Penal substitution?

Well God couldn't forsake Christ. That's where we enter into potential Trinitarian problems. Since the Trinity is a constant and eternal communion of love, one cannot forsake another.

zoidar said:

A thought: If God had completely forsaken Jesus on the cross. How could Jesus then pray to him?

Luke 23:34
But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves.

Luke 23:46
And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, “Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT.” Having said this, He breathed His last.

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I don’t think that was a response from what I quoted, but it is relevant to other posts.

As @Davidnic pointed out Psalm 22 “plays” out literally and physically during the Passion of Christ.

There are a few theories of what happened when Jesus Spoke Matthew 27:46

Among them, as per the Psalm, the suffering and anguish Jesus suffered in His humanity (which includes a human soul by His One Person) the feeling of separation as the Psalmist lamented. This would not be a hopeless lament as we immediately see in the Psalm and in most psalms a hope and knowledge God always hears and does answer.

When Jesus said “it is Finished” He confirms He has accomplished the will of the Father.

Another way to look at this. The Divine Logos God the Son before the Incarnation has a face to face relationship with the Father. When God the Son takes human flesh in the Incarnation, we see Jesus praying to the Father. The relationship was not face to face.

redleghunter said:

As @Davidnic pointed out Psalm 22 “plays” out literally and physically during the Passion of Christ.

There are a few theories of what happened when Jesus Spoke Matthew 27:46

Among them, as per the Psalm, the suffering and anguish Jesus suffered in His humanity (which includes a human soul by His One Person) the feeling of separation as the Psalmist lamented. This would not be a hopeless lament as we immediately see in the Psalm and in most psalms a hope and knowledge God always hears and does answer.

When Jesus said “it is Finished” He confirms He has accomplished the will of the Father.

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It is a 'todah' psalm as explained here: Library : The Todah Sacrifice as Pattern for the Eucharist

It is a thanksgiving sacrifice which has huge Christological and Eucharistic significance. For the most meat on this follow Joseph Ratzinger (Benedict XVI) in his discussions on the word 'toda'/'todah'. And his book 'Feast of Faith'. I have not confirmed but it may also be in his 'Jesus of Nazareth: book II. I will be reading that later this year.

I remember reading Camus' 'The Fall' where he noted that he thought it really was Jesus ultimate despairing of any hope. Then not long afterwards I was introduced to the 'todah' idea, that Jesus quoted the initial line of the psalm, as was custom, to sort of import the whole thing into consideration. That Idea has since captivated me and I don't worry about the criticism of Camus any longer. I still like Camus, and 'The Fall' is a great book, but it doesn't worry me as it did for a while.

zoidar said:

This question about the Father forsaken Jesus. Isn't there a danger in separating Jesus human nature with his divine nature, not knowing what is from his human nature and what is from his divine nature? As we speak Jesus still have both right? A human and divine nature?

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Why we should treat Matthew 27:46 with caution but awe. What we see in the Gospel accounts is Psalm 22 unfolding. Which makes the psalm prophetic. We should be in awe of that.

What was happening between God the Father and God the Son we can try to understand but I would not take as far as some theologians and also would not dismiss searching.

When I asked both a Roman Catholic and a Lutheran “who died on the cross” (it was not a gotcha but curiosity) they both replied “Jesus Christ.” I agree that is the right answer.

And for any theologian of any stripe who claims after Jesus said “It is Finished” that somehow suffered the torments of hell our part are dead wrong. Jesus proclaimed where He would be that day. In Paradise.

redleghunter said:

Thank you for the response. Could you please provide links to the quotes you provided as I have above? Thank you in advance.

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Here is a pdf for the Institutes of Christian religion, you will find that reference on page 318

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion.pdf

I'm not sure the one from Luther is available as a primary source online. It is cited as a secondary source here:

Understanding Jesus’ Cry of Abandonment | Creed Code Cult

redleghunter said:

How do you handle Isaiah 53? Does it display a Messiah who suffers for our sins?

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Christ absolutely suffered for our sins. The question is who demanded the suffering -- God or sinful man? In the Catholic view, God is not interested in Christ's suffering, he's interested in his obedience to holiness. And that obedience causes him to suffer for our sins because we inflict our sins upon him.

Isaiah 53 is clear it is man who rejected Christ:
He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not

And we 'esteemed' that he had been rejected by God. Those looking on viewed him as being rejected by God. That doesn't mean he was:

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted

redleghunter said:

I think there is a prevalent idea out there which puts the Father in the light of a “cosmic child abuser,”.

When the focus should be on God’s Justice being satisfied.

Which evokes the question of how that was accomplished.

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It was accomplished because right order was restored. Christ returned mankind to obedience to God.

"Justice" is a term whose meaning changes with Protestantism. Look at the etymology of the word and how it originally means "right order" but between 1400-1700 you start to pick up a different sense that includes punishment and vengeance.

Meaning "right order, equity, the rewarding to everyone of that which is his due" in English is from late 14c. The Old French word had widespread senses including also "uprightness, equity, vindication of right, court of justice, judge." In English c. 1400-1700 sometimes also with a vindictive sense "infliction of punishment, legal vengeance."

justice | Origin and meaning of justice by Online Etymology Dictionary

Bishop Barron has a good clip on that here:

https://www.wordonfire.org/resource...ross-necessary-faith-seeks-understanding/122/

redleghunter said:

We know from “It is Finished” that indeed His work was complete.

With Matthew 27:46 showing the complete anguish of Christ’s human suffering. It was at that point He longed for the face to face intimacy He had before the foundations of the earth.

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That intimacy between Christ and the Father was never lost. To believe such would be to deny the Trinity wherein there is an eternal, unchangeable communion between the three persons.

Does Christ feel abandoned? In his human nature, he absolutely could. But just because someone feels abandoned by God doesn't mean they have been.

That is why his quoting Psalm 22 is so important. There is incredible tension in that Psalm that goes between a person who feels abandoned but yet still has faith in God and is calling out to Him. And then there is a key verse which changes everything -- verse 24. "For he did not despise or abhor the affliction of the afflicted; he did not hide his face from me, but heard when I cried to him."

The Psalm clearly tells us that the Father did not turn his back on Christ, and from that point on the Psalm turns into a glorious hymn of praise.

narnia59 said:

Here is a pdf for the Institutes of Christian religion, you will find that reference on page 318

http://www.ntslibrary.com/PDF Books/Calvin Institutes of Christian Religion.pdf

I'm not sure the one from Luther is available as a primary source online. It is cited as a secondary source here:

Understanding Jesus’ Cry of Abandonment | Creed Code Cult

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Thanks. Read this version and another.

Still don’t see where Calvin indicates Jesus suffered in hell. In fact he goes to a great extent to say the opposite. All suffering on Jesus part for us was done on the cross.

narnia59 said:

Christ absolutely suffered for our sins. The question is who demanded the suffering -- God or sinful man? In the Catholic view, God is not interested in Christ's suffering, he's interested in his obedience to holiness. And that obedience causes him to suffer for our sins because we inflict our sins upon him.

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What was being satisfied? Is it not the wages for sin which is death?

narnia59 said:

Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted

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Amen. Jesus fulfilled the role of both the goat who was slain to atone for sins. And the role of the scapegoat who takes the sins far away. Aaron and his sons laid their hands on both goats.

narnia59 said:

It was accomplished because right order was restored. Christ returned mankind to obedience to God.

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How exactly was this accomplished? Mankind continues in wickedness.

narnia59 said:

"Justice" is a term whose meaning changes with Protestantism. Look at the etymology of the word and how it originally means "right order" but between 1400-1700 you start to pick up a different sense that includes punishment and vengeance.

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Well St Paul says Jesus is both the Just and Justifier. The wages (penalty) for sin is death and Christ did indeed suffer and die to pay that wage/penalty.

Christ was our substitute right?

narnia59 said:

Meaning "right order, equity, the rewarding to everyone of that which is his due" in English is from late 14c.

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What is due to the unrepentant Law breaker?

narnia59 said:

That intimacy between Christ and the Father was never lost. To believe such would be to deny the Trinity wherein there is an eternal, unchangeable communion between the three persons.

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No it would not deny the Trinity.

In Jesus Christ, God the Son all the fullness of the Deity dwells in bodily form. That explains the Truly God and truly human Jesus Christ. Accomplished at the Incarnation right?

Then Jesus says this during the High Priestly Prayer:

John 17:

1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all humanity, so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. 4I have glorified You on earth by accomplishing the work You gave Me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

redleghunter said:

Thanks. Read this version and another.

Still don’t see where Calvin indicates Jesus suffered in hell. In fact he goes to a great extent to say the opposite. All suffering on Jesus part for us was done on the cross.

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You will have to point out where he says differently. Maybe he changed his mind somewhere along the way.

Here's an excerpt of just the relevant topic.

Center for Reformed Theology and Apologetics

If you continue reading section 10 for example, he says that "By these words he means that Christ was put in place of evildoers as surety and pledge — submitting himself even as the accused — to bear and suffer all the punishments that they ought to have sustained. All — with this one exception: "He could not be held by the pangs of death" [Acts 2:24 p.]. No wonder, then, if he is said to have descended into hell, for he suffered the death that, God in his wrath had inflicted upon the wicked! Those who — on the ground that it is absurd to put after his burial what preceded it — say that the order is reversed in this way are making a very trifling and ridiculous objection. The point is that the Creed sets forth what Christ suffered in the sight of men, and then appositely speaks of that invisible and incomprehensible judgment which he underwent in the sight of God in order that we might know not only that Christ’s body was given as the price of our redemption, but that he paid a greater and more excellent price in suffering in his soul the terrible torments of a condemned and forsaken man.

Calvin clearly believed that Christ suffered the experience of hell and to view that happened while he was on the cross and not afterwards is a 'trifling and ridiculous' objection. He stuck with the order of the creed -- he was crucified, died, buried and then descended into hell. And in section 9 he rejects other views of what 'descended into hell' would mean other than a literal time spent in hell.

redleghunter said:

What was being satisfied? Is it not the wages for sin which is death?

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redleghunter said:

Well St Paul says Jesus is both the Just and Justifier. The wages (penalty) for sin is death and Christ did indeed suffer and die to pay that wage/penalty.

Christ was our substitute right?

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Indeed, the wages of sin is death. But who is the paymaster? Who are we employed under when we sin to draw those wages? It's not God.

If you notice in Genesis 2:17 when telling Adam to not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, God doesn't tell him that if he does, God will kill him. God is not the payer of that wage. He simply tells him that he will die. He will have separated himself from Life itself, placed himself under the bondage and employment of Satan. Satan is whose service we are under when we sin, and he is the payer of that wage, not God.

Jesus is our substitute in that he offers his obedience to the Father in place of mankind's disobedience. And this is not so we can remain disobedient but in order that we can join to him by faith and also become obedient.

He is not our substitute in death. For one thing, in case you missed it, we still die.

redleghunter said:

How exactly was this accomplished? Mankind continues in wickedness.

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Those who are truly in Christ do exactly as Scripture commands us to -- resist sin and strive for holiness. We do not continue in wickedness. It is indeed a struggle, but we also believe that we can do all things in Christ who strengthen us. By grace, we become sanctified and receive at the end, eternal life. This is the restoration of the right order, i.e. justice.

redleghunter said:

What is due to the unrepentant Law breaker?

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An unrepentant law breaker will face the natural consequence of sin, receive the wages of Satan his master, and spend eternity in eternal death, i.e. separation from God. In other words, hell.