The Anathemas against The Image Breakers from The Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787 A.D.

Gregory Thompson

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Moses never commanded Israel to bow to the bronze serpent. "So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:9).

God never said the bronze serpent or the carved cherubim represented him either. My contention isn't images in and of themselves, but the abuse of them and the representation of the Godhead. Clearly, the second commandment is not only against idolatry, but the creation of an image that even represents any member of the Godhead.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4
That reminds me, when Jesus said about Him being raised up as the snake in the wilderness, the snake was on a pole too. And by His wounds we are healed.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Moses never commanded Israel to bow to the bronze serpent. "So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:9).

God never said the bronze serpent or the carved cherubim represented him either. My contention isn't images in and of themselves, but the abuse of them and the representation of the Godhead. Clearly, the second commandment is not only against idolatry, but the creation of an image that even represents any member of the Godhead.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4
You are correct about the bowing, my mistake.

The Cherubim are things of heaven are they not?

However since the Godhead isn't expressly talked about in the OT, I hardly think we can compare. God did take on the Image of a man, making himself a physical image. He humbled himself to take on our form and he remains in that form.
 
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anna ~ grace

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• Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.)

Session 1

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea



Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to The Image Breakers.


Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.


Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.


Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.


Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.


Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.


Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.


Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.


Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church has at any time sanctioned idols.


Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.


Seventh Ecumenical Council - OrthodoxWiki


sundayorthodoxy.jpg


icon-of-the-triumph-of-orthodoxy.jpg

Hurrah! Thank you, Jude!
 
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Jonaitis

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Gregory Thompson

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However since the Godhead isn't expressly talked about in the OT,
I recall illustrating the trinity all throughout the Old Testament once, when some Jehovah Witnesses came to talk. I avoided the gospel of John since they had all sorts of rebuttals prepared for it.

But yeah, it's totally hidden, it's hard to remove all the references even when a group tries.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Interesting.

But overall around the world where the church was, was it like that too?

Just thinking, as that seems to be the only reason why icons of the gospel story would remain relevant to the point of defending them in a council.

Byzantium was the seat of 4 of 5 pentarchal sees (the last being Rome). The main point of iconography is in fact not simply to educate, but to sanctify the sight. Only in the Apostolic Churches can people worship with all five senses. Incense for the nose, Gospel and Chant for the ears, Eucharist for the taste, Icons for the touch and sight...
 
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Jonaitis

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However since the Godhead isn't expressly talked about in the OT, I hardly think we can compare. God did take on the Image of a man, making himself a physical image. He humbled himself to take on our form and he remains in that form.

In light of the New Testament, this passage refers to the Godhead, since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Byzantium was the seat of 4 of 5 pentarchal sees (the last being Rome). The main point of iconography is in fact not simply to educate, but to sanctify the sight. Only in the Apostolic Churches can people worship with all five senses. Incense for the nose, Gospel and Chant for the ears, Eucharist for the taste, Icons for the touch and sight...
That's a smart way of doing it, contemporary church movements don't like this idea, but it represents a total replacement therapy from the old life into the new.
 
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Jonaitis

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That reminds me, when Jesus said about Him being raised up as the snake in the wilderness, the snake was on a pole too. And by His wounds we are healed.

Yes, the bronze serpent was a type and shadow.
 
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The second commandment isn't about images in and of themselves, it is about representations of any member of the Godhead.

Exactly, which is why the commandment, just as the sabbath commandment, no longer applies to Christians (edit, when I say no longer apply, I mean the theological point of them) . Christ was the fulfillment of these things. He rose on Sunday, and he became flesh that could be painted. Why else would he leave an image such as the Image of Edessa?
 
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That's a smart way of doing it, contemporary church movements don't like this idea, but it represents a total replacement therapy from the old life into the new.

Church is meant to be an entire change of being. How much evil thought can the imagination get away with while the eyes are closed or undistracted? How many times I have focused solely on an Icon of Christ in Church so that my eyes don't wander or my imagination get carried away with worldly things.
 
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Jonaitis

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Exactly, which is why the commandment, just as the sabbath commandment, no longer applies to Christians. Christ was the fulfillment of these things. He rose on Sunday, and he became flesh that could be painted. Why else would he leave an image such as the Image of Edessa?

It appears that your argument now is that the second commandment no longer applies because we are in the New Covenant? So can I murder too? Can I have other gods beside him?

The Sabbath still applies, it is a creation ordinance, not just a Mosaic requirement.

If Jesus is truly man, then he is also truly God. You cannot represent Jesus without violating the second commandment.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4
 
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☦Marius☦

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I recall illustrating the trinity all throughout the Old Testament once, when some Jehovah Witnesses came to talk. I avoided the gospel of John since they had all sorts of rebuttals prepared for it.

But yeah, it's totally hidden, it's hard to remove all the references even when a group tries.

In light of the New Testament, this passage refers to the Godhead, since God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Of course it is easy for us now who have the NT to go back and see references to the Trinity. But I think if you didn't have the NT you would have been just as ignorant as the Jews as to who the Word actually is. This is the main problem with many Christians now, they don't respect the councils because they don't know about the problems of the heresies they defeated. Why? Because its all water under the bridge as Nicene Christianity is mainstream.
 
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It appears that your argument now is that the second commandment no longer applies because we are in the New Covenant? So can I murder too? Can I have other gods beside him?

The Sabbath still applies, it is a creation ordinance, not just a Mosaic requirement.

If Jesus is truly man, then he is also truly God. You cannot represent Jesus without violating the second commandment.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4

They are still valid, just differently. The Father and Holy Spirit remain invisible and in Church canon it is forbidden to represent them. What I am saying is that Christ fulfilled the purpose of these commandments (these two specifically), and therefore their original context is different for Christians.

Do you keep Saturday worship and rest?
 
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Jonaitis

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Oh it still applies. The Father and Holy Spirit remain invisible and in Church canon it is forbidden to represent them. What I am saying is that Christ fulfilled the purpose of these commandments (these two specifically), and therefore their original context is different for Christians.

Interesting. Why is it forbidden to represent the Father and the Holy Spirit, but not the Son? If they are same God, the consistency doesn't make sense. It sounds like in order to justify it, we must separate the natures from the person in our minds.
 
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Interesting. Why is it forbidden to represent the Father and the Holy Spirit, but not the Son? If they are same God, the consistency doesn't make sense. It sounds like in order to justify it, we must separate the natures.

Because the Son became incarnate, has the nature of Man, and could be seen without killing the person who saw him. Are you implying that the Father and Spirit also have the God/Man hypostatic union?
 
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Jonaitis

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Do you keep Saturday worship and rest?

I am still on the fence. I am convicted of Sunday, and remain a Sunday Sabbatarian, but I am open to the idea that it should be Friday evening to Saturday evening.
 
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I am still on the fence. I am convicted of Sunday, and remain a Sunday Sabbatarian, but I am open to the idea that it should be Friday evening to Saturday evening.

To your credit. I actually think it should be observed as well, but I do not necessarily think it has the same hold that it did for the Jews within the law.
 
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Because the Son became incarnate, has the nature of Man, and could be seen without killing the person who saw him.

Yet still, you cannot depict his manhood without implying that his divinity is therein represented. Jesus is truly man and truly God, you cannot depict one nature and not the other. In the picture, you are representing him in his person...right?
 
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