LDS Swedish Mormons Began Leaving LDS!

dzheremi

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What a great guy to have as mayor. :rolleyes: I don't care how unlearned he supposedly was; he probably shouldn't have been in office at any level if he didn't know the basic contours of the law, or what individual very important words mean in the text of the laws he would be governing by.

If go to a "Store Closing" sale and start destroying the merchandise, what do you think will happen to you? Do you think it would make any difference if you said to the officers who came to arrest you "Sorry, I thought 'closure' meant 'destroy'"?
 
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Ironhold

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What a great guy to have as mayor. :rolleyes: I don't care how unlearned he supposedly was; he probably shouldn't have been in office at any level if he didn't know the basic contours of the law, or what individual very important words mean in the text of the laws he would be governing by.

Don't forget that the original order to deal with the press came from the city council.

City Council -> Mayor -> Bailiff.

That's the order the chain went.

If go to a "Store Closing" sale and start destroying the merchandise, what do you think will happen to you? Do you think it would make any difference if you said to the officers who came to arrest you "Sorry, I thought 'closure' meant 'destroy'"?

Big difference in what we're talking about here.
 
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dzheremi

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Not really. The point is that saying "Joseph just didn't understand the law" doesn't matter when his 'misunderstanding' leads to him breaking or advocating that others break the law as it actually is.

I think Hanlon's Razor applies here.
 
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Ironhold

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Not really. The point is that saying "Joseph just didn't understand the law" doesn't matter when his 'misunderstanding' leads to him breaking or advocating that others break the law as it actually is.

I think Hanlon's Razor applies here.

This compares to Walters, who knew or at least should have known that what he was doing was illegal.
 
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mmksparbud

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This compares to Walters, who knew or at least should have known that what he was doing was illegal.

Should have known?---But not, of course JS---he, despite being a prophet of God---shouldn't have known what he did was wrong!! We are not so stupid as to think that the destruction of someone else's property is wrong is not something that JS couldn't have known!!!
 
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He is the way

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That describes a false god. Why do you deny the Holy Spirit?

Do you also believe that Joseph Smith was a false prophet? Are you still a Mormon?

D&C 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
23 A man may receive the Holy Ghost, and it may descend upon him and not tarry with him.

Here then, is eternal life-to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power….
Joseph Fielding Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 342-347.

Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4

The Gods plan the creation of the earth and all life thereon—Their plans for the six days of creation are set forth.

1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.

2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.

(NOTE: Mormonism teaches that every god has a spirit and a physical body, except your "Holy Ghost.")

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

I think Mormonism confuses you. When you talk about it, it's as if you weren't taught what the rest of LDS were taught.
The word Elohim is plural:

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

However for us there is one God, the Father:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:6)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 
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mmksparbud

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The word Elohim is plural:

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

However for us there is one God, the Father:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:6)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

There is one God--the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Any other believe is not of God.
 
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He is the way

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proof of his use of sorcery.

"iscoveries have confirmed the reality of the 1826 pre-trial examination of ‘Joseph Smith The Glass looker’ before Albert Neely, a justice of the peace." (The Creation of the Book of Mormon, LaMar Petersen, Freethinker Press, 1998, pp. 29-32)

"The phrase ‘Glass looker’ appearing on Mr. Neely’s bill is the precise terminology preferred by Joseph Smith himself to describe his crystal gazing occupation and is the same that Mr. Benton adopted five years later to speak of Smith’s use of a peep-stone or glass placed in a hat, which he employed when hired to hunt for hidden treasures. The bill of Constable Philip De Zeng gives further historical evidence and details concerning this trial, by listing:


(click to enlarge)
Should Moses have been convicted of using magic for talking to a burning bush? Was Aaron convicted of sorcery for using the Urim and the Thummim?
 
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He is the way

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There is one God--the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Any other believe is not of God.
(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
 
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mmksparbud

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Should Moses have been convicted of using magic for talking to a burning bush? Was Aaron convicted of sorcery for using the Urim and the Thummim?


Moses didn't dig for treasure using magic looking glass. JS and his family were into the occult before he got his supposed first vision. their buried treasure hunts had nothing to do with God.
 
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mmksparbud

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(New Testament | John 10:34 - 35)

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Replay that statement that has been shown you countless times on what this actually means---you're pretending that you forgot?? It's truly monotonous talking to you---broken record of same proven false theories and misinterpretation of verses. There is ONE GOD!! GOD THE FATHER SON AND HOLY SPIRIT.
Your god is some anemic little grandkid.
 
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dzheremi

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The word Elohim is plural:

(Old Testament | Genesis 1:26)

26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

However for us there is one God, the Father:

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 8:6)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I hate to quote myself, but if you'll look again at a post I made in reply to the last time you made this bad, wrong, silly argument from the word "Elohim", you'll see that this completely does not work: LDS - LDS Say "Everyone gets what they desire"

Please stop making this particular argument. It's very much malformed, and very easily shown to be so.
 
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He is the way

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Moses didn't dig for treasure using magic looking glass. JS and his family were into the occult before he got his supposed first vision. their buried treasure hunts had nothing to do with God.
Did Aaron use magic:

(Old Testament | Exodus 7:10)

10 ¶ And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

(Old Testament | Exodus 7:20)

20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

Joseph Smith persuaded Stowell to give up treasure hunting.
 
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He is the way

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I hate to quote myself, but if you'll look again at a post I made in reply to the last time you made this bad, wrong, silly argument from the word "Elohim", you'll see that this completely does not work: LDS - LDS Say "Everyone gets what they desire"

Please stop making this particular argument. It's very much malformed, and very easily shown to be so.
I do not agree with your interpretation. Here is the correct scripture with the correct interpretation:
Genesis 1:26 Hebrew Text Analysis
 
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mmksparbud

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Did Aaron use magic:

(Old Testament | Exodus 7:10)

10 ¶ And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.

(Old Testament | Exodus 7:20)

20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

Joseph Smith persuaded Stowell to give up treasure hunting.

It wasn't Aaron and Moses---it was the power of God---JS and his family used the occult long before his supposed first vision. None of it was of God.
 
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mmksparbud

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I do not agree with your interpretation. Here is the correct scripture with the correct interpretation:
Genesis 1:26 Hebrew Text Analysis

26
and~he~will~SAY(V) (וַיֹּאמֶר / wai'yo'mer) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) we~will~DO(V) (נַעֲשֶׂה / na'a'seh) HUMAN (אָדָם / a'dam) in~IMAGE~us (בְּצַלְמֵנוּ / bê'tsal'mey'nu) like~LIKENESS~us (כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ / kid'mu'tey'nu) and~he~did~RULE(V) (וְיִרְדּוּ / wê'yir'du) in~FISH (בִדְגַת / vid'gat) the~SEA (הַיָּם / hai'yam) and~in~FLYER (וּבְעוֹף / uv'oph) the~SKY~s2 (הַשָּׁמַיִם / ha'sha'ma'yim) and~in~the~BEAST (וּבַבְּהֵמָה / u'va'be'hey'mah) and~in~ALL (וּבְכָל / uv'khol) the~LAND (הָאָרֶץ / ha'a'rets) and~in~ALL (וּבְכָל / uv'khol) the~TREADER (הָרֶמֶשׂ / ha're'mes) the~TREAD(V)~ing(ms) (הָרֹמֵשׂ / ha'ro'meys) UPON (עַל / al) the~LAND (הָאָרֶץ / ha'a'rets)

RMT: and Elohiym said, we will make a human in our image, like our likeness, and he will rule in the fish of the sea and in the flyers of the skies, and in the beast, and in all the land, and in all the treaders treading upon the land,

Elohiym: (masc.: אלוהים / e'lo'him) MT: POWER~s RMT: Powers. Strong's: #0430

God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
 
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He is the way

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It wasn't Aaron and Moses---it was the power of God---JS and his family used the occult long before his supposed first vision. None of it was of God.
It was not of the occult. Joseph Smith was 15 at the time of his first vision. So what are you basing your evidence on?
 
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mmksparbud

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It was not of the occult. Joseph Smith was 15 at the time of his first vision. So what are you basing your evidence on?

Oh, just cut it out---it's in every history book, Mormon and non-Mormon. It's glossed over in Mormon books, of course. The parents taught him. Quite pretending they didn't.
 
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He is the way

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26
and~he~will~SAY(V) (וַיֹּאמֶר / wai'yo'mer) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) we~will~DO(V) (נַעֲשֶׂה / na'a'seh) HUMAN (אָדָם / a'dam) in~IMAGE~us (בְּצַלְמֵנוּ / bê'tsal'mey'nu) like~LIKENESS~us (כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ / kid'mu'tey'nu) and~he~did~RULE(V) (וְיִרְדּוּ / wê'yir'du) in~FISH (בִדְגַת / vid'gat) the~SEA (הַיָּם / hai'yam) and~in~FLYER (וּבְעוֹף / uv'oph) the~SKY~s2 (הַשָּׁמַיִם / ha'sha'ma'yim) and~in~the~BEAST (וּבַבְּהֵמָה / u'va'be'hey'mah) and~in~ALL (וּבְכָל / uv'khol) the~LAND (הָאָרֶץ / ha'a'rets) and~in~ALL (וּבְכָל / uv'khol) the~TREADER (הָרֶמֶשׂ / ha're'mes) the~TREAD(V)~ing(ms) (הָרֹמֵשׂ / ha'ro'meys) UPON (עַל / al) the~LAND (הָאָרֶץ / ha'a'rets)

RMT: and Elohiym said, we will make a human in our image, like our likeness, and he will rule in the fish of the sea and in the flyers of the skies, and in the beast, and in all the land, and in all the treaders treading upon the land,

Elohiym: (masc.: אלוהים / e'lo'him) MT: POWER~s RMT: Powers. Strong's: #0430

God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
And just as I said Elohim is plural and they are one God in purpose:
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 12:12 - 27)

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 
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dzheremi

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I do not agree with your interpretation. Here is the correct scripture with the correct interpretation:
Genesis 1:26 Hebrew Text Analysis

What you have here is a different text, so of course it's going to lead to a different interpretation, if you look at it in isolation as you are doing! That's not a problem of "My interpretation" (since I didn't interpret anything; what I presented was already glossed, I merely pointed out some features of the language that make the Mormon interpretation obviously false), but of the fact that we are dealing with a different base text. What I presented was this:

310953_da2fe84fc629971f7aec997ebd952027.jpg

^ This is Genesis 1:27 -- you presented Genesis 1:26, which has entirely different grammatical constructs to deal with. So don't pretend like I've "misinterpreted" something we weren't talking about until right now. That deceptive and kind of insulting. It's a different verse.

In 1:26, the relevant nouns end in -nū (cf. the above image of the Hebrew with gloss, where there are no forms that end that way), which I know from already speaking Arabic (which is also a Semitic language) is the equivalent of the Arabic enclitic (affixed) plural form for the first person dual and plural, -nā (نا-), so yes, those forms would be "Our", rather than "His". What this has to do with anything is beyond me, though. If you want to talk about 1:26, then why don't we do so without separating it from 1:27, since obviously they form one thematic event (i.e., God doesn't just announce that He is going to do this and then not do it)? After all, it is certainly fine to say all the things said in 1:26 about God's plan to do this, but when He gets to it, it still says in the following verse "HE (singular) created" "in HIS image (singular)", and so on.

So, if this is how you are going to interpret it, I suppose it's fair to ask: where did the 'other gods' of the earlier verse go, then? Did they immediately skedaddle when it came time to do the work of creating things? I don't want to make any Mormons mad by putting this out there, but that idea would seem to contradict the Mormon creation narrative whereby creation was a matter of others doing the work and going back to 'report' to God the Father. Hmmm.
 
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