Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

SkyWriting said:
No truth in scripture is beyond the influence of additional research.

Dan 12:2 - everlasting contempt is pretty ambiguous.
Rev 21:8, 20:15 - it appears that the second death is a Jewish concept, which generally meant destruction.
Rom 6:23, 5:21 - indeed; for Paul, the primary punishment for sin was death. Indeed 6:7 says that death frees from sin.
Rev 20:10 - the devil, beast and false prophet are said to be tormented forever, but that whole thing seems to have gone away with the new heavens and new earth. At any rate, normal humans suffer the second death in the lake.
2 Thes 1:9 - destruction, not continuing torment
John 3:15-16 - indeed, those who believe have eternal life; the implied fate of others is "perish," die, though that's hardly very explicit. A more explicit treatment is in John 12:32, which seems to see them joining Christ once Satan is defeated
Mark 9:48. This image is from Is 66:24. The worms are eating the dead bodies of God's enemies. There's no indication that they are still suffering.
Mark 9:49. Everyone is salted with fire. Note, everyone. This doesn't seem to be punishment for the evil, but rather testing. See 1 Cor 3:12.

No eternal torment here, except possibly for the devil, beast and false prophet, but I doubt even that.

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

I’m actually surprised by this discussion. I thought there was more support for eternal torment. So far I haven’t seen anything other than Mat 25:46.

Major1 · Aug 17, 2019

hedrick said:
2 Thes 1:9 - probably indicates destruction, not continuing torment.

Dan 12:2 - everlasting contempt is pretty ambiguous, don't you think? It could be anything from a lower status in the resurrection to destruction. It doesn't appear to be intended to talk about specific status in the afterlife at all.

Rev 20:10 - Maybe. It's dangerous to get too literal about the Rev, but the dominant picture for humans is destruction. That's what the second death seems to have meant in Jewish terminology. It's the devil, the beast, and the false prophet who are said to be tormented forever, though I think that likely ends with the new heavens and earth.

Mat 25:41 - may well intend everlasting suffering, though as always we need to be cautious about just how literally eternal is meant.

I don't think you've found anything beyond Mat 25:46

How many other Scriptures does there need to be in order for ONE to be accepted as the Word of God.

Where does that kind of theology come from my brother????

2 Thess. 1:9...…..
According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, the punishment of unbelievers in hell will consist not only of suffering in the "fires," but also banishment from the presence of the Lord. The word translated "presence" is literally "face." Whereas believers will see the Lord face to face (1 Corinthians 13:12), unbelievers will be driven from the face of the Lord and will never know the joy of being in His presence and the delight of observing the splendor of His power. Their knowledge and shame at this destiny is part of their suffering in eternity.

Daniel 9:2...………..
"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

There are two separate destinies for believers and unbelievers--everlasting shame and everlasting blessing. "CONTEMPT" is a subjective word for sure. However, the word "EVERLASTING" IS NOT and that is the point.

The word here in Daniel that properly denotes eternal; as in Matthew 25:46, the word translated “everlasting” (punishment) is the same which is rendered “eternal” (life), and means what is to endure forever.

So the Greek here, where the same word occurs, as in Matthew 25:46 - “some to everlasting life,” εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον eis zōēn aiōnion “and some to everlasting contempt,” εἰς αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον eis aischunēn aiōnion - is one which would denote a strict and proper eternity.

The word “contempt” (דראון derâ'ôn ) means, properly, a repulse; and then aversion, abhorrence. The meaning here is aversion or abhorrence - the feeling with which we turn away from what is loathsome, disgusting, or hateful. Then it denotes the state of mind with which we contemplate the vile and the abandoned; and in this respect expresses the emotion with which the wicked will be viewed on the final trial.

Revelation 20:10 is as clear as a summer day in Florida.

Some individuals believe hell is a condition of suffering in this life, but this is not how the Bible describes it. Jesus told a story about a rich man who died and went to Hades. In that dreadful place of conscious suffering, the rich man cried out, saying, "I am in anguish in this flame" (Luke 16:24).

Hell is a place that awaits future occupants. The concept of real, unending suffering in the lake of fire does not meet with some people's understanding of God's character. Because God is loving, they assume He would never send anyone to a place of unending torment. Their reasoning is unbiblical and contradicts what we read in this verse. God's holiness, righteousness, and justice are just are real as His love, and they have as much to do with our eternity as well.

Mat 25:41 -
AGREED!

Not only the devil, but the beast and false prophet, for the word is in the plural number: and this will be the case of all wicked men, of all whose minds are enmity to God and Christ, and to his people; and is a proof of the eternity of hell torments.
Revelation 20:10 - And the devil... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary

FineLinen · Aug 17, 2019

hedrick said:
I’m actually surprised by this discussion. I thought there was more support for eternal torment. So far I haven’t seen anything other than Mat 25:46.

Dear Hedrick: Nothing surprises me on Christian threads LOL!

There is support for basanidzo found in Scripture. In that regards, the everlasting destruction thread will one day hopefully pursue, but not today, and most assuredly NOT on this thread by the D.D. aspirant F.L.

May His exceedingly wonderful love be yours today.

Major1 · Aug 17, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Major1: There is one sure way. I have been hit dead on with a flaming ball of "ball lightning" 50 years ago. Thirty years ago the Father spoke 6 words to me that nearly killed me in spirit soul and body. Just ask Him to continue killing me.

I am enjoying you and those who wander this way. May each of us stand before the Flaming swords of the Lord swirling in every direction!

I thought that your wife ran you off of the computer. I guess you showed her who the boss in your family really is!!!!

Lord...…..PLEASE continue to kill my friend "finelinen:"with the lightning of your preciouses Word"!!!!

Slay Him and bind him to the truth and bless him and his family, IN Jesus name amen!

Major1 · Aug 17, 2019

hedrick said:
I’m actually surprised by this discussion. I thought there was more support for eternal torment. So far I haven’t seen anything other than Mat 25:46.

I love you brother but I must say to you that you are being a little selective IMO.

I have posted Rev. 14:9-11 for you...…….
"And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.”

When the last book of the Bible describes the flames of hell, it does not speak of consumption but says the lost “will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

Also, 2 Thessalonians 1:8 has been posted...……………...
" in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus".

Then of course there is Matt. 25:41...……...
“Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels” .

Mark 9:43-48...………..
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched".

Luke 16:22-25 …….
"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.' 25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."

IMO.........there has been more than enough Scripture to prove that there will be eternal torment for the wicked lost for all of time and eternity.

Now the real question must be..........Why don't you accept the Word of God?

Major1 · Aug 17, 2019

FineLinen said:
Dear Hedrick: Nothing surprises me on Christian threads LOL!

There is support for basanidzo found in Scripture. In that regards, the everlasting destruction thread will one day hopefully pursue, but not today, and most assuredly NOT on this thread by the D.D. aspirant F.L.

May His exceedingly wonderful love be yours today.

For all the other country boys out there...…"basanidzo" is a Greek word that means ….
"to torture:--pain, toil,torment, toss, vex."

FineLinen · Aug 17, 2019

Major1 said:
I thought that your wife ran you off of the computer. I guess you showed her who the boss in your family really is!!!!

Lord...…..PLEASE continue to kill my friend "finelinen:"with the lightning of your preciouses Word"!!!!

Slay Him and bind him to the truth and bless him and his family, IN Jesus name amen!

“Before the truth sets you free, it tends to make you miserable.” -Richard Rohr-

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

Major1 said:
I love you brother but I must say to you that you are being a little selective IMO.

I'm looking at the references that have been posted.

Rev 14:9-22. What's the relationship between this and Rev 20:11 ff? Are those judged in 14 exempted from the final judgement in 20? That seems unlikely. In 20 death and Hades give up their dead, and they are judged finally. Eventually they end up in the second death. So despite the wording, 14 isn't a description of their permanent state. Remember, "eternal" just isn't used as literally as you'd like to think.
I've already commented on 2 Thes 1:8. 1:9 says they are destroyed. Fire is certainly a reasonable way of talking about destruction. It's used that way in the OT.
Mark 9:43-48. I've already responded to this. This is a quotation of Is. In Isaiah the fire is destroying dead bodies. The fire and worm may not die, but the people are already dead. (Furthermore, several eternal fires in the OT are no longer burning, so as often, "eternal" is not being used literally.)
Luke 16:22. It's not said that this is eternal. Indeed it's described as Hades. In 1st Cent Judaism, where there was a distinction between temporary and permanent punishment, Hades was temporary. This is also an obvious use of a popular account. Do you really expect to be judged by Father Abraham? This is like talking about Peter at the pearly gates. No one would understand that as literal. Yes, this guy is being punished, but the story takes no position in whether it's temporary or permanent.

IMO.........there has been more than enough Scripture to prove that there will be eternal torment for the wicked lost for all of time and eternity.

IMO..... You've put together a long list of Scriptures, none of which says what you want it to say. Numbers don't count. Exegesis does.

In the 1st Cent, Jews had varying ideas of the afterlife. Some didn't believe in it at all. Some thought punishment was temporary, others that the wicked were destroyed. There was some belief in eternal torment. In an environment like this you can't take all references to punishment as reflecting any specific concept unless it says so.

I think Paul and John explicitly say that all end up in Christ. I think the Rev and 2 Thes expect the wicked to be destroyed.

Matthew may well believe in eternal torment, but that depends upon reading "eternal" literally. That's not necessarily accurate. However from the overall message of Matthew, I think it's quite likely that he really means eternal torment.

I'm aware that this kind of disagreement is unacceptable to conservatives, but it's what the various authors say. Shouting "the word of God!" doesn't make the NT writers say something other than what they actually say. Redefining "all" and "destruction" isn't reasonable exegesis, any more than redefining "eternal" on the other side.

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

There's an interesting theological issue here. When I was in college I read a book "The Peril of Modernizing Jesus." It pointed out just how different Jesus was in culture and assumptions. One of the differences is that he saw things in a supernatural context that we don't. If you look carefully at the NT, Jesus was engaged in a battle with supernatural evil.

In post Reformation theology, we assume that people's sin is primarily an individual matter. We inherit a fallen nature, and we sin. But that wasn't the only or even the primary understanding in Jesus' day. Jesus' ministry was a battle with Satan. Satan was the root of sin, and people were his victims.

Christians feel that we can't just ignore sin. Someone has to be held responsible. Now this is modified even in the modern perspective by Jesus' death. But for Paul, and probably Jesus, what was needed was defeating Satan and the powers beholden to him. They were the source of our problems. Once that has been done, it's certainly possible to argue that justice has been done, and victims of evil can be freed without offending justice.

Luther accepted this position at times. In some places, he describes humans as passive, with God and Satan fighting over us. The Reformed tradition certainly accepted the existence of Satan, but I think for it the only real story is our corruption, and our restoration by Christ through faith. I believe the East has preserved at least some of the original context, which may be part of the reason that the East is willing to accept universalism as a hope, although not as a doctrine.

FineLinen · Aug 17, 2019

FineLinen said:
“Before the truth sets you free, it tends to make you miserable.” -Richard Rohr-

God is the Master Farmer. In farming you secure the best equipment to complete the job. When the truth begins to get uncomfortable, the Master is bringing you to Higher Ground.

Oldmantook · Aug 17, 2019

Major1 said:
NO sir, you are incorrect again.

I posted Scriptures to show you clearly that the phrase..."kings of the earth" can mean lost people or God's people depending upon the CONTEXT of the Scriptures listed.

There is NO contradiction at all. The Scriptures tell us that we have ONE chance to go to heaven and that is to accept Jesus Christ as our Master WHILE we are alive.

Death closes the door of salvation.

Allow me to ask you this. How many people were saved from the flood AFTER GOD closed the door of the Ark????

No one can get out of Hell once they arrive there.

Luke 16:26...….
“And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot: neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”

WHY is that so difficult for anyone to understand?????

The gulf is fixed. NO ONE LEAVES------EVER!

Notice another important fact. The rich man in Hell, prayed. People in Hell are praying today. Why? Because they have an interest in the eternal welfare of their loved ones who are left upon the earth.

Luke 16:27-28......….
'Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment,”

The key to the right understanding of this passage is verse 30,”...
"if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.”

The phrase kings of the earth in Revelation always refers to the enemies of God. The text plainly states that at some point in time, the kings of the earth enter into the New Jerusalem. Your excuse is that these kings of the earth who enter into the New Jesusalem are not the same kings of the earth portrayed elsewhere in Revelation. The is no textual evidence whatsoever in Revelation to support your excuse. John made no distinction in his use of that phrase. Therefore without such distinction, proper hermeneutics requires that the kings of the earth who go into the city are the same kings referenced elsewhere in Revelation.

The major problem with your belief is that it directly contradicts God's stated purpose for His creation which you are either unaware of or totally ignore.
Col 1:19-20 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
You believe no one leaves----ever! If that be true, then the vast majority of humankind is consigned to the lake of fire and they remain forever punished and unreconciled to God in direct contradiction to God's stated purpose in Col 1:19-20 to reconcile all things to himself. If you want to contradict God's stated purpose, you are free to do so but your view certainly does not align with Col 1:19-20.

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

Oldmantook said:
The phrase kings of the earth in Revelation always refers to the enemies of God. The text plainly states that at some point in time, the kings of the earth enter into the New Jerusalem.

I agree that it's an oddity.

The kings of the earth here is a reference to Is 60:3, so the phrase comes from Isaiah.

So we have two choices:

He's using "kings of the earth" consistently, and they somehow survive the judgement in 20:15.
He's using "kings of the earth" inconsistently. His normal use sees them as part of the powers that are destroyed, but due to Is 60, he uses the same phrase in his final vision of a restored heaven and earth.

I think the second option is more likely. The first would require the second death to be non-fatal (or exempt the kings from it). That's barely possible, but seems to contradict both its literal meaning and the most common usage in the Targums.

That the final vision doesn't include everyone seems clear from 21:8.

I agree with your understanding of Col, but I don't think the author of the Rev has the same vision as Paul and Col. Trying to make every NT author have the same vision of the future requires us to interpret some or all of them unnaturally.

Oldmantook · Aug 17, 2019

hedrick said:
I agree that it's an oddity.

The kings of the earth here is a reference to Is 60:3, so the phrase comes from Isaiah.

So we have two choices:

He's using "kings of the earth" consistently, and they somehow survive the judgement in 20:15.

He's using "kings of the earth" inconsistently. His normal use sees them as part of the powers that are destroyed, but due to Is 60, he uses the same phrase in his final vision of a restored heaven and earth.

I think the second option is more likely. The first would require the second death to be non-fatal (or exempt the kings from it). That's barely possible, but seems to contradict both its literal meaning and the most common usage in the Targums.

That the final vision doesn't include everyone seems clear from 21:8.

I agree with your understanding of Col, but I don't think the author of the Rev has the same vision as Paul and Col. Trying to make every NT author have the same vision of the future requires us to interpret some or all of them unnaturally.

Thanks for your input/insight. I presume that since we both agree that Scripture cannot contradict itself, it is up to us under the teaching of the Holy Spirit to try and make coherent sense of things.
If I side with #2 as you are inclined to do, then I would have to find scriptural evidence in John's Revelation to indicate that John is referring to two different groups, thus accounting for the apparent discrepancy. But I cannot find such reference to different identities of the kings of the earth so at that point I would be speculating - which I don't feel comfortable doing. Given that, I must take the plain meaning into account that these kings were always the enemies of God but somehow these same kings are allowed to enter into the City. Given this stance, it is then incumbent upon me to discover why and how? That is why I side with "evangelical universalism" because I believe it accommodates most of Scripture within it systematic theology. Given this, let's continue.

I'm assuming you cited Rev 21:8 as an objection so let's use that as a starting point.
"But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
No doubt, the kings of the earth who are God's sworn enemies and are vanquished at Jesus' return, are sentenced to the lake of fire. But where is this LOF? Rev 22:15 provides the answer as the LOF is just outside the New Jerusalem. Thus the kings of the earth are in the LOF which is outside the walls of the New Jerusalem. A pertinent question to ask at this point is: Why are the gates of the City not shut? Rev 21:25 "and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there." I believe the gates of the New Jesusalem are not shut because the nations and kings of the earth who are outside the City in the LOF will one day walk through it's gates after having been chastened by fire (Rev 21:24; 22:14). I think my interpretation coheres with Isaiah 60 which you referenced; particularly vs. 10-11. That is why I believe the enemies of God end up in the lake of fire but the gates of the New Jerusalem are kept open so that one day these chastened enemies can enter the city through its gates for "It is written: "'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.'" Rom 14:11

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

Oldmantook said:
Thanks for your input/insight. I presume that since we both agree that Scripture cannot contradict itself, it is up to us under the teaching of the Holy Spirit to try and make coherent sense of things.

No. That idea leads people to bias their exegesis to make one author agree with another. Or even with a theological perspective that isn't actually held by any of them.

It's better to let each author speak for himself, and take care of differences at a later stage, when we use the results of exegesis to synthesize theology. When you mix these two stages by demanding consistency of authors from your exegesis, you bias the evidence for theology, silencing or warping the evidence you need.

This particular exegesis requires an unlikely understanding of the second death.

Oldmantook · Aug 17, 2019

hedrick said:
No. That idea leads people to bias their exegesis to make one author agree with another. Or even with a theological perspective that isn't actually held by any of them.

It's better to let each author speak for himself, and take care of differences at a later stage, when we use the results of exegesis to synthesize theology. When you mix these two stages by demanding consistency of authors from your exegesis, you bias the evidence for theology, silencing or warping the evidence you need.

This particular exegesis requires an unlikely understanding of the second death.

Were not all the authors of the OT and NT books inspired to write under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit? Given this, there can be no contradiction between what they wrote.
As far as the second death is concerned, those who don't bow to the lordship of Jesus in their lives, take up their crosses and follow him, thus dying to themselves (first death) will have to enter the lake of fire and die to themselves there (second death).

vinsight4u · Aug 17, 2019

FineLinen · Aug 17, 2019

vinsight4u · Aug 17, 2019

FineLinen · Aug 18, 2019

vinsight4u said:
The wicked transgressors as to their bodies - and their worm that dieth not will be
looked upon by the ones in flesh. Those in flesh will abhor the wicked in the lake
of fire. It will be the time of the new earth.

Psalm 94:13 shows a pit is going to be dug for the wicked.

There is not going to be a resurrection for the bodies from the lake of
fire, nor will their names be added to the book of life.

Dear Vin: Please allow F.L. to be among the first to disclose that the all are raised to life, the same all who died in Adam are raised in Jesus Christ!

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 15 - New International Version

"For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive."

Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

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