The Anathemas against The Image Breakers from The Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787 A.D.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Is your point God introduced confusion?

I’m having to respond to 4 people at once here.

I posted the verse in Exodus to show that God said to create Golden Cherubs in Exodus. That was the point.


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☦Marius☦

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I'm sorry, but to my uninitiated-to-Orthox Theology, this all just seems like a matter of mental gymnastics vs. the Word of God. Your overview of the defense of Iconography doesn't recommend it very well to me.

If I might be so bold as to bend the rules a bit, the quote in your signature seems to be somewhat at odds with the air of benevolence and restraint you seem to portray in your post. I say this only because it seems almost certain to call your purpose into question.
I don't understand how it required mental gymnastics. Its simple. In the OT God was not incarnate and therefore not representable through matter, and after the incarnation God was made flesh and therefore representable.

As for my quote,

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” [A.D. 110]."

How exactly is this controversial to you? St. Ignatius, student of the Apostle John was authoritative as a Bishop, and at the time was fighting multiple sects such as the Gnostics, as well as those who did not partake in communion. Just because I don't believe in blasting people on an online forum with Anathemas, doesn't mean I don't believe there are set truths and consequences for going against those truths.


Isn't it though?
No, it isn't. Because the 7th council had as much to do with Christology as the rest. To deny that Christ can be depicted is to deny that he was incarnate and visible, at least from the eyes of the fathers at the time. As for veneration, it is hardly easy to tell people they cannot venerate Icons when the Icons stream myrrh, heal the sick, and show people visions.
 
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☦Marius☦

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You made the mistake I thought someone would and I should have made it clearer. I did not say it was not available in churches, cathedrals and monasteries . I said it was not available to the general public.
Source? The problem was the masses being uneducated in Latin and the Church being hesitant to translate it into the vernacular for theological reasons. Not some vast conspiracy to keep the word away from the people.

Not the native language of most Europeans. But over all the issue was an issue of control of Christianity by kings and emperors to secure their own interests rather than the promotion of Christianity. Just exactly what you see in communist countries today. The dictators create an official state church. Not to promote Christianity but to control it. To step outside the official church is to commit treason against the dictator.
Communists had to first wipe out the native Christians before they set up their false churches that are not usually in communion with the Original. This is hardly comparable to the early or middle ages. Even in the Eastern Roman Empire the Patriarch of the Church had the right to go against the Emperor's decisions both Politically and Religiously.

Now I know many nations for time periods would seek to buck the system. That is what I meant when I said the powers that existed would eventually militarily conquer those peoples. Because a nation next door to your kingdom that is has the general public reading Bibles is a threat to your rule.
Who? Again provide a source. Who in the 7th century persecuted people for reading scriptures readily available in Greek?

Shoot, don't even try to justify that world. My wife and I went to a Greek festival last fall and attended the question and answering session in the Greek orthodox church. The priest was asked about all the pictures, tapestries and stained glass. His straight forward answer was: "You have to understand that for thousands of years people didn't have Bibles. They didn't come to church with a Bible under their arm. So we had all this to help them.
A true statement. The "Bible" wasn't around until fairly recently. What the people did have was the Holy Scriptures, and access to them not only every day in services, but also could have copies made, or memorize them themselves as many did. Many Greek Laypeople would simply write down what was read during services. Icons were there for people not educated enough to read, so that they could remember Christ's life easily.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Is it not interesting the first 6 ecumenical councils addressed mainly topics of Christology and the Trinity? And the 7th dealt with images?
The incarnation of Christ into human flesh making God representable to human eyes IS a Chronological issue.
 
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Jonaitis

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No, it isn't. Because the 7th council had as much to do with Christology as the rest. To deny that Christ can be depicted is to deny that he was incarnate and visible, at least from the eyes of the fathers at the time. As for veneration, it is hardly easy to tell people they cannot venerate Icons when the Icons stream myrrh, heal the sick, and show people visions.

Well, denying the depiction of Christ doesn't lead to denying he was incarnate and visible in the flesh. I don't know where you got that from.

Really, if you believe Christ's person is God, then any representation made by human imagination is a violation of the second commandment.
 
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hedrick

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Personally I consider images and icons a gray area. Not so much pictures used in Sunday School classrooms, but images used around altars or worship. I know Catholics and Orthodox don't intend idolatry, but it does seem pretty close. However I'm willing to accept their intent, so I consider Catholic and Orthodox (although not the participants in this council) brothers and sisters in Christ.

What I'm not willing to accept is cursing people who take a stricter position. As I've commented before, many of these councils betray a non-Christian spirit. This is yet anther example. Not only don't I consider this council infallible; I consider it non-Christian. A previous thread convinced me that the 5th Council is non-Christians. I suppose for completeness we should look at the 6th.

I assume this isn't Jude1:3's intention, but his various threads are providing evidence for me that the 7 councils have no authority. At least beyond the first 4 (and I very much fear that a careful exploration would show the same issues in some of them).
 
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hedrick

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Is it not interesting the first 6 ecumenical councils addressed mainly topics of Christology and the Trinity? And the 7th dealt with images?
At the core, councils dealt with major disagreements that were seen as a threat to the Church. Mostly those had been disagreements over the Trinity and Christology. But just before the 7th Council, iconoclasm had become widespread. Since icons and images were deeply embedded in popular piety, this was a practical issue at least as important as Christology.

Indeed in some ways the 5th Council was similar. While the nominal issue was Christology, what really got people hot about Nestorius was that he thought some qualifications were needed in calling Mary the Mother of God. That was another deeply embedded piece of popular piety; challenging it was a serious matter.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Well, denying the depiction of Christ doesn't lead to denying he was incarnate and visible in the flesh. I don't know where you got that from.

Really, if you believe Christ's person is God, then any representation made by human imagination is a violation of the second commandment.
It's not human imagination though. We have early depictions of Christ, as well as the fact that he is human as well as God. Are we not meant to worship with all of our senses? A man-God sits on the throne of heaven. He is neither invisible nor removed.

Personally I consider images and icons a gray area. Not so much pictures used in Sunday School classrooms, but images used around altars or worship. I know Catholics and Orthodox don't intend idolatry, but it does seem pretty close. However I'm willing to accept their intent, so I consider Catholic and Orthodox (although not the participants in this council) brothers and sisters in Christ.

What I'm not willing to accept is cursing people who take a stricter position. As I've commented before, many of these councils betray a non-Christian spirit. This is yet anther example. Not only don't I consider this council infallible; I consider it non-Christian. A previous thread convinced me that the 5th Council is non-Christians. I suppose for completeness we should look at the 6th.

I assume this isn't Jude1:3's intention, but his various threads are providing evidence for me that the 7 councils have no authority. At least beyond the first 4 (and I very much fear that a careful exploration would show the same issues in some of them).
The non-Christians were the ones rounding up and killing those who used Icons. So what you had was a group of Bishops loyal to Emperor Leo supporting these actions, and then the decision of the Council had to make a statement condemning these Bishops for their violent ways, kicking them out of the Church if they refused to repent. I don't see how this is non-Christian when Paul was the first to create the Anathema and use it. Furthermore I don't see for its "pretty close" to idolatry when neither Catholics nor Orthodox worship the Icon itself but rather the person represented.
 
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Jonaitis

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It's not human imagination though. We have early depictions of Christ, as well as the fact that he is human as well as God. Are we not meant to worship with all of our senses? A man-God sits on the throne of heaven. He is neither invisible nor removed.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4

It is a violation of the second commandment to make an image to represent God.
 
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☦Marius☦

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"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4

It is a violation of the second commandment to make an image to represent God.
Yet God had Moses fashion a bronze serpent and the people of Israel had to bow before it. Also if you look in the Hebrew the word that translates to "Image or Idol" is the Hebrew word for Idol (pasal, פֶ֣֙סֶל֙).

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them."

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues; It is condemning making gods that you bow down to or serve. In a word, this first commandment forbids idolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God. Both the Orthodox and Catholic Church condemn this as well.

God does not break his own Law. He had the Cherubim fashioned, and the bronze serpent. The context of the full verse is important- You shall have no other Gods before me. The follow up to that is attached to the first part.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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It is also important to note that when the Bronze Serpent was worshiped as a false god, it was melted down, so the example would then apply to anything invoking the example.
 
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Chris V++

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I feel sorry for the 8 th century Christians. They had a council declaring anathema for an unwillingness to venerate, and a commandment that seems to expressly state that they might be cursed for venerating. Exodus 20:5

I wonder if this is the origin of the expression "damned if you do, damned if you don't.' :)
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I feel sorry for the 8 th century Christians. They had a council declaring anathema for an unwillingness to venerate, and a commandment that seems to expressly state that they might be cursed for venerating. Exodus 20:5

I wonder if this is the origin of the expression "damned if you do, damned if you don't.'
To be fair, how literate were the lay people in the 8th century?
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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Yet God had Moses fashion a bronze serpent and the people of Israel had to bow before it. Also if you look in the Hebrew the word that translates to "Image or Idol" is the Hebrew word for Idol (pasal, פֶ֣֙סֶל֙).

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them."

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues; It is condemning making gods that you bow down to or serve. In a word, this first commandment forbids idolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God. Both the Orthodox and Catholic Church condemn this as well.

God does not break his own Law. He had the Cherubim fashioned, and the bronze serpent. The context of the full verse is important- You shall have no other Gods before me. The follow up to that is attached to the first part.

See, this is what I was actually trying to explain, but you do a better job of presenting the information than I do.


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☦Marius☦

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To be fair, how literate were the lay people in the 8th century?

I think you would be surprised. I read once that open theological discussion was one of the most common occurrences in the marketplaces of Byzantium in the 4th through 7th centuries.
 
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Jonaitis

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Yet God had Moses fashion a bronze serpent and the people of Israel had to bow before it. Also if you look in the Hebrew the word that translates to "Image or Idol" is the Hebrew word for Idol (pasal, פֶ֣֙סֶל֙).

"You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them."

Verses 3 and 5 make clear that this commandment is not simply condemning making statues; It is condemning making gods that you bow down to or serve. In a word, this first commandment forbids idolatry, i.e., the worship of anything or anyone other than God. Both the Orthodox and Catholic Church condemn this as well.

God does not break his own Law. He had the Cherubim fashioned, and the bronze serpent. The context of the full verse is important- You shall have no other Gods before me. The follow up to that is attached to the first part.

Moses never commanded Israel to bow to the bronze serpent. "So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:9).

God never said the bronze serpent or the carved cherubim represented him either. My contention isn't images in and of themselves, but the abuse of them and the representation of the Godhead. Clearly, the second commandment is not only against idolatry, but the creation of an image that even represents any member of the Godhead.

"You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4
 
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hedrick

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The non-Christians were the ones rounding up and killing those who used Icons. So what you had was a group of Bishops loyal to Emperor Leo supporting these actions, and then the decision of the Council had to make a statement condemning these Bishops for their violent ways, kicking them out of the Church if they refused to repent. I don't see how this is non-Christian when Paul was the first to create the Anathema and use it. Furthermore I don't see for its "pretty close" to idolatry when neither Catholics nor Orthodox worship the Icon itself but rather the person represented.
Of course. These disputes often got violent on both sides, and it's equally a problem on both sides. But the statements in the OP don't just prohibit violence. They anathematize anyone who fails to honor images. The Christian way to combat violence is not with your own fighting words.

Before responding, however, I should have checked the sources. Particularly given the previous discussion on the 5th Council, in which a document not actually adopted by the Council was posted.

The statements in the OP are not actually canons of the council. They are statements made by bishops who had been iconoclasts and were repenting. They were received. But another bishop repented without making any such condemnations, and was also received. So the anathemas aren't exactly words of the Council. However they accepted them, and I still think that's a problem, although not the level of problem that it appeared from the OP.

Ugh.

The first commandment prohibits making idols and using them in worship. It was always understood that this applies not just to images of false gods but even images of the true God. I doubt that anyone actually worshipped the wood, even among Baal-worshippers. Rather, use of images in worship is prohibited.

Again, I accept the statements of Orthodox and Catholics about their intent, but I think it's a gray area.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think you would be surprised. I read once that open theological discussion was one of the most common subjects in the marketplaces of Byzantium in the 4th through 7th centuries.
Interesting.

But overall around the world where the church was, was it like that too?

Just thinking, as that seems to be the only reason why icons of the gospel story would remain relevant to the point of defending them in a council.
 
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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith

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any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth." - Exodus 20:4

Are not the Cherubs in Heaven though ?


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