To Believers, Is This Evidence For Satan?

The Barbarian

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ended up in a heated discussion with someone, whom I think was an evolutionist, who exclaimed birds came from dinosaurs. I said that I didn't think little, tiny birds evolved from great, big, gigantic dinosaurs

The evidence shows that they evolved from little,tiny dinosaurs.

and that Oregon State University research showed that a bird's lung development was different from a dinosaur's, i.e. a bird would not be able to breathe and fly if they had lungs like dinosaurs.

Yes, that's true. And now we find...

Dinosaurs' hollow bones may have given them the puff to lead active lifestyles. A fossil find shows that the group of dinosaurs that included Velociraptor and Tyrannosaurus rex probably used the same super-efficient respiratory system that birds have today.


The fossil, which is of a carnivorous dinosaur called Majungatholus atopus, shows that its bones included spaces for storing air. This would have allowed the species to have the quick metabolism necessary for an active predatory lifestyle.
...
Birds have fast metabolic rates thanks to their efficient way of extracting oxygen from the air. They have two lungs, as mammals do, but the airflow through them is controlled by a complex system of air sacs throughout the body. Most birds have nine such sacs, which also extend through their hollow bones.


Patrick O'Connor, of Ohio University in Athens, and Leon Claessens, of Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, compared the structure of air sacs in M. atopus 's vertebrae to those in more than 200 living birds. The structures were very similar, they report in this week's Nature1.


"This study paints a clearer picture of how these organisms would have existed in their environment," says O'Connor. "It indicates that these animals had the potential for a high metabolic rate."
Dinosaurs breathed like birds : Nature News


Surprise.
 
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jamesbond007

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The evidence shows that they evolved from little,tiny dinosaurs.

What evidence is that? Are there transitional fossils?

Yes, that's true. And now we find...

Dinosaurs' hollow bones may have given them the puff to lead active lifestyles. A fossil find shows that the group of dinosaurs that included Velociraptor and Tyrannosaurus rex probably used the same super-efficient respiratory system that birds have today.


The fossil, which is of a carnivorous dinosaur called Majungatholus atopus, shows that its bones included spaces for storing air. This would have allowed the species to have the quick metabolism necessary for an active predatory lifestyle.
...
Birds have fast metabolic rates thanks to their efficient way of extracting oxygen from the air. They have two lungs, as mammals do, but the airflow through them is controlled by a complex system of air sacs throughout the body. Most birds have nine such sacs, which also extend through their hollow bones.


Patrick O'Connor, of Ohio University in Athens, and Leon Claessens, of Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts, compared the structure of air sacs in M. atopus 's vertebrae to those in more than 200 living birds. The structures were very similar, they report in this week's Nature1.


"This study paints a clearer picture of how these organisms would have existed in their environment," says O'Connor. "It indicates that these animals had the potential for a high metabolic rate."
Dinosaurs breathed like birds : Nature News


Surprise.

The surprise is on you. Your article is from 2005. Mine is from 2009 -- Theropod Dinosaurs Evolved Into Birds? Not Likely, Says Study.

You said you knew of the OSU study.

Unfortunately, we do not have dinosaurs around today to see. However, we still have chimps and apes and do not see any of them become bipedal. There were dinosaurs that flew. We also know that gravity was less in the past. However, evos do not believe that either due to uniformitarianism. Another contradiction.

So, why does Satan want us to believe that and not what God said? Or some seem to be saying that God created evolution and that Genesis is wrong. How can Genesis be wrong because it cannot change. The macroevolution theory could be gone in the future like the eternal universe. If you want to convince me birds are dinosaurs, then show me the reverse engineering of a bird back into a dinosaur.

I thought the guy was so insistent in his belief was because it is another example of macroevolution. We both agree on microevolution. Otherwise, I don't think this guy would have been so insistent.

I'm not sure why Satan wants us to think opposite. I suspect he wants to mislead. I just think it's important to keep an open mind and realize he does exist. I'm learning that it's difficult for people to think Satan exists is because we see him as a guy in a red devil's suit with horns and a pitchfork. Or some tiny bad angel that sits on our shoulder and tempts us to do bad things while another tiny angel sits on the other shoulder and warns us not to do it.
 
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jamesbond007

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Allow me to expound on Satan and evolution. Even if evolution is part wrong or all wrong, or a better theory replaces it, what is the big deal? So what if we didn't evolve from proto apes or chimps or birds are not dinosaurs? Is believing in that, in and of itself, a sin? I don't think so. It just means that one of us is wrong. Maybe if you believe in order to go against God or to replace God, then it is a sin. It just means one of us is wrong. The YEC would be wrong in reading the Bible literally for the most part (only part that is interpretative is the prophecies). Their scientific theories could be wrong, too. They have such as with the white hole cosmology. However, I don't think that's the case with macroevolution. It's evolution that is wrong. I think most of the evolution scientists are atheists.

Anyway, why would Satan contradict God? Certainly, it's in his rebellious nature to do so. What could be the problem is that he's misleading those who believe in these things and eventually they'll end up not following Jesus. I don't know the answer to this question, but perhaps it's better to not be so insistent and then find out this is not the case.
 
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SkyWriting

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I ended up in a heated discussion with someone....

Proverbs 15:4
A gentle tongue is a tree of life, but perverseness in it breaks the spirit.

Colossians 4:6
Let your speech always be gracious, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how you ought to answer each person.

Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruits.

Proverbs 21:23
Whoever keeps his mouth and his tongue keeps himself out of trouble.

Proverbs 13:3
Whoever guards his mouth preserves his life; he who opens wide his lips comes to ruin.
 
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SkyWriting

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God didn't create the sun on the first day. He did that on the 4th.

The "Morning and evening" are not tied to the sun and the earths rotation.
And "morning and evening" are not a 24 or even a 12 hour cycle.
Thanks.
 
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SkyWriting

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The above days refer to one day as twenty-four hours.

They do refer to a perfect creation.
Which is very good. Which is a paradise.
Which man was removed from.
So we are not there.
 
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The Barbarian

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Barbarian observes:
The evidence shows that they evolved from little,tiny dinosaurs.

What evidence is that? Are there transitional fossils?

Yep. Lots and lots of them.

The first known was Archaeopteryx, first classified as a dinosaur until fossils of that organism was found with feathers.

Sinornis was even more birdlike, feathered but with a bird like tail.

Ichthyornis (93-83.5 Ma) may be difficult to discern from a modern seabird. Many of the limb bones, including the fingers have become fused in Ichthyornis, resulting in a skeleton that was probably well-adapted for powered flight. Nonetheless, as one of the final holdouts of its reptilian past, Ichthyornis still had teeth. Interestingly, however, its jaw tip appears to be covered by an incipient beak, suggesting the transformation is nearly complete.
Fossils document how dinosaurs gave rise to birds

(Fossils show that dinosaurs had avian lungs)

The surprise is on you. Your article is from 2005. Mine is from 2009

Nope. Your guy doesn't refute the facts. He just thinks a detail of the leg means it didn't happen. Since the 1990s, many dinosaur fossils have been found to show an avian respiratory system...

Among extant tetrapods, pneumatic postcranial bones are only present in birds, and they are osteological correlates of the diverticular lungs and pulmonary air sacs. The presence of postcranial pneumaticity in sauropod and theropod dinosaurs suggests that some form of air sac system was also present in the dinosaurian ancestors of birds. In particular, anatomical and evolutionary patterns of pneumatization in nonavian saurischian dinosaurs are diagnostic for specific air sacs, including the cervical, clavicular, and abdominal air sacs. Pneumatic hiatuses are gaps in the pneumatization of the vertebral column and indicate pneumatization from multiple sources. A pneumatic hiatus in Haplocanthosaurus provides additional support for the presence of abdominal air sacs in sauropods. The origins of postcranial pneumaticity in archosaurs are enigmatic because the earliest putative traces of pneumaticity are difficult to distinguish from skeletal imprints of other soft tissues. Nevertheless, several lines of evidence suggest that air sac‐driven lung ventilation was primitive for Saurischia. J. Exp. Zool. 311A:611–628, 2009. © 2009 Wiley‐Liss, Inc.

You said you knew of the OSU study.

Right. But as you now realize, the author doesn't even try to refute the fact of avian respiratory systems in dinosaurs. He just argues that birds have different knees to prevent their lungs from collapsing.

Unfortunately, we do not have dinosaurs around today to see.

Fortunately, we do have fossils, showing pneumatized bones, which only occur in birds and theropod dinosaurs.

However, we still have chimps and apes and do not see any of them become bipedal.

There were many bipedal apes, such as Oropithecus, Australopithecines, and so on. No point in denying that, either. Today, there is only one bipedal ape. But of course, there are no more theropod dinosaurs, unless you count birds.

There were dinosaurs that flew. We also know that gravity was less in the past.

Show us your evidence for that. What a weird idea.

However, evos do not believe that either due to uniformitarianism.

Comes down to evidence. What do you have?

So, why does Satan want us to believe that and not what God said?

God said gravity used to be stronger? Show us that. Or are you saying that God said birds aren't dinosaurs. Whatever you think, show us.

Or some seem to be saying that God created evolution and that Genesis is wrong.

If God used evolution, as He uses other natural phenomena, it doesn't mean Genesis is wrong. It means your new revision of Genesis is wrong.

How can Genesis be wrong because it cannot change.

And yet you're telling us to accept your changes.

The macroevolution theory could be gone in the future like the eternal universe.

It's always possible. But given the evidence, things are moving the other way. The last world-class biologist who doubted Darwin's theory, died in the early 1900s.

If you want to convince me birds are dinosaurs, then show me the reverse engineering of a bird back into a dinosaur.

You think evolutionary changes between major groups must be reversible? How did you come to that conclusion?

I thought the guy was so insistent in his belief was because it is another example of macroevolution. We both agree on microevolution.

Perhaps you don't know what "macroevolution" means. It means "evolution of new taxa." Even major creationists groups like ICR and AIG now admit that new species, genera, and even families evolve.

I'm not sure why Satan wants us to think opposite.

You think Satan endorses evolution? I don't see any evidence for it.

I'm learning that it's difficult for people to think Satan exists is because we see him as a guy in a red devil's suit with horns and a pitchfork. Or some tiny bad angel that sits on our shoulder and tempts us to do bad things while another tiny angel sits on the other shoulder and warns us not to do it.

Those are merely creationist ideas. I don't know of any biologists who think like that.
 
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SkyWriting

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When did the steady state theory begin to be taught? Do you know? It was something I remember as the universe was eternal. This contradicted Genesis in the Bible during my early life. Afterward, we found the CMB and how it radiated everywhere, so there was a beginning. What do you believe happened?

All past events are based on Faith. You can TRY to repeat a past event, and assume you have duplicated it scientifically, but you can never be sure you got it exactly right.

A Steady state Comos was popular until data indicates that expansion is not slowing, but speeding up.

Which means no cycling of the big bang over and over.

Some accept that, some don't.

I hold that God is holding on to each electron and keeping each one in it's planned orbit. So nothing in the Cosmos is random.
 
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SkyWriting

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What I do not want is for science to go back to the eternal universe. The big bang theory may have its weaknesses, so some scientists are saying the eternal universe was better.

Science and the past are two seperate things.
Science can formulate a theory and that theory can be tested in the future.
But
you can't test a past event.
 
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Brightmoon

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Allow me to expound on Satan and evolution. Even if evolution is part wrong or all wrong, or a better theory replaces it, what is the big deal? So what if we didn't evolve from proto apes or chimps or birds are not dinosaurs? Is believing in that, in and of itself, a sin? I don't think so. It just means that one of us is wrong. Maybe if you believe in order to go against God or to replace God, then it is a sin. It just means one of us is wrong. The YEC would be wrong in reading the Bible literally for the most part (only part that is interpretative is the prophecies). Their scientific theories could be wrong, too. They have such as with the white hole cosmology. However, I don't think that's the case with macroevolution. It's evolution that is wrong. I think most of the evolution scientists are atheists.

Anyway, why would Satan contradict God? Certainly, it's in his rebellious nature to do so. What could be the problem is that he's misleading those who believe in these things and eventually they'll end up not following Jesus. I don't know the answer to this question, but perhaps it's better to not be so insistent and then find out this is not the case.
it’s actually irrelevant that scientists are atheists ( or not) as they don’t twist the evidence to support any particular holy book. Real scientists stopped doing that completely around Darwin’s time . But the process started earlier around Galileo’s time when people realized that direct observation didn’t match up to holy book writings. The moon doesn’t shine by its own light and the earth isn’t geocentric and stationary . The Bible is simply dead wrong about a lot of natural phenomena . You’re pretty much claiming that acceptance of reality is satanic. Which just seems silly and ignorantly superstitious to me
 
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sfs

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Biology, as well as geology, paleontology, and zoology, are fields where ToE is ingrained. However, the basis of ToE is not fact. It's a theory. What if one of your colleagues disagrees on ToE, i.e. this limb formation didn't lead to that? What would happen to them?
If they had evidence to overthrow evolution? They would be acclaimed as probably the greatest scientist of the century. Are you kidding? Overturning the cornerstone of an entire field of science? Scientists can only dream of that kind of possibility.
 
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jamesbond007

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History never repeats itself. The clock ticks on in one direction.

Yet, people like evo scientists Hawking, Green, Lynde, etc. believe in traveling to the past through a wormhole. They believe in things with no evidence and based on magic and fairy tales. They end up acting like gods.

All past events are based on Faith. You can TRY to repeat a past event, and assume you have duplicated it scientifically, but you can never be sure you got it exactly right.

A Steady state Comos was popular until data indicates that expansion is not slowing, but speeding up.

Which means no cycling of the big bang over and over.

Some accept that, some don't.

I hold that God is holding on to each electron and keeping each one in it's planned orbit. So nothing in the Cosmos is random.

Huh? Your science is weird. As I said, it's the evos side that claims the present is the key to the past.

God said the past was different.

What I am saying about the eternal universe is that we cannot go back to it. Some of the evos wants to go back to it because big bang has problems and has been disproven. It's evolution of the gaps fallacy if you go back.

I agree that there is no expansion and collapse of the universe over and over. That was Einstein's self-admitted greatest mistake.

I'm not sure how you know God is holding on to each electron and keeping it in its planned orbit?. Can you show an example?


What our experiments show is superdeterminism. It backs up predeterminism or God's determinism. However, the evos do not want to believe it because of free will. Richard Dawkins and a lot of atheists say there is no free will. However, we know God gave us free will as limited will.

Proverbs 15:4
A gentle tongue is a tree of life...

Huh?

Science and the past are two seperate things.
Science can formulate a theory and that theory can be tested in the future.
But
you can't test a past event.

Then you just admitted macroevolution cannot be tested. That is what I have been saying as it's just circumstantial evidence.

With God's past doings, we discovered the chicken came before the egg in 2017. It is fact. This follows his word in that he created mature humans, animals, and plants. This is fact now, but the evos do not promote it. They continue to lie about the egg coming first. More evidence for Satan?
 
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jamesbond007

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it’s actually irrelevant that scientists are atheists ( or not) as they don’t twist the evidence to support any particular holy book. Real scientists stopped doing that completely around Darwin’s time . But the process started earlier around Galileo’s time when people realized that direct observation didn’t match up to holy book writings. The moon doesn’t shine by its own light and the earth isn’t geocentric and stationary . The Bible is simply dead wrong about a lot of natural phenomena . You’re pretty much claiming that acceptance of reality is satanic. Which just seems silly and ignorantly superstitious to me

I disagree with your first sentence, and creation scientists do not use circular reasoning to support the Bible theory. They just take the assumptions of what God said because he was the only witness there in the beginning. Also, there is peer review between creation scientists for their own theories. Bottom line is we find science backs up the Bible even though it is not a science book. Science did not back up Darwin, Haeckel, Hutton, nor Lyell. It seems that it is the evo side that makes the findings fit their theory.

Yet, I just disproved your second sentence using Haeckel. He read Darwin's Origin of Species and then made his fake drawings fit his description of how evolution works.

As for Galileo, you are attributing what Pope Gregory and his church leaders -- humans -- deemed to be true and that is the Earth is the center of our universe based on the Bible stating that it was special. The Bible doesn't state it is the center of our universe. What creation scientists have found is the Milky Way galaxy is in the center of our universe in addition to the Earth being special. (It will be very difficult for humans to live outside Earth and be multi-planetary.) They discovered our universe is bounded, so it does have a center. Another finding that evolution contradicts; they need a boundless universe and no center to fit the big bang. It's more evidence for Satan. I'm not sure what Satan means to you and whether you believe he exists, but he exists. There can be no doubt from the evidence. What I do not know is what it all means in the overall scope of Christianity? In that regards, this will probably be the last time I bring all the contradictions up. It is sufficient to believe in what the Bible states about Satan.

As for your statements about the Bible being dead wrong, I do not think I can convince you otherwise. That may be the greatest reason for this thread. I am trying to get believers to realize that Satan exists and how he operates with his rebellious nature. God, the Bible, and I are in the minority when it comes to what is taught at schools and universities and what is shown in text books and at museums and science institutions. The evos have taken over with their fake science. There are some students of evolution who end up questioning and not accepting evolution. They are the ones who can truly think for themselves and whom I pin the hopes on the lives of future generations.

Like I said, I probably will not argue for the existence of Satan. It becomes a very difficult and convoluted subject as it goes against accepted science by consensus and the creation scientists have been eliminated from peer reviews and science. Satan again wins masquerading as the angel of light. All I can do is hope and pray that believers who believe in evolution do not get misled.
 
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jamesbond007

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If they had evidence to overthrow evolution? They would be acclaimed as probably the greatest scientist of the century. Are you kidding? Overturning the cornerstone of an entire field of science? Scientists can only dream of that kind of possibility.

Evolution is simply overthrown if one does not believe in it. There is no practical use for it. If someone finds how our limbs develop, then it should be something that could stand on its own. It doesn't mean that it applies to common ancestor or how a species is evolving into another species.

There I just overthrew evolution. Just don't use it in science. Ignore it like many people ignore Satan. Get lost, Satan.
 
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SkyWriting

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With God's past doings, we discovered the chicken came before the egg in 2017. It is fact. This follows his word in that he created mature humans, animals, and plants. This is fact now, but the evos do not promote it. They continue to lie about the egg coming first. More evidence for Satan?

Satan should not get the credit.
 
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SkyWriting

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it’s actually irrelevant that scientists are atheists ( or not) as they don’t twist the evidence to support any particular holy book. Real scientists stopped doing that completely around Darwin’s time . But the process started earlier around Galileo’s time when people realized that direct observation didn’t match up to holy book writings. The moon doesn’t shine by its own light and the earth isn’t geocentric and stationary . The Bible is simply dead wrong about a lot of natural phenomena . You’re pretty much claiming that acceptance of reality is satanic. Which just seems silly and ignorantly superstitious to me

Those are simply technical details. The moon lights the night sky quite regular.
The earth is practically stationary. Meaning, for all practical purposes, it doesn't even spin. And every mass in the Cosmos orbits every other mass. So nothing in the Cosmos is stationary.
 
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Charles Kanyuga

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Satan does not care whether you prove his existence or not but he care that we are sons of God. He want to preach provable points to you on how you may not be a son of God. Do not waste too much energy on debates that adds no value to your position, stand tall like Jesus and say I can only do what I see my father do.
 
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Brightmoon

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Those are simply technical details. The moon lights the night sky quite regular.
The earth is practically stationary. Meaning, for all practical purposes, it doesn't even spin. And every mass in the Cosmos orbits every other mass. So nothing in the Cosmos is stationary.
you’ve obviously never really looked at the moon . Half the time it shows up in the day time. When I was a kid I used to believe that moon-only-lights-up-the-night fiction too ;until I realized that I was looking at a nearly full moon during the day. I almost fell down in shock. Direct observation trumped “received wisdom”in that case. Getting information from the Bible about nature is like that . The Bible simply doesn’t have accurate info about nature.

.You can also watch the earth spinning . Just look at a shadow that’s on the ground that has a straight edge like a building edge or a lamppost for about 2 minutes . The ancients would have known this as they were more dependent on solar time and lunar cycles than we are.
 
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Brightmoon

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James , James Bond , I gave you that info repeatedly. Limbs form by using the most of the same genetic toolbox that forms body patterning from head to anus. All bilaterians use most of the same genes . Your misunderstanding of and ignorance about evolution is not a disproof of it. SMH
 
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