The Anathemas against The Image Breakers from The Seventh Ecumenical Council in 787 A.D.

☦Marius☦ said:

Moreover that the Apostles handed down much that was unwritten, Paul, the Apostle of the Gentiles, tells us in these words: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast and bold the traditions which ye have been taught of us, whether by word or by epistle." And to the Corinthians he writes, "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the traditions as I have delivered them to you."

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Thanks for the two posts. The above quote is also used by Roman Catholics to promote the doctrines of Papal infallibility.

Frankly anyone can fly a Swedenborgian 747 through that verse and use it to promote any theology or practice.

The history shows that there were very few who wanted all images and icons out of the churches. The controversy was the veneration of icons.

The Council of Frankfurt, traditionally also the Council of Frankfort,[2][3] in 794 was called by Charlemagne, as a meeting of the important churchmen of the Frankish realm. Bishops and priests from Francia, Aquitaine, Italy, and Provencegathered in Franconofurd (now known as Frankfurt am Main). The synod, held in June 794, allowed the discussion and resolution of many central religious and political questions.

The chief concerns of the council were the Frankish response to the Adoptionistmovement in Spain and the Second Council of Nicaea (787), which had been held by the Byzantine Empress Irene of Athens and had dealt with iconoclasm and with which Charlemagne took issue because no Frankish churchmen had been invited. Ultimately, the council condemned the Adoptionist heresy and revoked the Nicene Council's decrees regarding holy icons, condemning both iconodulism(veneration of icons) and iconoclasm(destruction of icons), "allowing that images could be useful educational devices, but denying that they were worthy of veneration."[4]

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.)

Session 1

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea



• Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to The Image Breakers.


• Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.


• Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.


• Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.


• Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.


• Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.


• Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.


• Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.


• Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church has at any time sanctioned idols.


• Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.


Seventh Ecumenical Council - OrthodoxWiki

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The fact of the matter was Christians had images, rites, rituals, confessions and such in the imperial churches of the Kings and emperors of Europe, What they did not have were Bibles. The reason for that was that Bibles were a threat to the very kings and emperors who were the defacto heads of these imperial churches. (Although the Roman church, because of circumstances outside the control of the Roman emperors eventually evolved into more of a symbiotic relationship with said kings and emperors.)

In fact there are quite a few instances when some people groups or little nation began to get access to the scripture because some hapless priest or monk actually read the Bible and took it to heart and began to teach it. That the powers that existed would come in and just wipe those people off the face of the earth.

The printing press was what changed all this. Stranger than fiction put to commercial use exactly when the fourth of the four empires prophesied about in scripture ended. 1453 AD. The authorities couldn't keep up with the new technology and by the time the emperors and kings of Europe raised an army to wipe out the cancer in northern Europe. It was to late. A people armed, shall I say the general public armed with God's Word, for the first time in human history outside ancient Israel won, or at least fought the powers that had always been victorious to a stand still. Those people in northern Europe with a general public who had their own Bibles to read themselves went on to create the free world that we are now so blessed with. A world where as a matter of course. The earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints could now come to pass in the lives of true believers.

One of the hundreds of chapters of prophecy about this:

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills;
The Lords house are believers of all nations. The mountains and hills represent kingdoms, nations, but especially, influences in the world.
and all nations shall flow to it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
Where have people been going for the last 2000 years to find God, to be taught of his ways to walk in his paths? To Christians, the Bible or a church.
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
The Word of the Lord came into the world through ancient Israel. Even so. Ancient Israel was a type and a shadow of the people of God of all nations to come; who are the New Jerusalem, the Zion of the Lord. Through them, the Word of the Lord is spreading to the entire world.
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This is a prophecy given to ancient Israel. Who, because of God's dispensation of partial light to them relied heavily on the sword to spread or maintain the influence of Gods invisible kingdom. When the messiah, the light of the world entered the scene. The heavy reliance on the sword to spread or maintain the influence of his invisible kingdom came to an end. The sword and the spear were made into tools for farming. The farmer sows the Word of God into peoples hearts. Just as Jesus's parable about his invisible kingdom in Luke 8:4-15 teaches.

The mountain of the Lords house mentioned above is this mountain.
Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

These four empires are later named in scripture as Babylon, Medo\Perisa, Greece and Rome. The Roman Empire did not end until what had been its capitol since 333 AD, Constantinople was conquered in 1453 AD and the last Roman emperor killed. Right exactly when for the first time in human history the general public started to gain access to the Bible. The farmer sows the word. The mountain of the Lords house keeps growing and their influence grows with that. To bad most of today's believers don't believe this. Imagine what they could do in Christ if they were not waiting for the end of the world.

My point is in relation to the op. Why return to the powerless rites and rituals, confessions and images when we now all have God's Word in our own homes? None of those things gave mankind the power to overcome the despotic world of dictators in the guise of kings and emperors. God's word did.

☦Marius☦ said:

How can you call it popery when the pope didn't exist in the modern respect at that time?

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The bishop of Rome held that position in the spirit of this council. The ultimate veneration of that office was inevitable with language like theirs.

redleghunter said:

Thanks for the two posts. The above quote is also used by Roman Catholics to promote the doctrines of Papal infallibility.

Frankly anyone can fly a Swedenborgian 747 through that verse and use it to promote any theology or practice.

The history shows that there were very few who wanted all images and icons out of the churches. The controversy was the veneration of icons.

The Council of Frankfurt, traditionally also the Council of Frankfort,[2][3] in 794 was called by Charlemagne, as a meeting of the important churchmen of the Frankish realm. Bishops and priests from Francia, Aquitaine, Italy, and Provencegathered in Franconofurd (now known as Frankfurt am Main). The synod, held in June 794, allowed the discussion and resolution of many central religious and political questions.

The chief concerns of the council were the Frankish response to the Adoptionistmovement in Spain and the Second Council of Nicaea (787), which had been held by the Byzantine Empress Irene of Athens and had dealt with iconoclasm and with which Charlemagne took issue because no Frankish churchmen had been invited. Ultimately, the council condemned the Adoptionist heresy and revoked the Nicene Council's decrees regarding holy icons, condemning both iconodulism(veneration of icons) and iconoclasm(destruction of icons), "allowing that images could be useful educational devices, but denying that they were worthy of veneration."[4]

Click to expand...

I've never really seen a Roman Catholic try to use those verses if discussing the issue with an Orthodox. I also disagree that anyone can use that verse to justify anything. We have the Early Church Father's writings to avoid that. St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, and many others were all active writers discussing Catholic Tradition. It is their writings that the Orthodox Follow along with the First 7 councils because councils are how the Apostles taught the Church to solve doctrinal issues. St. Polycarp had Paul's approval and St. Polycarp wrote about the faithfulness of St. Ignatius. I therefore trust their writings and therefore converted to Orthodoxy from Protestantism.

The issue of Papal Infallibility is its own debate, and one not really relevant to the 7th council as at that time it didn't exist.

royal priest said:

The bishop of Rome held that position in the spirit of this council. The ultimate veneration of that office was inevitable with language like theirs.

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Apparently not as half of the Church broke away 300 years later while not changing any of the language used for such offices. There were in fact five "popes" or "patriarchs" equal in power. Rome was simply the one most respected. There were many times that the Pope's view was not agreed with however, and therefore cast aside. The Eastern Church still uses such titles for our Patriarchs, but you don't see us giving them infallibility.

Daniel Martinovich said:

The fact of the matter was Christians had images, rites, rituals, confessions and such in the imperial churches of the Kings and emperors of Europe, What they did not have were Bibles. The reason for that was that Bibles were a threat to the very kings and emperors who were the defacto heads of these imperial churches. (Although the Roman church, because of circumstances outside the control of the Roman emperors eventually evolved into more of a symbiotic relationship with said kings and emperors.)

In fact there are quite a few instances when some people groups or little nation began to get access to the scripture because some hapless priest or monk actually read the Bible and took it to heart and began to teach it. That the powers that existed would come in and just wipe those people off the face of the earth.

The printing press was what changed all this. Stranger than fiction put to commercial use exactly when the fourth of the four empires prophesied about in scripture ended. 1453 AD. The authorities couldn't keep up with the new technology and by the time the emperors and kings of Europe raised an army to wipe out the cancer in northern Europe. It was to late. A people armed, shall I say the general public armed with God's Word, for the first time in human history outside ancient Israel won, or at least fought the powers that had always been victorious to a stand still. Those people in northern Europe with a general public who had their own Bibles to read themselves went on to create the free world that we are now so blessed with. A world where as a matter of course. The earthly promises of God made to hundreds of generations of saints could now come to pass in the lives of true believers.

One of the hundreds of chapters of prophecy about this:

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills;
The Lords house are believers of all nations. The mountains and hills represent kingdoms, nations, but especially, influences in the world.
and all nations shall flow to it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:
Where have people been going for the last 2000 years to find God, to be taught of his ways to walk in his paths? To Christians, the Bible or a church.
for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
The Word of the Lord came into the world through ancient Israel. Even so. Ancient Israel was a type and a shadow of the people of God of all nations to come; who are the New Jerusalem, the Zion of the Lord. Through them, the Word of the Lord is spreading to the entire world.
Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
This is a prophecy given to ancient Israel. Who, because of God's dispensation of partial light to them relied heavily on the sword to spread or maintain the influence of Gods invisible kingdom. When the messiah, the light of the world entered the scene. The heavy reliance on the sword to spread or maintain the influence of his invisible kingdom came to an end. The sword and the spear were made into tools for farming. The farmer sows the Word of God into peoples hearts. Just as Jesus's parable about his invisible kingdom in Luke 8:4-15 teaches.

The mountain of the Lords house mentioned above is this mountain.
Daniel 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

These four empires are later named in scripture as Babylon, Medo\Perisa, Greece and Rome. The Roman Empire did not end until what had been its capitol since 333 AD, Constantinople was conquered in 1453 AD and the last Roman emperor killed. Right exactly when for the first time in human history the general public started to gain access to the Bible. The farmer sows the word. The mountain of the Lords house keeps growing and their influence grows with that. To bad most of today's believers don't believe this. Imagine what they could do in Christ if they were not waiting for the end of the world.

My point is in relation to the op. Why return to the powerless rites and rituals, confessions and images when we now all have God's Word in our own homes? None of those things gave mankind the power to overcome the despotic world of dictators in the guise of kings and emperors. God's word did.

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Completely historically inaccurate. Scripture was widely available in Greek and Latin throughout both Europe and the Eastern Roman Empire at that time.

The problems of the latter reformation are completely irrelevant to the problems in the 7th century as in the 7th, all these issues were discussed and publicly known. Not only that but the ten commandments along with the entire New Testament, as well as most of the Old, are read throughout the year every Sunday. We have a calendar with each day having a different verse and it has always been that way.

The Bible was canonized in the 4th century, and widely copied so that every Parish would have had the scriptures. The problem with the German reformation was the debate over whether the Vulgate should be translated into German to retain its original meaning as Latin was seen as a theological language where as German was not.

☦Marius☦ said:

I've never really seen a Roman Catholic try to use those verses if discussing the issue with an Orthodox. I also disagree that anyone can use that verse to justify anything. We have the Early Church Father's writings to avoid that. St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus, and many others were all active writers discussing Catholic Tradition. It is their writings that the Orthodox Follow along with the First 7 councils because councils are how the Apostles taught the Church to solve doctrinal issues. St. Polycarp had Paul's approval and St. Polycarp wrote about the faithfulness of St. Ignatius. I therefore trust their writings and therefore converted to Orthodoxy from Protestantism.

The issue of Papal Infallibility is its own debate, and one not really relevant to the 7th council as at that time it didn't exist.

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Is it not interesting the first 6 ecumenical councils addressed mainly topics of Christology and the Trinity? And the 7th dealt with images?

☦Marius☦ said:

Completely historically inaccurate. Scripture was widely available in Greek and Latin throughout both Europe and the Eastern Roman Empire at that time.

The problems of the latter reformation are completely irrelevant to the problems in the 7th century as in the 7th, all these issues were discussed and publicly known. Not only that but the ten commandments along with the entire New Testament, as well as most of the Old, are read throughout the year every Sunday. We have a calendar with each day having a different verse and it has always been that way.

The Bible was canonized in the 4th century, and widely copied so that every Parish would have had the scriptures. The problem with the German reformation was the debate over whether the Vulgate should be translated into German to retain its original meaning as Latin was seen as a theological language where as German was not.

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You made the mistake I thought someone would and I should have made it clearer. I did not say it was not available in churches, cathedrals and monasteries . I said it was not available to the general public. In fact during certain time periods it was illegal. Basically not only did you have to be well to do to be able to commission a hand written or wood tablet printed Bible. But you had to have the right political connections to do so.

Now if you want to get into the nitty gritty of all this. In the world of the Roman Church. These "readings' were done in Latin. Not the native language of most Europeans. But over all the issue was an issue of control of Christianity by kings and emperors to secure their own interests rather than the promotion of Christianity. Just exactly what you see in communist countries today. The dictators create an official state church. Not to promote Christianity but to control it. To step outside the official church is to commit treason against the dictator.

Now I know many nations for time periods would seek to buck the system. That is what I meant when I said the powers that existed would eventually militarily conquer those peoples. Because a nation next door to your kingdom that is has the general public reading Bibles is a threat to your rule.

Shoot, don't even try to justify that world. My wife and I went to a Greek festival last fall and attended the question and answering session in the Greek orthodox church. The priest was asked about all the pictures, tapestries and stained glass. His straight forward answer was: "You have to understand that for thousands of years people didn't have Bibles. They didn't come to church with a Bible under their arm. So we had all this to help them.

There's this thing called the printing press. Before that, manuscripts were copied by hand, so only clergy had a copy.

☦Marius☦ said:

While I understand your appeal to the commandment, you should read the defense of Iconography that actually won the 7th council. From our perspective, Christ's incarnation into flesh made God visable to all mankind, and therefore re presentable. The 3rd commandment was written at a time before God was made visible. To try to represent the invisible Father would be to take away from his Glory. That is why it is Orthodox cannon that we shouldn't paint the Father. However Christ was here among us. God seen by human individuals by their own eyes. He could be touched, smelled, seen, and heard.

For us, Iconography is a declaration of the incarnation by showing that Christ is both Man and God, and the way to heaven opened.

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I'm sorry, but to my uninitiated-to-Orthox Theology, this all just seems like a matter of mental gymnastics vs. the Word of God. Your overview of the defense of Iconography doesn't recommend it very well to me.

☦Marius☦ said:

Forgive my Orthodox brother here for his... zealotry.

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While the matter of forgiveness is a foregone conclusion for me (I have come to view forgiveness as an ever-present attitude--when availed of correctly--rather than an event):

This is a general, controversial Theology forum, is it not? All the forgiveness in the world will not undo the effects of your brother's "zeal" on the discussion. I have no control over that.

☦Marius☦ said:

There is nothing funny about a Holy Curse.

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Perhaps not, but they may appear somewhat frivolous when they seem to be darting about like frisbees on a sunny day in the park.

☦Marius☦ said:

You make the Orthodox appear as though we are only here to promote dogma, which is NOT what Holy Tradition is about. You sound as the pharisees, judging those who disagree with you without providing evidence why. You need to explain WHY the councils are authoritative. Do so with Love however.

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If I might be so bold as to bend the rules a bit, the quote in your signature seems to be somewhat at odds with the air of benevolence and restraint you seem to portray in your post. I say this only because it seems almost certain to call your purpose into question.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.)

Session 1

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea

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Let's check this out...

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to The Image Breakers.

Click to expand...

Interesting...

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.

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As someone said, how convenient.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

•

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Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.

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Interesting.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.

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Well, well!

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.

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Interesting.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.

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Why are you on CF

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.

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?

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.

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So most Christians on here are condemned and not really in the faith?

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church has at any time sanctioned idols.

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Interesting.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.

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Haha, interesting.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Seventh Ecumenical Council - OrthodoxWiki

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Wow, thanks for reminding me where the Orthodox stands on salvific issues. Apparently my belief of images affects whether or not I am condemned or saved. Nice.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.

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Why should this not be considered pronouncing a curse upon yourself?

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Oh, by the way:

And You Shall Make Two Cherubim Of Gold; of hammered work You Shall Make Them at the two ends of the mercy seat.
• Exodus 25:18

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What does this passage have to do with anything? The Israelite never saw the Ark. It was placed in the Holiest section of the Tabernacle and Temple. Even when they carried it in the wilderness, when the tabernacle was taken down, the priests were commanded to cover it with a cloth (Numbers 4:5-6). Obviously, this must have been the practice throughout its existence when carried in public by the priests. In 1 Samuel 6:19, when seventy men looked upon it they were struck by God.

It was prohibited for the Israelites to look at it, let alone touch it.

redleghunter said:

Is it not interesting the first 6 ecumenical councils addressed mainly topics of Christology and the Trinity? And the 7th dealt with images?

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Isn't it though?

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

• Seventh Ecumenical Council (787 A.D.)

Session 1

CHURCH FATHERS: Second Council of Nicaea



• Anathema to the calumniators of the Christians, that is to The Image Breakers.


• Anathema to those who apply the words of Holy Scripture which were spoken against idols, to the venerable images.


• Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images.


• Anathema to those who say that Christians have recourse to the images as to gods.


• Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols.


• Anathema to those who knowingly communicate with those who revile and dishonour the venerable images.


• Anathema to those who say that another than Christ our Lord has delivered us from idols.


• Anathema to those who spurn the teachings of the holy Fathers and the tradition of the Catholic Church, taking as a pretext and making their own the arguments of Arius, Nestorius, Eutyches, and Dioscorus, that unless we were evidently taught by the Old and New Testaments, we should not follow the teachings of the holy Fathers and of the holy Ecumenical Synods, and the tradition of the Catholic Church.


• Anathema to those who dare to say that the Catholic Church has at any time sanctioned idols.


• Anathema to those who say that the making of images is a diabolical invention and not a tradition of our holy Fathers.


Seventh Ecumenical Council - OrthodoxWiki

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Evangelicals don't care about this, they care about what they think about everything not real truth of Christ

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

I wasn't trying to pronounce Anathemas against anyone. I was just trying to show what The Councils said about icons. Nothing more.

I was trying to lighten up the discussion with humor using the Oprah gif.



.

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For what it's worth most of us probably understood u were kidding with the oprah gif and that you yourself were not trying to curse anyone.

Jude1:3Contendforthefaith said:

Someone posted Exodus 20:4-6 as a verse against making images so I posted Exodus 25:18 showing where God said to make images.


.

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Is your point God introduced confusion?