Science and Religion

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Science and Religion

Conflicts between Science and Religion concern areas in which they overlap. The concept of Intelligent Design lies in this overlap. The Bible affirms science in the sense of making inferences from observations of nature where it states, "since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities— his eternal power and divine nature— have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Rom 1:20

To complicate matters there are a number of other areas such as Philosophy and History which also overlap both Science and Religion.

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Science is primarily descriptive. It tries to develop a set of principles which describe what normally happens, and then use those principles to infer what has or will happen. In doing so it overlaps with Philosophy in the Philosophy of Science with ideas like the idea that what normally happens is based upon some underlying principles, and the idea that those principles are applicable, within conditional limits, in the past, present and future. It overlaps with history in the fact that much of "what normally happens" is based upon historical accounts. Indeed even when experiments are performed, the next day they are history. Science and History further overlap in a number of areas such as forensics, anthropology, archeology. But while Science can only make inferences as to what happened, History is about what actually happened. Science must bow to History. For History contains the factual basis of Science.

Religion and History also overlap. For much of the Bible contains historical records. To discard the Bible as historical because it contains religious content as well is logically fallacious. But so also is accepting its contents on blind faith. As an historical document it needs to be evaluated as any other alleged account of history. Most who have done so objectively, free of prejudice, have ended up becoming Christians. For despite the divine interventions and miraculous accounts which would seem to conflict with science, many find it convincing as an historical document. Remember that it is not Science which rules, but History. (For History is after all His-Story) Science is only about what normally happens, but not necessarily about what actually does happen in every case. Though it does not presume the miraculous, it cannot rule it out.

But it's not just concerning the miraculous where Science and Religion overlap, for they overlap even concerning what normally happens. For divine intervention is not always characterized as "miraculous". Consider Proverbs 16:33 "The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD." If you flip a coin, the Lord determines the outcome. But that fact is neither proveable nor disproveable. Yes you can flip it many times and come up with a probability curve characterizing what normally happens. But you cannot determine the outcome of particular tosses. Science can say what might be, but the Lord says what will be. And there's no conflict between the two. If something unlikely happens, Science can only say it was unlikely within the limited frame of the scientific principle being applied, but not that it was impossible.

Concerning Evolution - the idea that things changed over time - while evolution conflicts with certain interpretations of the historical sections of the Bible, it is not in conflict with every interpretation of those sections. Nor is it is conflict with the direct overlap between religion and science. There are those who argue "God wouldn't do it that way", but who are they to say how God would do it? And such a statements come not only from certain Christians defending their interpretation of the Bible, but also from atheists who claim for example that a perfect God would not have designed things in such an imperfect sense - subject to corruption and such. But again I would argue who are they to say what God's purposes were in doing so. In fact their very objection may be answered in the Bible, which explains the bigger purposes of God. And it says, The LORD said to him, "Who gave man his mouth? Who makes him deaf or mute? Who gives him sight or makes him blind? Is it not I, the LORD?" Ex 4:11The skeptics fail in the realm of Philosophy to consider all the possibilities. The fact that nature is designed is a scientific inference, even more so than inferring, for example, intelligent beings as the source of radio transmissions communicating in a language form. It's a scientific inference as a jury would draw conclusions based upon forensic evidence. So if science being taught in the classrooms is to include not only its principles about what normally happens, but also inferences about things as those principles are applied, then isn't one of those inferences the fact that we are designed? Shouldn't that be taught also as a part of scientific curricula?
 
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mark kennedy

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Science is an epistimology (theory of knowledge) focused exclusively on natural phenomenon. Theology is actually metaphysics and it has it's own unique epistemology.

The conflicts are pretty insignificant, theology is a much broader field of thought.
 
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GodLovesCats

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Science is an epistimology (theory of knowledge) focused exclusively on natural phenomenon.

You don't know what science is to be giving misinformation like that. A theory is knowledge about science that has often been repeated in studies using the scientific method. So before there can be a theory there must be a hypothesis, then a conclusion, then follow-up studies that produce similar conclusions.

You are also wrong about science only being about natural phenomenons. There is no technology without science. The phrase "science and technology" is common because often those subjects are closely related.
 
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mark kennedy

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You don't know what science is to be giving misinformation like that. A theory is knowledge about science that has often been repeated in studies using the scientific method. So before there can be a theory there must be a hypothesis, then a conclusion, then follow-up studies that produce similar conclusions.

You are also wrong about science only being about natural phenomenons. There is no technology without science. T0he phrase "science and technology" is common because often those subjects are closely related.
Science is the inductive approach to natural phenomenon, first proposed by Fancis Bacon in the early 1600s. This approach was developed during the Scientific Revolution. Eventually Isaac Newton would use it to demonstrate his theory of light. By refusing to defend it using the deductive logic of Aristotelian Scolasticism he permenantly established the inductive approach as the methodology of science. He didn't really call it science in Principia, he called it the First Philosophy as did Descartes. In Principia he outlined the four steps of science. It was facts, theories, laws and anomalies.

Science is an epistomolgy (theory of knowledge) of natural phebomenon. Technology is just an application of the principles as they benefit from and contribute to scientific progress. Telescopes and microscopes are prime examples from the scientific revolution

I think one of the ways of understanding science is to look at one built from the ground up. Starting with Mendels pea plant experiments to the unveiling of the DNA double Helix model by Crick, Watson and their colleagues.

But you think science is hurling insults, which is typical of the common forums on here.
 
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GodLovesCats

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But you think science is hurling insults, which is typical of the common forums on here.

Refusing to accept the obvious fact that scientific theories are realities not subject to one's opinions of the facts is hurling insults.
 
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mark kennedy

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Refusing to accept the obvious fact that scientific theories are realities not subject to one's opinions of the facts is hurling insults.
Your just making this up as you go along, but let's try this again. We are all familiar with how an experimental method or directly observed fact works. Well the inductive approach makes inferences on the larger set based on what can be learned from the smaller sub set. Regardless, facts are established systematically, they need to be organized into theories, all theories are unified theories since they organize facts.

Now we all learned this in school but it becomes vital when you see how it applies to a theory of light, or the principles of motion. Newton's greates contribution was probably calculus. Since Kepler people had known and used the Y-squared. Newton was the first to calculate it in motion, making the industrial revolution the obvious next step.

I could go on but these things are never about science. Just highly convoluted, biting personal remarks. You want to correct me in scathing terms for saying science is focused on natural phenomenon, then you never address the issue once. You get some straw man going over theories not being sibject to opinions. I would enjoy pursing that vut you will just igbore it and move on to the next pedantic fallacy.
 
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By the way there is no real conflict between science and religion. This forum is about Creationism and Darwinian evolution. Does anyone bother pursuing that subject matter anymore or have we abandoned the issues involved in how Christians relate the doctrine of creation to adaptive evolution.

Am I the only one still into fossils and genomic comparisons?
 
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GodLovesCats

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By the way there is no real conflict between science and religion. This forum is about Creationism and Darwinian evolution. Does anyone bother pursuing that subject matter anymore or have we abandoned the issues involved in how Christians relate the doctrine of creation to adaptive evolution.

Am I the only one still into fossils and genomic comparisons?

Of course not. I love natural history and do not see any reason for people to be skeptic about evidence all over the world that Earth is an extremely old planet.

Go on, keep chatting about paleontology, biology, and geology all yiou want.
 
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mark kennedy

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Of course not. I love natural history and do not see any reason for people to be skeptic about evidence all over the world that Earth is an extremely old planet.

Go on, keep chatting about paleontology, biology, and geology all yiou want.
Oh thanks for your permission to discuss the subject matter the forum was set up for.

Now about the age of the earth, it's irrelevant to the doctrine of creation. Creation is about the origin of life i general and man in particular.

So go ahead and keep talking about history, maybe we can relate redemptive history to natural history.
 
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What is redemptive history?

Let's move on to the Great Flood. It seems every mass extinction in Earth's history happened long before humans existed, which makes me think no animal species living at the time completely died out during it. But what about Noah? When did a worldwide flood occur in human history?
 
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mark kennedy

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What is redemptive history?
You've never heard of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ? The promise of eternal life? If God didn't create life originally why would we trust him for new birth and the resurrection?
Let's move on to the Great Flood. It seems every mass extinction in Earth's history happened long before humans existed, which makes me think no animal species living at the time completely died out during it. But what about Noah? When did a worldwide flood occur in human history?
There was no life on earth prior to creation. I don't know about prehistoric extinctions but we have a lot of extinctions pending in our day.

I don't know what exactly your into but my thing has always been hominid fossils and comparative genomics. I've also studied the Scriptures quite a bit but if you have no concept redemptive history it probably doesnt interest you.
 
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OH, I thought you were talking about something totally different. The death and resurrectoin of Jesus had nothing to do with what happened before humans lived.

OK, so here goes human evolution: Scientists know hte first human species had two jaw bones and didn't have bones in the middle ear. That changed when their diets did. The second jaw bone was not needed to eat different foods, so it shrunk and moved into the space below the ear anjd became the hammer, anvil, and stirrup. So anyone who denies evolution can just look at mammalian ear anatomy.
 
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OH, I thought you were talking about something totally different. The death and resurrectoin of Jesus had nothing to do with what happened before humans lived.
That was a pretty pointless statement. The creation of life, the Incarnation, the resurrection and the promise of eternal life are all related.
OK, so here goes human evolution: Scientists know hte first human species had two jaw bones and didn't have bones in the middle ear. That changed when their diets did. The second jaw bone was not needed to eat different foods, so it shrunk and moved into the space below the ear anjd became the hammer, anvil, and stirrup. So anyone who denies evolution can just look at mammalian ear anatomy.
Why are there no chimpanzee ancestors in the fossil record?
 
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There are.
There are none, They found 3 teeth in the Rift Valley they think are Chimpanzee. How about the Taung Child, do you think it might be chimpanzee? At just over 400 cc it's a little small for a chimpanzee.it's about 1000 cc smaller then a human skull.
 
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Thete are none, They found 3 teeth in the Rift Valley they think are Chimpanzee. How about the Taung Child, do you think it might be chimpanzee? At just over 400 cc it's a little small for a chimpanzee.

So you have done no research at all on the centuries-long search for the oldest human fossils? They have found skeletons of hominids that look like champanzees in those efforts.
 
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mark kennedy

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So you have done no research at all on the centuries-long search for the oldest human fossils? They have found skeletons of hominids that look like champanzees in those efforts.
I've done tons of research and there are no chimpanzee ancestors in the fossil record, with the exception of 3 maybe 4 teeth. They were not discovered until 2005, published in the same issue of Nature as the Chimpanzee Genome paper. Check my profile, I've been into this since 2003.
 
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