Is the land restoration to the nation of Israel found in the new covenant?

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The context of Romans 11:26 is the salvation of Israel.
However, you are in denial that the Church is a part of Israel, as found in Acts of the Apostles 2:36-40, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3.

The promoters of your doctrine very often leave out the word "so", or change the word "so" to the word "then" in Romans 11:26, to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work.


Is there a difference between the "manner" of salvation, and the "timing" of salvation?

If there is, then the Greek word "houto" cannot be ignored in Romans 11:26.

.


The Church, while having been founded by Abraham’s seed, has consisted and still consists of those who are both descendants of Abraham and those who are not. That the Church has been called Israel in the spiritual sense cannot be denied, but it has never called Israel in the literal sense nor has it taken the place of Israel as a nation and people.

Israel and the Church still remain separate and distinct entities in the sense that not all who are in Christ are descendants of Abraham and that not all who are children of Abraham are presently children of God in the sense that they remain alienated from God because they have not yet embraced the New Covenant, yet they are called the people of God in the sense that God had chosen them to be His representative people and nation to the entire world.

Granted that they have failed at that miserably, but then again, so has the Church and in more ways than one, yet one promise they both have in common in that neither the nation of Israel or the Church will be destroyed but both will continue to abide forever.

But Israel as a nation will not always continue in unbelief as is pointed out in the following passages (Rom. 9:27, 11:26) but if all of Israel had been saved, then why would Paul speak of their salvation as a whole as a thing to come? Once again, by fixating on a syllable, you are discounting the entire context of the verse. No one is changing anything.

Yet when the nation of Israel does finally call upon, welcome, and submit themselves to Jesus, it is in that day that all of descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob receive the salvation that we have and are reconciled to God as we are. That will be where the nation and people of Israel find their preservation and when the experience all the good things that God has desired to bestow them, and achieve the exalted status that it is foretold that they will.
 
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I do not identify as German, or Scotch, or Irish, or Dutch, although I am descended from all of those people groups, based on who my grandparents, and great-grandparents were.

Does that mean none of them are my ancestors?


.


Yet even if you did identify as belonging to any of these groups of people based on your ancestry, none of them would accept you as being one of them on the basis of nationality, but Jews have been known to declare even those of Jewish descent to be one of them by blood despite the fact that there is debate within the Jewish community about what qualifies one as a Jew, even by blood.
 
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jgr

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The Haaretz article does not speak for all Jews.

That must be dispensationalists.

They know more about Jews than Jews know about themselves.

And every genuine dispensationalist should be rejoicing with every genuine Jew in the reality of ubiquity. Why?

Because that reality represents the full and complete literal dispensational fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham; that in his seed, literal Jews, all families of the earth would be blessed.

It's nothing less than dispensational utopia.

Why are you not rejoicing?
 
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Yet even if you did identify as belonging to any of these groups of people based on your ancestry, none of them would accept you as being one of them on the basis of nationality, but Jews have been known to declare even those of Jewish descent to be one of them by blood despite the fact that there is debate within the Jewish community about what qualifies one as a Jew, even by blood.

What does the Bible say about who is now a Jew?


Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

What is your standard of who is now a Jew?

Do you go by the doctrine of those lost souls who are modern Orthodox Jewish rabbis, or do you accept what is found in the New Testament?



.
 
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keras

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But Israel as a nation will not always continue in unbelief
National Israel, by which you mean the Jewish State of Israel, surely won't continue their apostasy, atheism, LGBT parades and Jesus rejection; because they will be destroyed and gone. The judgment and destruction of Judah is prophesied over 20 times in the Bible. Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27
You fail to see this truth because as a 'rapture to heaven' believer, you must have an 'Israel' on earth while you sit in heaven. This will not and cannot happen.

That will be where the nation and people of Israel find their preservation and when the experience all the good things that God has desired to bestow them, and achieve the exalted status that it is foretold that they will.
The Promises of God are to be fulfilled through Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:19-22
There is only one people of God and they are the people who have freely accepted Jesus as their Savior and Redeemer. Jew and Gentile; people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:10
But regarding the issue of who is the real Israel; First and foremost they must be faithful Christian believers. Then, as God has planned it, the majority of them will be actual, traceable descendants of Jacob. Only as we go into our heritage of the holy Land, will these things be reveled to us by the Lord. Ezekiel 37:21, Romans 8:16-18
 
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Once again, the typical "anti-Jewish" label used against Preterists by Zionist futurists, even after their zionist dispensationalist "dual covenant" doctrinal views have been refuted many times on CF......
========================================
Is Preterism Anti-semitic ? & Do you believe in "replacement theology?

Everything anyone ever wanted to know about the cult doctrine of Dispensationalism but were afraid to ask....and for good reason!

Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
The "Spider Web" doctrine/

View attachment 261086



Once again, the typical "anti-Jewish" label used against Preterists by Zionist futurists, even after their zionist dispensationalist "dual covenant" doctrinal views have been refuted many times on CF......


You are the one who asked me if I was a Jew in disguise by some chance. Who would ask such a question other than someone who might be harboring a prejudice against Jews?


"I can deny that preterism is anti-semitic. As surprising as it may seem, it is actually consistent futurism that logically fosters "Jew"-hatred. Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)


Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism."


More Preterist lies. Premil/Dispensationalist/futurists have not been known to use the cited passages to justify hatred towards Jews nor have the cited passages led any among that camp to justify hatred towards Jews. To a Premil/Disp/futurist, antisemitism is anathema.

The cited chapter from the book of Revelation describes a time yet to come and simply describes what the moral and spiritual state of Jerusalem will be when the events of chapter eleven will come to pass and what causes a sudden paradigm shift in the moral and spiritual condition of Jerusalem at that time; from one of irreverence and depravity to one of fear and trembling of and reverence towards God.

Paul’s indictment was not against all Jews but against those who in their wickedness had the Lord crucified and persisted in silencing the preaching of the Gospel. They were not hostile to all men in the sense that they hated the rest of humanity, but in the sense that they hated the Gospel so much that they did not even want the Gentiles to receive it. They would have rather had the Gentiles be converted to the Old Covenant system rather than allow them to embrace Christ.

Pre-millennials also recognize that Paul knew that Jews were coming to Christ in his day (Rom. 11:5) and that eventually, Israel as a nation people would come to embrace Christ as their Messiah. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26) It is those of Preterist leanings who might deny that this will ever happen.

If anything at all, it is those who hate the Gospel that would use the passages cited by your sources to accuse Christianity of encouraging hatred towards a people because they neither understand nor have any interest in understanding the intent of what the cited passages are actually communicating, even in light of the fact that Paul desired for all of his people to embrace Christ.


"In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59)."


While there is no denial that Israel and Jerusalem faced judgment for their rejection of the Messiah, the Romans bore rule over Jerusalem even before the 60’s A.D.


"After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15).

There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him."



There is clearly no understanding why God called Israel to be a people set apart from all other nations in the first place. It was not because He ever favored them above all other people but to fulfill the promises concerning them which He made to their forefathers who had been devoted, obedient, and faithful to Him and placed the faith in Him that He found pleasing in His sight.


"How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?
Probably millions."



It was Preterist minded Catholics who during the Inquisitions had persecuted the Jews so severely that they had to practice their faith in secret and it was Preterist minded Protestants like Martin Luther who continued that legacy of antisemitism in the Church when it should have been opposed by and put to an end by the reformation.

It was a Preterist minded KKK who, at the height of their power, routinely intimidated and terrorized Jewish people in America.

It was a Preterist minded Vatican who had resisted the re-establishment of Israel as a nation in their homeland and who aligned themselves with Adolf Hitler who killed six million Jews in the holocaust.


"Abraham's descendants were not cut off and "replaced" by a gentile church. The Jews never became an accursed race.
Yes, there was a wicked and perverse generation of accursed Jews in the Last Days. (Matt. 25:41; Mk. 11:21; Gal. 3:10) And yes, after A.D. 70 Abraham's descendants were no longer in any sense uniquely God's chosen people. But those facts in no way indicate that the Abrahamic blood-line became accursed.
Israel was hardened "in part" in the Last Days. (Rom. 11:25)"



If the Church has not replaced Israel, then Israel has not lost the role or status that it is destined to play in history and in prophecy fulfillment.


"It was through the world-changing, Last-Days work of the Holy Spirit that the "firstfruit" remnant of Israel was saved, (Rom. 11:5,16) and that "the fulness of the gentiles" was brought into Israel, (Rom. 11:25) and that the pre-Cross saints ("the dead" / "all Israel") were resurrected. (Rom. 11:15,26,28) All were gathered together at the Parousia of Christ and united into one eternal, spiritual, resurrected Body. (Rom. 11:26)"



Paul was speaking future-tense about the fullness of the Gentiles. It had not yet happened in his day and still has not happened yet. There is no mention of anything pertaining to a resurrection of any pre-Cross saints in the cited passages, and Romans 11:26 is in the future-tense, not past or present tense.


"In the ages before the Advent of the Son, God's people were not only separated from Him (as the animal sacrifices testified) and separated from each other (the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah) and separated from the unclean, gentile world, but wars with each other and wars with gentiles, and ultimately Death itself, separated every son of the kingdom from the worship of the Father.
Through the power of the Cross of Christ, those "old things" of "tears," "death," "sorrow," "outcry" and "pain" passed away in the end of the age. (Rev. 21:4) In His Parousia, the historic kingdom was transformed."



This present age has not ended. In this present world there is still pain, death, tears, outcry, and grief. But in the heavens and earth that are to come, these things will be done away with because there will be no more death or curse.


"The Church, which Israel's Messiah bought with His own blood, was not the replacement or condemnation of biblical Israel. (Jn. 3:17) It was its fulfillment. Christ's Kingdom today is the full and perfect realization of the hope and goal of Old-Testament Israel."



This much is true, and they will realize that goal. (Rom. 11:26)


"Good questions and answers. I have said from the beginning of my sojourn with preterism that unless you say that the specific generation that cursed and killed Jesus came under the blood curse (on us and our children) then all Jews are cursed. So, I can in no way endorse the charge and roundly deny that preterism is anti-semitic. Those rebellious, stiff-necked Jews that Jesus called a brood of vipers, a synagogue of satan and children of the devil were cursed and judgement came down on their head.

As far as "replacement" goes, I have never understood this charge. The Jews were the first Christians and Paul said that everything jewish was excrement compared to Christ."



Paul never went so far as to claim that anything Jewish was excrement. He himself was a Jew, but said that those things were a shadow of things to come as pertaining to Christ and were in and of themselves not the reality, but Christ is the reality.
 
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What does the Bible say about who is now a Jew?

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Tit 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

What is your standard of who is now a Jew?

Do you go by the doctrine of those lost souls who are modern Orthodox Jewish rabbis, or do you accept what is found in the New Testament?



.


The scripture makes a clear distinction between who is a Jew spiritually and who is not a Jew spiritually even if they be a Jew by blood. But they who become Jews spiritually through Christ do not cease to be either Jew or Gentile by blood.

The scripture also states that both the nation of Israel and the Church will abide forever in Christ.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You are the one who asked me if I was a Jew in disguise by some chance. Who would ask such a question other than someone who might be harboring a prejudice against Jews?
"I can deny that preterism is anti-semitic. As surprising as it may seem, it is actually consistent futurism that logically fosters "Jew"-hatred. Here are some verses that show this to be true:

And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the Great City which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:8)

This verse designates Jerusalem as "Sodom and Egypt" because it was in Jerusalem that the Lord Jesus was crucified. If we are to say this verse refers to a time in our future and is not yet fulfilled, then we must also say that Jerusalem remains the spiritual "Sodom and Egypt" to this very day because of its Messianic blood-guilt, and that it must remain so indicted until the Judgment of Rev. 11:13-19 is fulfilled sometime in our future. This conclusion is inescapable if the passage has yet to be fulfilled.

And if Rev. 11:13-19 is yet unfulfilled, this logically implies that Paul's indictment against Jews must also remain intact to this very day, specifically, that "the Jews [who "killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets"] ...are ...hostile to all men" and that "they always fill up the measure of their sins." (I Thess. 2:14-16)

Consistent futurism logically produces a very dangerous ambiguity and ambivalence toward modern-day "Jews" in that, on the one hand, they are in some sense "God's chosen people," while on the other hand they remain a blood-guilty race of enemies (Rom. 11:28) who are opposed to all men, and whose metropolis is "Egypt" and "Sodom" until Revelation 11 is fulfilled. This is the hateful fruit of consistent futurism."
More Preterist lies. Premil/Dispensationalist/futurists have not been known to use the cited passages to justify hatred towards Jews nor have the cited passages led any among that camp to justify hatred towards Jews. To a Premil/Disp/futurist, antisemitism is anathema.
The cited chapter from the book of Revelation describes a time yet to come and simply describes what the moral and spiritual state of Jerusalem will be when the events of chapter eleven will come to pass and what causes a sudden paradigm shift in the moral and spiritual condition of Jerusalem at that time; from one of irreverence and depravity to one of fear and trembling of and reverence towards God.
Paul’s indictment was not against all Jews but against those who in their wickedness had the Lord crucified and persisted in silencing the preaching of the Gospel. They were not hostile to all men in the sense that they hated the rest of humanity, but in the sense that they hated the Gospel so much that they did not even want the Gentiles to receive it. They would have rather had the Gentiles be converted to the Old Covenant system rather than allow them to embrace Christ.

Pre-millennials also recognize that Paul knew that Jews were coming to Christ in his day (Rom. 11:5) and that eventually, Israel as a nation people would come to embrace Christ as their Messiah. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26) It is those of Preterist leanings who might deny that this will ever happen.

If anything at all, it is those who hate the Gospel that would use the passages cited by your sources to accuse Christianity of encouraging hatred towards a people because they neither understand nor have any interest in understanding the intent of what the cited passages are actually communicating, even in light of the fact that Paul desired for all of his people to embrace Christ.
"In the preterist doctrine, in contrast, Jerusalem was "given to the nations" by God in the late 60's, A.D., and the Great City was then trampled under foot until it was destroyed in A. D. 70. In those terrible "days of vengeance," the wrath of God against the Jews came to the utmost (I Thess. 2:16; Heb. 10:26-31) and they paid the price for their Messianic blood-guilt to the last penny (Lk. 12:54-59)."
While there is no denial that Israel and Jerusalem faced judgment for their rejection of the Messiah, the Romans bore rule over Jerusalem even before the 60’s A.D.
"After that day, the blood-descendants of Abraham became --covenantally speaking-- simply one of the many ethnic classes in the family of man (Eph. 3:15).
There is not one ethnic group (or "race") of men today that is in any sense rejected by God or favored by God over others, but all are freely accepted in Christ and are made One through faith in Him."

There is clearly no understanding why God called Israel to be a people set apart from all other nations in the first place. It was not because He ever favored them above all other people but to fulfill the promises concerning them which He made to their forefathers who had been devoted, obedient, and faithful to Him and placed the faith in Him that He found pleasing in His sight.
"How many lives would have been saved if this preterist view of Israel in Bible prophecy had been taught instead of consistent futurism?
Probably millions."

It was Preterist minded Catholics who during the Inquisitions had persecuted the Jews so severely that they had to practice their faith in secret and it was Preterist minded Protestants like Martin Luther who continued that legacy of antisemitism in the Church when it should have been opposed by and put to an end by the reformation.

It was a Preterist minded KKK who, at the height of their power, routinely intimidated and terrorized Jewish people in America.

It was a Preterist minded Vatican who had resisted the re-establishment of Israel as a nation in their homeland and who aligned themselves with Adolf Hitler who killed six million Jews in the holocaust.
"Abraham's descendants were not cut off and "replaced" by a gentile church. The Jews never became an accursed race.
Yes, there was a wicked and perverse generation of accursed Jews in the Last Days. (Matt. 25:41; Mk. 11:21; Gal. 3:10) And yes, after A.D. 70 Abraham's descendants were no longer in any sense uniquely God's chosen people. But those facts in no way indicate that the Abrahamic blood-line became accursed.
Israel was hardened "in part" in the Last Days. (Rom. 11:25)"

If the Church has not replaced Israel, then Israel has not lost the role or status that it is destined to play in history and in prophecy fulfillment.
"It was through the world-changing, Last-Days work of the Holy Spirit that the "firstfruit" remnant of Israel was saved, (Rom. 11:5,16) and that "the fulness of the gentiles" was brought into Israel, (Rom. 11:25) and that the pre-Cross saints ("the dead" / "all Israel") were resurrected. (Rom. 11:15,26,28) All were gathered together at the Parousia of Christ and united into one eternal, spiritual, resurrected Body. (Rom. 11:26)"
Paul was speaking future-tense about the fullness of the Gentiles. It had not yet happened in his day and still has not happened yet. There is no mention of anything pertaining to a resurrection of any pre-Cross saints in the cited passages, and Romans 11:26 is in the future-tense, not past or present tense.
"In the ages before the Advent of the Son, God's people were not only separated from Him (as the animal sacrifices testified) and separated from each other (the divided kingdoms of Israel and Judah) and separated from the unclean, gentile world, but wars with each other and wars with gentiles, and ultimately Death itself, separated every son of the kingdom from the worship of the Father.
Through the power of the Cross of Christ, those "old things" of "tears," "death," "sorrow," "outcry" and "pain" passed away in the end of the age. (Rev. 21:4) In His Parousia, the historic kingdom was transformed."

This present age has not ended. In this present world there is still pain, death, tears, outcry, and grief. But in the heavens and earth that are to come, these things will be done away with because there will be no more death or curse.
"The Church, which Israel's Messiah bought with His own blood, was not the replacement or condemnation of biblical Israel. (Jn. 3:17) It was its fulfillment. Christ's Kingdom today is the full and perfect realization of the hope and goal of Old-Testament Israel."
This much is true, and they will realize that goal. (Rom. 11:26)
"Good questions and answers. I have said from the beginning of my sojourn with preterism that unless you say that the specific generation that cursed and killed Jesus came under the blood curse (on us and our children) then all Jews are cursed. So, I can in no way endorse the charge and roundly deny that preterism is anti-semitic. Those rebellious, stiff-necked Jews that Jesus called a brood of vipers, a synagogue of satan and children of the devil were cursed and judgement came down on their head.
As far as "replacement" goes, I have never understood this charge. The Jews were the first Christians and Paul said that everything jewish was excrement compared to Christ."

Paul never went so far as to claim that anything Jewish was excrement. He himself was a Jew, but said that those things were a shadow of things to come as pertaining to Christ and were in and of themselves not the reality, but Christ is the reality.
Thanks for expounding on that and proving my point concerning Preterists not being anti-Jewish/Judaism, [anti-semitic is against both the religions of Judaism and Islam [not the people themselves]] and when I get time I will also expound on that.
Meanwhile, I recommend these 2 threads concerning the Sanctuary and cursed OC Judaism Priesthood, which is still cursed

It is the OC Mosaic religion of JUDAISM which is cursed and useless after 70ad!
The court outside of the Sanctuary in Reve 11:2 is being "CAST OUT OUTSIDE" of the Temple
I believe this could symbolize Herod's Temple and the Sanctuary inside of it.

Which Temple/Court/Sanctuary is shown in Revelation 11:1-2--Herod's Temple or Future?
Revelation 11
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485> of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833>[laver, altar of sacrifice/priests] outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be treading forty two months.
OC Mosaic Priesthood cursed forever?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world ; the striking verification which they afford of so many of the prophecies, both of the Old and New Testament, and the powerful arguments of the divine authority of the Scriptures which are thence derived.......

The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins
Is this curse on the OC Mosaic Jewish priesthood permanent?
Especially since the destruction of the Temple and Sanctuary in the 1st century?


Hosea 4:6
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being Priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

3994 merah from 779;
an execration:--curse.

Malachi 2
1 “And now, O priests, this command is for you. 2 If you will not listen, if you will not take it to heart to give honor to my name, says the Lord of hosts, then I will send the curse<3994> upon you and I will curse your blessings.
Indeed, I have already cursed them, because you do not lay it to heart.
3 Behold, I will rebuke your offspring and spread dung on your faces, the dung of your offerings,
and you shall be taken away with it

7 For the lips of a Priest should guard knowledge, and people should seek instruction from his mouth, for he is the messenger of the Lord of hosts.
8 But you have turned aside from the way. You have caused many to stumble by your instruction. You have corrupted the covenant of Levi, says the Lord of hosts,
9 and so I make you despised and abased before all the people, inasmuch as you do not keep my ways but show partiality in your instruction.”
====================================================
Hebrews 7:12
For being changed
/translated<3346> the Priesthood,
out of necessity also, of Law a change/translation<3331> is becoming,

Revelation 1:6

And makes us kings and priests to the God and Father Him. To Him the glory and the might into the ages of the ages. Amen.
Revelation 5:10
And Thou make them kings and priests to our God and we shall be reigning on the land.
The Levitical priesthood is so over, but we are forever priests after the order of Melchizadek
Oh wow, spread the dung you've been eating on your faces, pretty strong language.^_^
No longer a need for the Levitical priesthood ... our High Priest is Jesus and He is in the sanctuary/tabernacle in heaven.
Hebrews 4:14-16
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven,[a] Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess.
Hebrews 9:11-10:12
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
The OP was this: Is the OC Levitical Priesthood cursed forever?

The ceremonial/sacrificial system ended was nailed to the cross. It is no longer needed because Jesus is our high priest in the sanctuary in heaven.

If one accepts cursed as (above) being eliminated (on earth) in regard specifically to the OT Levitical Priesthood/ceremonial system, then I guess one can express it in those terms. I do not like to express it that way because Jesus is our high priest in the sanctuary in heaven and His priesthood still exists and don't want people to loose sight of that and possibly think/say the priesthood does not exist there (in heaven) because it (the earthly system) was "cursed" possibly confusing it with the heavenly one.

"Wouldn't the "princes" in Hosea 2:10 be referring to the Jewish Rulers/Priest in 1st Century Jerusalem?"

I don't find a reference to "princes" in Hosea 2:10, so am assuming you mean Hosea 5:10

In chapter 5, Hosea the prophet speaks for the Lord unto the priests and unto the princes of Israel, unto the house of the king. So was speaking to both the princes and the priests.
From what I can find

Hosea began his prophetic activity during the reign of Jeroboam II (c. 786–746 bc). His prophetic announcements indicate that he was active until near the fall (721 bc) of the northern kingdom of Israel, the scene of his entire ministry.
Feel like maybe there is some other point(s) you are trying to get to? Not sure? Perhaps TMI (too much information) for me at once ;o)
God Bless.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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An interesting thread on the curse upon Israel and Judah of the flesh:

National Israel is cursed forever !
National Israel is cursed forever ! (2)

quote OP:
Mk 11:11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

The nation of Israel at one time in world history was representive of Gods covenant people here on earth and had many spiritual advantages over and above all other nations of the world..
rom 3:
1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
The oracles of God, meaning in short, important spiritual matters of the True God..
rom 9:
3 or I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Much had been given to them as a nation in order to preserve her seperated from all other nations, in order for the messiah, to be born under Gods Law, to die the accursed for the seed of abraham..
Now Israels history as the special covenant people of God is riddled with unfaithfulness to God and apostacy, however, God tolerated her exisitnce up unto the promised seed was born, lived and died under the Law..
After the death of christ, of which national Israel was the chief culprit in bringing about, God Judged that nation as unworthy of eternal life

acts 13:
45But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

This is here a final confirmation of God rejecting and leaving israel, the etnic jews under His Judgement..

This is confirmed too in
matt 21:33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

israel as a nation , ethnic wise, had lost her distinction and spiritual privileges of being that nation that represented the kingdom of God on earth, and that privilege was being granted to a nation, the gentile church, which would bear that precious spiritual fruit unto God..This is too expressed in

rom 11:15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

They have been cast away..and this casting away is final, as far as nationally is concerned, but not individually..but national Israel who, because of her favoured position, should have bore fruit, because of the outward advantages, which the fig tree indicated, but did not bear fruit, God cursed that nation, and that forever..

14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfieted, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

matt 21:
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? 43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. It was the Lords doings, and as the wise man says:

ecc 3:14I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
National Israel's rejection and curse is final..
Many have been deceived to think that Gods Israel, to whom all the promises were made, is a particular race of people, but its not, Gods Israel to whom pertains the promises is ethnically diversified, comprised of men and women of all nationalites, its not a people of race, but of grace..

Jesus has given many indications that Israel according to the flesh was not the chosen People of God..and that their nation would be cut off even from its earthly privileges of once being in a National Covenant relationship with God..

Matt 21:
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The Kingdom of God shall be Taken from you..and that once and for all..

All the earthly Glory Israel once had as being a People of God, a represenation of the Kingdom of God on earth, well that has been taken away from them by God..

Jesus was announcing her end and at the same time annoucing Gods New representative Nation, though really not new, but now being more manifested.. This Covenant people will be highlighted with both jew and gentiles for here on out, the Israel of God. This People [The Israel of God] did exist in the OT but was mostly jewish people who existed in national israel, but now would be the time for the gathering in of the gentiles who were of the Israel of God..

Look at the context of Matt 21 and it gives us clear evidence of the end of national Israel :

33Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
45And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
And again this post on what land the OC Nation of Judah [Judah,Benjamin, and portion to Levi]is entitled to......
Eze 48:22
“Moreover, apart from the possession of the Levites and the possession of the city which are in the midst of what belongs to the prince,
the area between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin shall belong to the prince.
311204_629a008cfd964c4ff341fd50e44ed610.gif
 
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BABerean2

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The scripture also states that both the nation of Israel and the Church will abide forever in Christ.

Cut the following words of Christ out of your Bible, and maybe you can make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Paul had to correct Peter in the Book of Galatians for treating the Jewish Christians differently than the Gentile Christians.
Why are you trying to make the same error as Peter?

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Cut the following words of Christ out of your Bible, and maybe you can make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.


.
Dispensatinalist futurist are the tuffest nuts to crack......stiff necked.......

Two-peoples-and-two-meanings systems
This thread will be posted at "Eschatology--Endtimes & Prophecy" as well.

Those who believe there are two peoples of God will inevitably end up with a very different idea of "Eschatology--Endtimes & Prophecy". They see about 10,000 feet of concrete between the two, so that whatever took place at the coming of the Gospel has nothing to do with the other group of people. In fact, a full-blown restoration or return to the other group never does, or needs to, show up in Acts, in NT letters, in any of the MO of the apostles; it's "just there." It doesn't matter what NT passages say about promises to the other people, God doesn't "change," so any passage at all from the OT has to happen, no matter what the NT says.

Parallel to this is the "two meanings" of Mt 24 &//s (Mk 13, Lk 19&21). Becasue of the two peoples, it is absolutely clear to these good people that Jesus was perfectly normal in giving the most scattered of explanations. Utterly urgent warnings...for people thousands of years in the future! Why, of course. Wasn't he that schitzophrenic all through his ministry? How could I have missed it? No, I think he was completely coherent about the events that would take place in that generation, with a bit of an echo that if something would happen in the distant future it would at least copy or replicate what was described:

a pretend 'messianic' antichrist(s),
a failed messianic war for the land of Judea,
Sabbath (ie Mosaic law) police making many miserable...etc

A person needs to sort out:
1, whether the NT is the authoritative statement about the two peoples in Eph 2-3 etc (as opposed to popular prophecy teachers now), and
2, where he goes with #1 into prophecy. They don't go to the same place.

Why would the plainly stated doctrinal passages of the NT never mention anything in the future for Israel--I mean not even the slightest 'need' for any prophecy to be fulfilled--in their treatments of the promises, shape, destiny, history and conclusion of Israel's role in the arrival of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Whenever I hear that 2nd century church fathers wrote about Revelation like the popular prophecy teachers of today, I have to place this beside the remark I hear all the time from 'messianic' friends: that shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem, the church immersed in anti-semitism (as though the destruction of Jerusalem was the only statement by God about such things). Both cannot be true, and both have lost their grip, as far as I can tell.

--Inter
Two-peoples-and-two-meanings theology
This thread will be posted at Dispensationalism as well.

Those who believe there are two peoples of God will inevitably end up with a very different idea of "Eschatology--Endtimes & Prophecy". They see about 10,000 feet of concrete between the two, so that whatever took place at the coming of the Gospel has nothing to do with the other group of people. In fact, a full-blown restoration or return to the other group never does, or needs to, show up in Acts, in NT letters, in any of the MO of the apostles; it's "just there." It doesn't matter what NT passages say about promises to the other people, God doesn't "change," so any passage at all from the OT has to happen, no matter what the NT says.

Parallel to this is the "two meanings" of Mt 24 &//s (Mk 13, Lk 19&21). Becasue of the two peoples, it is absolutely clear to these good people that Jesus was perfectly normal in giving the most scattered of explanations. Utterly urgent warnings...for people thousands of years in the future! Why, of course. Wasn't he that schitzophrenic all through his ministry? How could I have missed it? No, I think he was completely coherent about the events that would take place in that generation, with a bit of an echo that if something would happen in the distant future it would at least copy or replicate what was described:

a pretend 'messianic' antichrist(s),
a failed messianic war for the land of Judea,
Sabbath (ie Mosaic law) police making many miserable...etc

A person needs to sort out:
1, whether the NT is the authoritative statement about the two peoples in Eph 2-3 etc (as opposed to popular prophecy teachers now), and
2, where he goes with #1 into prophecy. They don't go to the same place. Why would the plainly stated doctrinal passages of the NT never mention anything in the future for Israel--I mean not even the slightest 'need' for any prophecy to be fulfilled--in their treatments of the promises, shape, destiny, history and conclusion of Israel's role in the arrival of the redemption that is in Christ Jesus?

Whenever I hear that 2nd century church fathers wrote about Revelation like the popular prophecy teachers of today, I have to place this beside the remark I hear all the time from 'messianic' friends: that shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem, the church immersed in anti-semitism (as though the destruction of Jerusalem was the only statement by God about such things). Both cannot be true, and both have lost their grip, as far as I can tell.

--Inter
 
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That must be dispensationalists.

They know more about Jews than Jews know about themselves.

And every genuine dispensationalist should be rejoicing with every genuine Jew in the reality of ubiquity. Why?

Because that reality represents the full and complete literal dispensational fulfillment of God's promises to Abraham; that in his seed, literal Jews, all families of the earth would be blessed.

It's nothing less than dispensational utopia.

Why are you not rejoicing?


You must believe that Haaretz is the only source that Jews rely on for their news, education, information and theology and you really don't seem to comprehend how all nations are blessed through Abraham and his seed.
 
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National Israel, by which you mean the Jewish State of Israel, surely won't continue their apostasy, atheism, LGBT parades and Jesus rejection; because they will be destroyed and gone. The judgment and destruction of Judah is prophesied over 20 times in the Bible. Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27
You fail to see this truth because as a 'rapture to heaven' believer, you must have an 'Israel' on earth while you sit in heaven. This will not and cannot happen.


Scripture states that ungodliness and wickedness would be prevalent among the Jewish people, but that it would also be purged from them. The prophet Zechariah tell us how many of the Jews will be left in the land after that purge when Christ returns (Zech. 13:9) and there will be a large enough remnant of the people to still remain a viable nation and to recover from the terrible times that they are destined to endure.


The Promises of God are to be fulfilled through Jesus. 2 Corinthians 1:19-22
There is only one people of God and they are the people who have freely accepted Jesus as their Savior and Redeemer. Jew and Gentile; people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:10
But regarding the issue of who is the real Israel; First and foremost they must be faithful Christian believers. Then, as God has planned it, the majority of them will be actual, traceable descendants of Jacob. Only as we go into our heritage of the holy Land, will these things be reveled to us by the Lord. Ezekiel 37:21, Romans 8:16-18


Jesus must fulfill all promises and all things foretold exactly as written because He came to fulfill the scriptures, not destroy them. (Mt. 5:17) The nation of Israel and the Church will continue to remain separate distinct entities and yet the Church consists of both Jew and Gentile.

Ultimately, it is foretold that only those Jews who finally call out for their Messiah will be delivered from destruction and it is they who receive their Messiah who will be what is left of the nation of Israel and it is through them that Israel will become the exalted nation that God destined them to be.
 
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keras

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Scripture states that ungodliness and wickedness would be prevalent among the Jewish people, but that it would also be purged from them. The prophet Zechariah tell us how many of the Jews will be left in the land after that purge when Christ returns (Zech. 13:9) and there will be a large enough remnant of the people to still remain a viable nation and to recover from the terrible times that they are destined to endure.

Jesus must fulfill all promises and all things foretold exactly as written because He came to fulfill the scriptures, not destroy them. (Mt. 5:17) The nation of Israel and the Church will continue to remain separate distinct entities and yet the Church consists of both Jew and Gentile.

Ultimately, it is foretold that only those Jews who finally call out for their Messiah will be delivered from destruction and it is they who receive their Messiah who will be what is left of the nation of Israel and it is through them that Israel will become the exalted nation that God destined them to be.
You have fallen into the serious error of thinking the Jews are the only Israel. The Jewish people represent the two Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. They are NOT as many as the sands of the sea and they have not received the Blessings that the other 10 tribes have.

Your belief that God has Two Peoples and Two Promises, is not Biblical and is totally refuted by Jesus. John 17:20-23
After the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, then the Jewish remnant will come back with their Christian brethren. Jeremiah 50:4-5
We never go to live in heaven, as many have been deceived into thinking.
 
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You must believe that Haaretz is the only source that Jews rely on for their news, education, information and theology and you really don't seem to comprehend how all nations are blessed through Abraham and his seed.

Who knows more about Jews and their history: Haaretz, or dispensationalists?

Who is Abraham's seed?

Isn't this how dispensationalism says all nations are blessed through Abraham and his seed?
 
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Thanks for expounding on that and proving my point concerning Preterists not being anti-Jewish/Judaism, [anti-semitic is against both the religions of Judaism and Islam [not the people themselves]] and when I get time I will also expound on that.


Apparently you are not able to tell between my dialogue and the dialogue of the sources you cited in spite of my efforts to ensure there was a distinction between the two when responding to a post because if you were able to tell the difference you would have clearly seen that my response post was a rebuttal and did not expound on or prove any point about Preterism not being anti-Jewish.

Futhermore, anti-Semitism is hatred of Jews whether they practice Judaism or not; hatred of an entire people because of the lineage they belong to.



The court outside of the Sanctuary in Reve 11:2 is being "CAST OUT OUTSIDE" of the Temple


The scripture does not say that the outer court is cast outside of the temple as though it was no longer a part of the temple. It still is, but John was commanded to measure only the areas of the inner sanctuary.


I believe this could symbolize Herod's Temple and the Sanctuary inside of it.


We do not know the measurements of what John was commanded to measure in comparison to Herod's temple. Therefore we cannot be dogmatic about this. Herod's temple technically is not really his temple by the way. It is the post-exile temple which he rennovated and made additions to.
 
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Who knows more about Jews and their history: Haaretz, or dispensationalists?

Who is Abraham's seed?

Isn't this how dispensationalism says all nations are blessed through Abraham and his seed?


Do you think that all Jews agree with what Haaretz propagates? And again, you display no understanding about how all nations are blessed through Abraham?
 
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You have fallen into the serious error of thinking the Jews are the only Israel. The Jewish people represent the two Tribes of Judah and Benjamin. They are NOT as many as the sands of the sea and they have not received the Blessings that the other 10 tribes have.

Your belief that God has Two Peoples and Two Promises, is not Biblical and is totally refuted by Jesus. John 17:20-23
After the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, that will virtually depopulate the entire Middle East, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, then the Jewish remnant will come back with their Christian brethren. Jeremiah 50:4-5
We never go to live in heaven, as many have been deceived into thinking.


I am afraid that you yourself are in error because you overlook that according to Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther, all Israelites are from that point on are called Jews and it has been that way to this day.

Jesus, in His prayer for all of His followers does not refute the doctrine I have been defending and making a case for because there is nothing in those words that disqualifies the nation of Israel from their status of being that nation and people whom God had set aside for Himself to be His representatives to the rest of the world.

Granted that they have failed miserably at that, but by and large, so have many of us with the Church. Paul, while giving the title of Israel to the Church in the spiritual sense, never said that the Jews by blood ceased to be Israel in the earthly sense. In fact, he acknowledges that they still are Israel in the earthly sense, yet not in the spiritual (Rom. 9:6) which is why it is we can never call the present nation of Israel “fake or “false.” Paul did not.

Yet he does make clear that merely being a child of Abraham does not save nor gain favor with God. It is Christ who saves, and when the wrath of God does come, it will not merely decimate the middle east, but the entire world for that matter which why Isaiah speaks of the day that a man will become more rare than even gold. (Is. 13:12)
 
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Cut the following words of Christ out of your Bible, and maybe you can make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Paul had to correct Peter in the Book of Galatians for treating the Jewish Christians differently than the Gentile Christians.
Why are you trying to make the same error as Peter?

.


Actually the passages you just quoted are exactly what those propagating a Two Peoples of God would be expected to use to make such a doctrine more persuasive. More than one fold of sheep implies more than one flock and more than one flock implies more than one people at least as far as the present time is concerned.

That they will be gathered into one fold, they would argue, is an event yet to come yet the doctrine I am propagating has been none other than that which teaches that God is faithful in keeping all of His promises to all people He makes them to. (Heb. 10:23)
 
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