new Jerusalem. If one cannot understand the earthly pictures, how can they understand the heavenly reality.

In the Jerusalem of Ezekiel, there are many trees. In the New Jerusalem, there is only one.

Again, Shadow (ezekiel temple), reality (new Jerusalem).

We will dwell and move in and out of a city, but we are not a city nor are we a building. Christ dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, but His physical dwelling on the earth will be in the temple described by Ezekiel.

The one who overcomes is made a pillar in the temple of God (revelation 3:12). Is this a literal pilar or symbolic pilar?
 
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claninja

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You still have not been able to prove that my argument is from ignorance. In order to do that, you would have to prove that Paul was not drawing from Old Testament scriptures when he said that all Israel would eventually be saved and that their fullness upon being reconciled to God would not include permanent land restoration.

You have only provided your debatable interpretations from scripture that do not explicitly mention land restoration. There is, in fact, not one explicit or clear text in the NT that mentions land restoration, thus I have already proved that you are using an argument from ignorance.

To counter my argument, you need to provide at least 1 NT scripture that explicitly mentions land restoration, and not your interpretation of a passage that does not even mention land restoration
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He never said that they would be bereft of it forever either. In fact it is foretold that the day is coming in which they will be brought back to the land to remain there permanently. (Ezek. 37:25, Am. 9:15) Explain that.

These promises are under the old covenant agreement. The old covenant agreement is no longer in effect. The purpose of the old covenant agreement and subsequent prophecies made by the prophets were to point to Christ. They were shadows of the greater reality. They were earthly picture to point to the heavenly reality. These promises find their fulfillment in CHrist, in whom ALL The promises of God find their yes.

Is David the literal prince/shepherd over Israel or is it Jesus?

1. The book of Revelation has not yet come to pass.

2. Israel has not yet repented and received Him as their Messiah. (Zech. 12-14, Rom. 9:27, 11:26)

3. Christ has not yet returned to rule and reign over the entire earth. (Rev. 20)

4. The temple described in Ezekiel from which Christ is to rule for a thousand years has not yet manifested itself. (Ezek. 40-47)

5. Israel is not the capital and exalted nation of the world that it is destined to be under Christ. (Zech. 8:20-23)

6. We have not yet seen such peace on the earth under which even the animals are not killing one another. (Is. 11:6)

7. Satan has not yet suffered his final defeat.


The list goes on.

No, which parts of the old covenant have not been fulfilled yet?

The book of Hebrews made it clear that the Old Covenant was never intended to be permanent to begin with. The New Covenant was always in mind from the very beginning.

I agree


And again, who is to say that God cannot transfer promises from one Covenant to another if that is what it takes to fulfill them alongside the better promises tied to the New Covenant?

Sure, just provide NT scripture that explicitly and clearly mentions land restoration, and not your debatable interpration of NT scritpure.
Does the faithfulness of God in keeping His promises cease with the Old Covenant?

No, as the promises of the old covenant were conditional and not unconditional, thus doing away with the promises of the conditional agreement does not change God's faithfulness, it testifies to it.

The word for seed in the Greek is actually called “Sperma” and the manner in which it is defined is not confined to the singular but can also mean seed in the plural as well and though the Septuagint may predate the Masoretic text, the language in which the Masoretic text is written still predates the Septuagint. Which language are you going to trust more for the most reliable and accurate translation of scripture? The primary language in which it was originally written, or a secondary language?

The greek form of the word used in exodus 32:13b is spermati, which is singular. The singular use of seed is used in regard to the land.

kai elalsas pros autous legn Polyplthyn to sperma hymn
And you spoke to them, saying, I shall greatly multiply your seed
hsei ta astra tou ouranou tŸ plthei, kai pasan tn gn tautn,
as the stars of the heavens in multitude, and all this land
hn eipas dounai tŸ spermati autn, kai kathexousin autn eis ton aina.
which you spoke of to give it to their seed, so that they shall hold it into the eon.

Promises made to Abraham and to his seed (singular; spermati) are to Christ.
Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,”g meaning One, who is Christ.

The greek septuagint predates the masoretic texts by almost 1000 years. Considering the NT writers quote from the septuagint translation and not the masoretic translation, as that did not exist in their time, I have not problem with LXX.


That promise will be made manifest when Christ returns from Heaven and rules from Jerusalem in the land of Israel

It was made manifest when Christ ascended to heaven in front of many witnesses.

You got that much right.

I'm glad we can find some common ground.

The parable of the good seed was told to a Jewish audience but is still a parable concerning the entire world and not just Israel. Again, there is no evidence that Jesus was drawing from an Old Testament passage. You are assuming this to be the case because of similar analogies used in the passages you cited from the book of Jeremiah.

We should always use scripture to interpret scripture. you still have not addressed how God sowing Israel with man and beast along with giving them the new covenant is different than the son of man sowing the good seed.


ust because certain analogies are used in different passages of the scriptures, that does not mean that they are referring to the same thing. There is nothing in Jeremiah that states that Israel would be sown among the nations but Jer. 31:27 clearly states that the seed of both man and beast will be sown in the house of Judah and Israel; in their homeland.

It says Israel will be sown with man and beast

Jeremiah 31:27 The days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man and of beast
 
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BABerean2

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Actually the passages you just quoted are exactly what those propagating a Two Peoples of God would be expected to use to make such a doctrine more persuasive. More than one fold of sheep implies more than one flock and more than one flock implies more than one people at least as far as the present time is concerned.

That they will be gathered into one fold, they would argue, is an event yet to come yet the doctrine I am propagating has been none other than that which teaches that God is faithful in keeping all of His promises to all people He makes them to. (Heb. 10:23)

The promoters of your doctrine promote the concept of Two separate Peoples of God.

Classic Dispensationalists believe God will again go back to dealing with the modern nation of Israel after the end of the “Church Age”. They claim the Church is a “parenthesis” in God’s dealings with the nation of Israel.



Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church.



“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25


What you have claimed before, and what the Classic Dispensationalists are claiming above, is that God has earthly people (Israel), and a different group of heavenly people(Church).
John 10:16, and Hebrews 11:15-16 reveal the error of this logic.

Now you seem to be claiming that God only has one flock. Which is it?
Can you make up your mind?


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claninja

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Believers are not being sent out to punish people for their wickedness but are sent out to warn of judgment and call men to repentance in Christ. I do not see the saints ruling with an iron rod and dashing the nations to pieces like clay pots as the book of Revelation says will happen. (Rev. 2:26-27)

I do not see those who persecute Christians for their faith being swiftly brought to justice. I do not see peace being enforced throughout the world and wars ceasing. I do not see all the animals peacefully coexisting with one another and man as would be the case if Jesus were physically present in the world. Wickedness and immorality are on the increase in various parts of the world.

Most importantly, I do not see Jesus ruling from Jerusalem and all the nations of the world going there to pay homage to Him.

This present world with all its sin and wickedness does not look like a world where the law of Jesus Christ is being presently enforced as the scriptures say will happen.

Considering Jesus uses the past tense of "have received" authority, we see that those who overcome until the end will be given the authority that Jesus already has. Thus the preterist believes that Jesus already has this authority from heaven and when the believer overcomes and goes home to be with Christ, they become co heirs in the heavenly Jerusalem.

Revelation 2:26-26 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, and he will rulec them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.

As the body of CHirst is all over the world today and not localized to the earthly Jerusalem, we can in fact see that Jesus is conquering and bringing truth to the nations.


Most theological doctrines and arguments that I have come across so far have relied on more than one single passage of scripture. As for the thousand year reign, the specified time length thereof is only mentioned in Revelation 20. There is no denying that. But there are a lot more scriptures that give details about what that era will be like in comparison to this present age, but that is another topic for another thread.

All theological doctrines use singular verses whether they agree they do or not. Typically, those verses should be non apocalyptic or parabolic language so they are less debatable.

How was the Gospel preached to every creature under Heaven if the Apostles had not visited every continent on the planet? This where we must consult every passage of scripture pertaining to how God makes Himself known to all the world.

You'll have to ask Paul, if you disagree with him. Paul spoke in very clear and explicit terminology. I, on the other hand, will take him on his word.

osmos includes both inhabited and uninhabited lands where as Oikumene pertains to just inhabited lands which would include lands and people outside the Roman empire.

(properly: the land that is being inhabited, the land in a state of habitation), the inhabited world, that is, the Roman world, for all outside it was regarded as of no account.

he return of Christ could easily take place in one generation as it could in another. If it were not so, Peter would never have said that a thousand years is as a day in the sight of the Lord and that the Lord does not count slowness as we might count it.

"This generation shall not pass away until all these things occur"

The Jews at the time Jesus spoke of those signs in the heavens that would precede His return did not view heavenly signs as being associated with forthcoming events. In fact, the Bible forbids such activity.

The moon was still used to mark months, the sun was used to mark different times of each day, and the stars were used to mark the beginning of different seasons, but never in that particular generation were they used to predict forthcoming events as Pagan Greco-Rome might have done.

So then we should not all use any signs in the heavens to indicate forthcoming events, correct? the sun turning black and the moon not giving its light and the stars falling from the sky should not indicate forth coming events by your logic then. (just FYI, as a preterist I don't necessarily believe the "sun going black, the moon not giving its light, nor the stars falling from heaven" as literal events, but instead apocalyptic language used to describe the fall of governments. If those are accompanied by solar/lunar eclipses and shooting stars, then so be it.)

And any signs in the heavens God uses to warn of or herald a forthcoming event are not going to have anything to do with any astrological horoscope.

Right, but signs in the heavens as they are related to events on earth are more related to astrology then astronomy.

The return of Christ could easily take place in one generation as it could in another. If it were not so, Peter would never have said that a thousand years is as a day in the sight of the Lord and that the Lord does not count slowness as we might count it.

The coming of Christ in judgment on Israel occurred just as Jesus said it would, "this generation will not pass away until all these things occur". Did the temple fall? yes just as Jesus predicted within the generation that lived during the 1st century.


Showing earthquake trends or any trend for that matter by decade instead of annual does not give the full picture of what is actually happening and because the annual trends are available, it would be data manipulation to leave years out.

In fact it does give a pretty good picture. If earthqaukes were increasing, as you claim, wouldn't the data show an increase of earthqaukes from 2010 to 2018?

Data manipulation would include leaving out the outliers. I included one of the outliers by including the year 2010, which was one of the highest years of earthquakes.

additionally, both the USGS and BSG agree that earthquakes have not increased in any significance since 1990. What has changed since the 1990s is our ability to measure earthquake frequency, not the frequency themselves.


That is why when it comes to examining data, every detail must be taken into account even if that data does not lead us to where we hope it will.

This is ironic. since we don't have record of every earthquake since the time of Jesus, we in fact, don't have all the data, and therefore cannot show that earthquakes have been increasing with absolute certainty.

When all eighteen years are put together, the data may be fluctuative with spikes and dips but an overall increase in frequency is shown even if you don’t want to accept it.

The increase of frequency of from 1990 to 2018 of about 300 earthquakes is due to the improved technology at measuring earthquake frequency, not an increase in frequency itself. Thus, neither the BSG nor the USGS state that earthquake frequency has been increasing at a significant level.

From 2010 to 2018, frequency decreased overall even if you don't want to accept it.


Whether a gradual or sharp increase is taking place, an increase is an increase and because the USGS data gives a more complete picture, that is the source to which I have appealed.

and the USGS also agrees that earthquakes haven't increased in frequency in statistically significant matter.

I merely stated that the data being examined is subjected from an interpretation based on a presupposition. Christians and non-Christians can have the same data and scientific evidence presented before them but yet will still interpret that evidence and data according to the presuppositions they hold to.

I absolutely agree. So where did Jesus say that earthquakes would increase in frequency?
 
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jgr

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you display no understanding about how all nations are blessed through Abraham

Here is an excellently thorough discourse on how the promise of blessing through Abraham's seed is fulfilled in Christ and Christ alone.

Included is a rebuttal of the dispensational claim that Paul was "wrong and mistaken" in his inspired emphatic declaration in Galatians 3:16.
 
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Here is an excellently thorough discourse on how the promise of blessing through Abraham's seed is fulfilled in Christ and Christ alone.

Included is a rebuttal of the dispensational claim that Paul was "wrong and mistaken" in his inspired emphatic declaration in Galatians 3:16.


Admittedly, the discourse is far too lengthy to be commented on in this thread, but only one out of three dispensational scholars that the discourse attempts to refute said that Paul was "wrong and mistaken" in his declaration in Galatians 3:16 and is not representative of the opinions of the other scholars featured nor is it representative of the vast majority who abide by what you call Dispensationalism.

A critique of the discourse in full, due to its length might not be able to be done on this thread or even this forum due to space limitations set. But I will be sure to do so on my external blogsite for anyone interested. When that day comes, an announcement will be made.
 
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What you have claimed before, and what the Classic Dispensationalists are claiming above, is that God has earthly people (Israel), and a different group of heavenly people(Church).
John 10:16, and Hebrews 11:15-16 reveal the error of this logic.


While I agree with much of what the men you cited say, I do not agree with everything they say. For example, Lewis Sperry Chafer stated the following:



“David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”


There is debate as to whether or not this David is literally King David or a title for Christ, but one thing is for sure: He will have a throne on earth and an eternal throne in Heaven. The Church, when the day comes for Christ to bring His physical reign to the earth, will not remain in Heaven, but will be reigning on earth with Him. And in the new heaven and earth, Heaven and earth will be joined together.


He also stated:


“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”


Every purpose carried out on earth by God, whether through Israel or the Church, is meant to achieve a heavenly objective.

While Dispensationalists may agree on some central tenets, that does not mean they are in agreement on every eschatological point; a fact that you do not seem to recognize.
In my defense, I at least recognize that Preterists do not agree with one another on every eschatological point either.


Now you seem to be claiming that God only has one flock. Which is it?
Can you make up your mind?


I am not contradicting myself. I merely stated that according to John 10:16, Jesus said that He had other people outside of the nation of Israel and that eventually, the two would become one flock, but whereas Israel was promised and given an earthly nation, the Church is of a heavenly kingdom which will one day be brought to the earth. No earthly nation has been made for us. They who are of Israel and accept Jesus are then not only a part of an earthly nation, they are also part of a heavenly nation. Eventually, that earthly nation will become a part of the heavenly.

But it cannot be denied that the Jews were given a status and a set of promises that no one else was given; promises that will meet their fulfillment in Christ who will fulfill them according to the letter.
 
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BABerean2

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I am not contradicting myself. I merely stated that according to John 10:16, Jesus said that He had other people outside of the nation of Israel and that eventually, the two would become one flock, but whereas Israel was promised and given an earthly nation, the Church is of a heavenly kingdom which will one day be brought to the earth. No earthly nation has been made for us. They who are of Israel and accept Jesus are then not only a part of an earthly nation, they are also part of a heavenly nation. Eventually, that earthly nation will become a part of the heavenly.

But it cannot be denied that the Jews were given a status and a set of promises that no one else was given; promises that will meet their fulfillment in Christ who will fulfill them according to the letter.

If you cut all of the references to the New Covenant out of your Bible, maybe you can make the above work. Your Two Peoples of God doctrine cannot help but produce contradictions, because it is a man-made doctrine.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, The Two Peoples of God doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


“The Prophecy of Daniel 9” by Dr. Kelly Varner.


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jgr

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Admittedly, the discourse is far too lengthy to be commented on in this thread, but only one out of three dispensational scholars that the discourse attempts to refute said that Paul was "wrong and mistaken" in his declaration in Galatians 3:16 and is not representative of the opinions of the other scholars featured nor is it representative of the vast majority who abide by what you call Dispensationalism.

A critique of the discourse in full, due to its length might not be able to be done on this thread or even this forum due to space limitations set. But I will be sure to do so on my external blogsite for anyone interested. When that day comes, an announcement will be made.

All three believe that Galatians 3:16 does not refer to Christ alone.

All three therefore believe that Paul was wrong.

One of them declares it explicitly, the other two do not.

But the inescapable conclusion is the same for all three.

And they are not alone.
 
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keras

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To counter my argument, you need to provide at least 1 NT scripture that explicitly mentions land restoration, and not your interpretation of a passage that does not even mention land restoration.
The proof that God's holy people; who can only be faithful Christians, ARE in the holy Land in the end times, is in Revelation 13:7, confirmed by Daniel 7:25; where they are there when the Anti-Christ conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2
They are there in Revelation 12:6-17 and John sees them in Jerusalem soon after the Sixth Seal event had cleared and cleansed the holy Land. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Revelation 7:9

To live in all of the holy Land is our Christian destiny and our great privilege. Psalms 37:29
 
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claninja

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The proof that God's holy people; who can only be faithful Christians, ARE in the holy Land in the end times, is in Revelation 13:7, confirmed by Daniel 7:25; where they are there when the Anti-Christ conquers them. Zechariah 14:1-2
They are there in Revelation 12:6-17

Revelation 13:7 does not mention land restoration

Revelation 13:7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation

Daniel 7:25 does not mention land restoration

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak words against the Most High,and shall wear out the saints of the Most High,
and shall think to change the times and the law;and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

Zechariah 14:1-2 does not mention land restoration
zechariah 14:1-2 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city

Revelation 12:6-17 does not mention land restoration.

Revelation 12:6-17 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. 10And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothersb has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. 12Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!” And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stoodc on the sand of the sea.

ARE in the holy Land in the end times

The last days/end of the age/last hour occurred in the 1st century, when the promised land was already inhabited by believers.

Acts 2:14-16 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.b But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.

James 5:8-9 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

The temple was destroyed in the 1st century at the end of the age, just as Jesus said it would be.

To live in all of the holy Land is our Christian destiny and our great privilege

Please provide even 1 NT scripture that states the present physical land of Israel is our destiny to substantiate your claim and to support your interpretation of the OT.
 
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parousia70

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The Church, while having been founded by Abraham’s seed, has consisted and still consists of those who are both descendants of Abraham and those who are not.

Okay...

That the Church has been called Israel in the spiritual sense cannot be denied, but it has never called Israel in the literal sense nor has it taken the place of Israel as a nation and people.

Incorrect-ish...

The Church has never REPLACED Israel, it always WAS, and Remains Israel...

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the 7000 Faithful of Israel who refused to Bow their Knee to Baal also "Replaced" Israel(1 Kings 19:1-18; Romans 11:2-40)

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying The Faithful "Church" of the nation in the Wilderness "Replaced" Israel when they entered the Promised Land (Numbers 14:26-45; Numbers 21:5-9; Numbers 16:1-50, Acts 7:38-45)

Saying the Church has replaced Israel would be the same as Saying the small but faithful remnant In Isaiah's day "Replaced" Israel. (Isaiah 10:22-23; Isaiah 1:7-9; Romans 9:27-29)

The Church NEVER Replaced Israel, the Church is, and always was, the Faithful Remnant OF Israel, and indeed is the only entity through which the continuation of the NATION of Israel itself MUST be counted, for the rest were cut off forever (Acts 3:22-24)

Here is the Scriptural TRUTH about the Identity of Israel:
The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Romans 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Romans 4:16/Galatians 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Peter 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Galatians 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" (Ephesians 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Peter 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Philippians 3:2-3).

Each and every one of these statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Revelation 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 John 2:23)
 
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keras

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Please provide even 1 NT scripture that states the present physical land of Israel is our destiny to substantiate your claim and to support your interpretation of the OT.
Well, there is plenty in the OT, you cannot dispute them. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35, Psalms 107, +, and the verses in Revelation that I gave, DO prove that God's holy people are a cohesive group, together somewhere on earth. But Romans 9:24-26 says that the Christians will be called sons of the Living God....in the same place as the ancient Israelites were rejected.
I now demand that you substantiate your belief, which I assume; is that the Christians will go to live in heaven during the end times.
 
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claninja

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Well, there is plenty in the OT, you cannot dispute them

This assumes your interpretation of the OT as applied to the new covenant people is right. Considering the disciples had to have their minds opened to understand the scriptures, The NT should guide our interpretation of the OT.

So you should be able to provide even 1 new testament scripture that specifically mentions land restoration in order to support your OT interpretation.


and the verses in Revelation that I gave, DO prove that God's holy people are a cohesive group, together somewhere on earth

You are using highly apocalyptic language that does not mention land restoration to prove your point?

But Romans 9:24-26 says that the Christians will be called sons of the Living God....in the same place as the ancient Israelites were rejected.

Where was the northern kingdom rejected? the exact location of where God declared to hosea "not my people" is not given, but as hosea was a prophet to the northern kingdom, I would bet it is safe to assume that God told hosea that Israel was no longer his people in the northern kingdom.

So where did God declare gentiles his people? Well, in Acts 10, God declared gentiles clean to Peter in Joppa. Joppa was located in the northern part of the land of Israel. This was backed up by Peter declaring gentiles clean in caesarea, which was also located in the northern part of the land of Israel.

So this has already been fulfilled, thus paul quotes hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as being fulfilled with the inclusion of the gentiles with the Jews in the vessels of mercy in 1st century.


I now demand that you substantiate your belief, which I assume; is that the Christians will go to live in heaven during the end times.

We have an eternal house IN HEAVEN
2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands

Out citizenship is IN HEAVEN
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ

Paul was looking forward for God bringing him INTO HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM
2 timothy 4:18 Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

When Abraham was in the promised land he had acknowledge that he was a stranger and exile on earth because he was desiring a HEAVENLY COUNTRY.
Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Jesus went to the Most holy place, behind the curtain as a forerunner on our behalf. Do you know what a forerunner is?
Hebrews 6:19-20 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Where did Jesus inherit the kingdom? Why would we inherit the kingdom differently?
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return
 
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keras

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So where did God declare gentiles his people? Well, in Acts 10, God declared gentiles clean to Peter in Joppa. Joppa was located in the northern part of the land of Israel. This was backed up by Peter declaring gentiles clean in caesarea, which was also located in the northern part of the land of Israel.
Wrong, Joppa; modern Jaffa, is in Southern Israel, on the Med coast.

It is perfectly Biblical to know that we Christians will inherit the holy Land. We belong to Jesus Christ and thru Him, we receive all the Promises of God to His faithful people. Romans 8:16-17, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 3:6
Psalms 37:29 plainly states that the righteous will inherit the Land and will live there forever.
Not happened yet, but it will and it is the destiny of all the faithful Christians alive then. Which will be soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the next prophesied event.
Out citizenship is IN HEAVEN
Philippians 3:20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ
I just picked out one of your so called 'rapture proofs'.
This verse does not say we ever go to heaven; our names are enrolled there, in the Book of Life and we await the Return of Jesus from heaven.
Basing a doctrine so important as the removal of millions to heaven, on any of the scriptures you provided, is extremely flimsy and tenuous.
The fact is that there is no definitive Biblical statement about such a thing as God taking His people to heaven and that there IS a viable alternative; where the Christians go to live in all of the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16
 
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claninja

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Wrong, Joppa; modern Jaffa, is in Southern Israel, on the Med coast.

Joppa/Jaffa was located in the northern kingdom, So I'm not sure what you are talking about. I have been unable to find even one map that shows Joppa/joffa located in the southern kingdom to substantiate your claim. Attached is a map showing Joppa/Joffa in the northern kingdom.

It is perfectly Biblical to know that we Christians will inherit the holy Land. We belong to Jesus Christ and thru Him, we receive all the Promises of God to His faithful people. Romans 8:16-17, Galatians 3:26-29, Ephesians 3:6
Psalms 37:29 plainly states that the righteous will inherit the Land and will live there forever.
Not happened yet, but it will and it is the destiny of all the faithful Christians alive then. Which will be soon after the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the next prophesied event.

I agree that Christians are co-heirs with Christ. We simply disagree on how that occurs.

As Christ resurrected then ascended to heaven to receive the kingdom and become heir of all things, I would argue that believers resurrect and ascend to heaven to inherit the kingdom and become co-heirs with Christ. We appear to sort of agree on the principle, just not the location.


I just picked out one of your so called 'rapture proofs'.
This verse does not say we ever go to heaven; our names are enrolled there, in the Book of Life and we await the Return of Jesus from heaven.
Basing a doctrine so important as the removal of millions to heaven, on any of the scriptures you provided, is extremely flimsy and tenuous.
The fact is that there is no definitive Biblical statement about such a thing as God taking His people to heaven and that there IS a viable alternative; where the Christians go to live in all of the holy Land, being the people God always wanted there, His witnesses, Isaiah 43:8-10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:3-8, Matthew 5:14-16

So by your logic if I told you that I have an American citizenship and can live in America, you would say I am wrong. I would disagree with that logic.

There are multiple definitive statements on going to heaven:

We have an eternal house IN HEAVEN

2 Corinthians 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands

Paul was looking forward for God bringing him INTO HIS HEAVENLY KINGDOM
2 timothy 4:18 Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom.

When Abraham was in the promised land he had acknowledge that he was a stranger and exile on earth because he was desiring a HEAVENLY COUNTRY.
Hebrews 11:13-16 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Jesus went to the Most holy place, behind the curtain as a forerunner on our behalf. Do you know what a forerunner is?
Hebrews 6:19-20 We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

Where did Jesus inherit the kingdom? Why would we inherit the kingdom differently?
Luke 19:12 He said therefore, “A nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and then return
 

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If the conditional old covenant promises of deuteronomy 28-30:1-5 were found in written in the NT as a part of the new covenant then I would agree with you, but as it is, they are not. So the way God bestows promises under the old covenant and new covenant are much different. Believing God's part of the of the old covenant agreement is still in effect displays that one believes the old covenant is still in effect.

By the very words of "Better Promises" as found in Hebrews 8:6-8, yes the old covenant promises are inferior for they could not bring about eternal life. They were simply a shadow pointing to the reality in Christ.



Even if the conditions under which God fulfills promises are made change, does that mean His faithfulness dies with the Old Covenant as well? If the promises made to Israel and all that was foretold concerning them do not meet their fulfillment under the New Testament, that is what the ramifications are. And if even the least of all promises made are not fulfilled, how can we be sure that the "Better Promises" will be? Is the unchangeable nature and faithfulness of God keeping the Old Covenant in effect?


Is the natural olive tree that the branches were broken off for rejecting Christ, Israel or the church?


Are the natural branches able to be grafted back in again if they do not remain in unbelief? And what warning is issued to those branches grafted in that were not part of the natural olive tree?


Gentiles are not explicitly mentioned in hosea 1.



Yet Paul seemed to believe that Hosea was referencing Gentiles. It would not otherwise make sense for him to appeal to Hosea as it concerns the salvation of the Gentiles if Hosea had not made reference to the Gentiles.


The greeks were over thrown by the romans. Greece became a nation again in the 1800s


But were they exiled and scattered throughout the nations as the Jews were?


The hebrew parallelism of Micah 2:12 disagrees.


There is the godly and the ungodly among Israel but the distinction between the Israel of the Spirit and the Israel of the flesh is not made until the New Testament.


Ethnon is the greek equivalent of the hebrew word goyim, as evidenced by the LXX. It would be the same thing to say that the descendants of Ephraim would become a multitude of nations/gentiles.


But what nations have descended from Ephraim? In such a case, then a tribe of Israel truly would be lost. But the scripture never said that any of the tribes would be lost. Only scattered.


THis substantiates that the descendants of the northern kingdom that had been divorced and scattered by God, were gentiles. Thus by God including the gentiles, of whom some descended from Ephraim, with the Jews in the vessels of mercy, He fulfills His promises.


If they were really gentiles as you claim, then the ten northern tribes would have already been extinct before God "divorced" them and scattered them, but again, scripture never said that any of the tribes would ever go extinct.

However, it could be argued that due to their rebellion, God at some point, would have regarded the Northern Kingdom as being spiritually no different than the Gentiles.


Is true Israel, those that reject Christ?


Israel consists of those who both continue in their rejection of Christ and those who have embraced Him. One day, Israel will consist only of those Jews who have embraced Christ after the unbelief has been purged from them. But that does not mean that Israel will lose its distinctiveness as a nation. God has made clear that He would forever preserve them as a nation and people. (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26)


A shadow is not an exact replica. Thus the law is not an exact replica of CHrist, put a shadow that pointed to Christ.


No, but it remains consistent with the basic image it portrays. Israel being punished only for its owns sins is not consistent with the image of one who suffers for the sins of others.


Not all of Israel is Israel (romans 9:6) and only a remnant would be saved (romans 9:27).


That remnant being what will remain of the nation when that day comes.


According to Jesus, his subjects that hated him before he ascended are the ones destroyed at his return.


Paul did say that they would not always continue in unbelief and could be grafted back in. (Rom. 11) And the nation of Israel, far from being destroyed is still alive and thriving despite having faced judgment before and yet you find it impossible that the nation as a whole would ever possibly repent?


just show which NT scriptures mention specific earthly old covenant promises are now a part of the new covenant.


Just show which scriptures that state that God is not capable of fulfilling in the New Testament what was not fulfilled beforehand.



The purpose of Jews by blood was bring up the Christ. Now under the new covenant, genetics and genealogies no longer matter.


And yet in spite of that, He has promised to preserve Israel as a distinct nation. (Jer. 30:11, 31:35-37, 33:20-26) There must be a purpose in that as well.


why did Greeks continue to live in greece despite the greek diaspora?


But were they scattered to the four corners of the earth like Israel was.


The purpose of marriage is another picture to point to Christ's relationship with the church.


That has been used to point to Christ's relationship with the Church. As for why marriage was created in the first place, that is a subject far removed from this thread.


Use scripture to interpret scripture.


When it comes to comparing scripture with scripture, it is not enough to note the similarities. We must also take into account the differences as well. The scriptures being compared may not be talking about the same thing.


The ezekiel temple is where GOd's throne is and where he rests his feet (ezekiel 43:7) Heaven is his throne and the earth his footstool. The body of Christ/New Jerusalem is where GOd's throne is and where His feet rest. The new Jerusalem/body of Christ is a unit that exists on earth (footstool) and heaven (throne).


Ezekiel's vision of this temple depicts it on earth, not in Heaven, but one thing is for certain: When the New Jerusalem does arrive, the footstool will be much closer to the Throne than it presently is now. This shadow is portrayed just as literally as the reality. A study on the similarities and differences between the two would be great but not meant for this thread.


The one who overcomes is made a pillar in the temple of God (revelation 3:12). Is this a literal pilar or symbolic pilar?


The passage is in reference to the New Jerusalem described in the 21st chapter of Revelation wherein it is stated that Christ will be that Temple of which we will be a part. We will forever be dwelling in His presence.
 
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