Do not even eat with such a one...

Silverback · Aug 16, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Jesus never called anyone out.
Neither should we ever.
"Eating" refers to communion.

Jesus called out the Pharises, all the time, as well as the woman at the well.

ChicanaRose · Aug 16, 2019

SkyWriting said:
If the ego refuses to look for sin in ones self,
then the brain will look for "sin" in other people.
The brain will not be deterred.
You are being distracted from introspection.

When God said we had a plank in our eye
and a speck in the others eye.....that ratio remains steady.

You make some great points in general but perhaps not applicable to the OP.

In the case of Christians that @tuliplane speaks of, I could never advise her to go ahead and be close to them.

When someone is blatantly living in sin, it demonstrates a lack of guilt conscience. How can one establish a trust relationship with such person?

I used to be friends with someone who openly lived in sin (similar to what @tuliplane described) and she was also happy for her other church friend who lived a similar life style.

I eventually saw that she cannot be trusted with confidential information.

How are two related, you may ask. But her lack of guilt conscience in one area stemmed from her overall lack of guilt conscience. She did not feel guilty about a particular sin in her daily life, nor about betraying someone's confidence.

It is not possible to form a bond with a Christian blatantly living in sin. You could only politely greet her and pray for her from a distance.

Gregory Thompson · Aug 16, 2019

tuliplane said:
Something that I have been thinking about a lot lately is 1 Corinthians 5:11. This is specifically about the person who claims they are Christian, but is living in sin...even boasting about it. It is clear that we are not to associate with a person like this, not even to share a meal.

In these present times, I'm seeing more and more people who claim Christ embrace some of the very sins listed in this passage. I can scroll through facebook and see someone post about God's love only just to post acceptance of immorality not too long later; this person also lives with her boyfriend and child they have together. I've had a classmate who claimed she was Christian laugh about sleeping with her boyfriend; they're not together anymore and she has a new boyfriend who I've seen act inappropriately with her in public before they were "officially dating" and they even just went on vacation together. I know another girl who also claims she's Christian and lives with her boyfriend. My own sister is living in this way and sadly, we are not speaking because of it. She wanted nothing to do with me when I voiced how I felt about her lifestyle. These are just a few examples among what I am seeing a lot of lately.

I've interacted with all of these people, and yes, even shared a meal with them. I wasn't thinking too much about this verse then, but according to it, am I not to associate with them? What happens in the case where they study at the same university as you or work in the same workplace? Isn't that "associating" with them by the very definition of the word? The same passage says it is not talking about the people of the world, because to not deal with them we would have to leave this world. Obviously we aren't supposed to be best friends with the people of the world either, which leaves us free to do business with them, work with them, speak with them, etc. This must mean that for those who claim to be Christians and are living in blatant sin, that we cannot even associate with them in mundane everyday ways. How can we realistically do this, if say, they happen to be your coworker?

Is this verse talking about only the person engaging in such immorality, or does it also address those who are active supporters of it? I know of many who aren't committing immoral acts themselves, but they applaud those who do. They either think calling the person out on their sinful behavior will leave them feeling condemned and fear it will push them further from God, or they actually celebrate the lifestyle the "Christian" is living in the name of freedom and love. I am friends with someone else on facebook, an ordained reverend; instead of rebuking the other "Christian" friend who is falling away in faith, recently declared she is a witch, that she doesn't believe that the path she is on will lead to destruction and that she is in control of her power, gets the support and cheering of her new found freedom by the reverend instead. This left me so unsettled.

I don't understand why people who want to live in such a way don't just use their freewill and fully commit, since they are already doing these things anyway, rather than claiming Christ at the same time. It seems actually more complicated and less "freeing" if they want to be tied to the very faith that condemns these things. But I digress...

What I'm really wondering is how we follow this verse, especially in these times when so many say they follow God but live in sin. How do we navigate this issue in our everyday lives? How do we define "associating"? Is being employed by the same employer associating? Being friends on facebook? Are those who condone and even preach immorality while they themselves are not physically engaging in the sin on the same level as those who are?

There must be something we're missing here.

Jesus and the apostles dined Judas and he was all sorts of sinful.

timewerx · Aug 16, 2019

tuliplane said:
Something that I have been thinking about a lot lately is 1 Corinthians 5:11. This is specifically about the person who claims they are Christian, but is living in sin...even boasting about it. It is clear that we are not to associate with a person like this, not even to share a meal.

You're right on the money.

This teaching is repeated in 2 John 1:10-11

A LOT of Christians are not aware of this teaching and think it's okay to mingle with everyone. Nope.... If it's in the Bible, we probably should take heed of it...

Tone · Aug 16, 2019

tuliplane said:
What I'm really wondering is how we follow this verse, especially in these times when so many say they follow God but live in sin. How do we navigate this issue in our everyday lives? How do we define "associating"? Is being employed by the same employer associating? Being friends on facebook? Are those who condone and even preach immorality while they themselves are not physically engaging in the sin on the same level as those who are?

It would be a great testament to the watching world if they witnessed this done among "Christians". It is something that would have to be done very prayerfully, with true discernment:

Jude 1
"21keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life. 22And indeed, have mercy on those who doubt; 23save others by snatching them from the fire; and to still others, show mercy tempered with fear, hating even the clothing stained by the flesh."

I would say that if there is a spirit of humility about the offender, such that they mourn over their sins and strive to overcome--we should fight alongside them and never disassociate from them. Also, we should consider how new to the faith they are and be patient while they grow in wisdom and understanding.

As for those who publicly condone or preach immorality...they should be disassociated lest they cause divisions:

Jude 1
"18when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.” 19These are the ones who cause divisions,who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit."

timewerx · Aug 17, 2019

Michael Collum said:
There must be something we're missing here.

Jesus and the apostles dined Judas and he was all sorts of sinful.

Judas is part of the "master plan" as he will play the part of betraying Jesus....

...to fulfill Christ's mission on the cross. Always a time for everything...

Jesus did avoid certain places / people in other occassions.

Gregory Thompson · Aug 17, 2019

timewerx said:
Judas is part of the "master plan" as he will play the part of betraying Jesus....

...to fulfill Christ's mission on the cross. Always a time for everything...

Jesus did avoid certain places / people in other occassions.

Jesus spent time with people who would be excluded by this verse however, so something must be missing in understanding what it means. In any case, if at any time an interpretation presents an application of scripture that does the opposite of what Jesus did, I can put Jesus as first priority and ignore the other.

SkyWriting · Aug 17, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
When someone is blatantly living in sin, it demonstrates a lack of guilt conscience. How can one establish a trust relationship with such person?

So concealed murderers are easier to get along with? Hmmm.

I worked with a non-christian multiple murderer once
who had served 7 years. He was a very congenial guy.

SkyWriting · Aug 17, 2019

Silverback said:
Jesus called out the Pharises, all the time, as well as the woman at the well.

He called them out as religious leaders who were leading
people astray from the Truth and referred to them by
their group names and philosophies.

He never called out individuals for making sinful decisions.
He said "Neither do I condemn you" to individuals.

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

John 8:11
She said, “No one, Lord.” And Jesus said, “Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.”

Anthony2019 · Aug 17, 2019

I know many Christians and non-Christians whose actions and lifestyles I do not agree with.

If they are behaving in a way that disrupts the peace of others and causes real damage or harm, then it is only right that we should be concerned and, if necessary, intervene.

If, however, the person is causing no harm, then I am inclined to respect their right to choose how they wish to live. It is sometimes through making poor choices that we learn, from the consequences, how to make the right ones.

In my life, I have made some very poor decisions, but it is the unfailing love and faithfulness of many of my Christian friends that helped me through that difficult time.

I don't think it serves any purpose for Christians to create additional hardship for others by withdrawing the hand of friendship. It doesn't seem to me like a good way of living by the Golden Rule.

Sammy-San · Aug 17, 2019

tuliplane said:
Something that I have been thinking about a lot lately is 1 Corinthians 5:11. This is specifically about the person who claims they are Christian, but is living in sin...even boasting about it. It is clear that we are not to associate with a person like this, not even to share a meal.

In these present times, I'm seeing more and more people who claim Christ embrace some of the very sins listed in this passage. I can scroll through facebook and see someone post about God's love only just to post acceptance of immorality not too long later; this person also lives with her boyfriend and child they have together. I've had a classmate who claimed she was Christian laugh about sleeping with her boyfriend; they're not together anymore and she has a new boyfriend who I've seen act inappropriately with her in public before they were "officially dating" and they even just went on vacation together. I know another girl who also claims she's Christian and lives with her boyfriend. My own sister is living in this way and sadly, we are not speaking because of it. She wanted nothing to do with me when I voiced how I felt about her lifestyle. These are just a few examples among what I am seeing a lot of lately.

I've interacted with all of these people, and yes, even shared a meal with them. I wasn't thinking too much about this verse then, but according to it, am I not to associate with them? What happens in the case where they study at the same university as you or work in the same workplace? Isn't that "associating" with them by the very definition of the word? The same passage says it is not talking about the people of the world, because to not deal with them we would have to leave this world. Obviously we aren't supposed to be best friends with the people of the world either, which leaves us free to do business with them, work with them, speak with them, etc. This must mean that for those who claim to be Christians and are living in blatant sin, that we cannot even associate with them in mundane everyday ways. How can we realistically do this, if say, they happen to be your coworker?

Is this verse talking about only the person engaging in such immorality, or does it also address those who are active supporters of it? I know of many who aren't committing immoral acts themselves, but they applaud those who do. They either think calling the person out on their sinful behavior will leave them feeling condemned and fear it will push them further from God, or they actually celebrate the lifestyle the "Christian" is living in the name of freedom and love. I am friends with someone else on facebook, an ordained reverend; instead of rebuking the other "Christian" friend who is falling away in faith, recently declared she is a witch, that she doesn't believe that the path she is on will lead to destruction and that she is in control of her power, gets the support and cheering of her new found freedom by the reverend instead. This left me so unsettled.

I don't understand why people who want to live in such a way don't just use their freewill and fully commit, since they are already doing these things anyway, rather than claiming Christ at the same time. It seems actually more complicated and less "freeing" if they want to be tied to the very faith that condemns these things. But I digress...

What I'm really wondering is how we follow this verse, especially in these times when so many say they follow God but live in sin. How do we navigate this issue in our everyday lives? How do we define "associating"? Is being employed by the same employer associating? Being friends on facebook? Are those who condone and even preach immorality while they themselves are not physically engaging in the sin on the same level as those who are?

I think people dont fully realize that falling asleep in the same room as someone of the opposite sex has sexual connotations.

NoahSK · Aug 17, 2019

I've experienced first-hand how detrimental associating with Christians living in blatant sin can be. When I transferred from a public to a private school during the seventh grade, I found that many of my classmates, all of which called themselves Christians (I'm not one to judge whether they are or aren't), were doing the same sinful things I saw happening at the public school I had transferred from. After hanging out with them for long enough, and in an attempt to fit in (I was bullied a bit during that time), I ended up mimicking their sinful behavior, thinking that it was alright since they themselves were Christians too. This led me down a rabbit-hole of habitual sin for years that I've only recently recognized as not true Christian behavior, prompting me to do some self examination and question my life choices. It's also led me to my current struggle with doubting my salvation, etc. Long story short, don't hang out with these people, for your sake as well as theirs. Looking back, I think I would have been better off staying at the public school, as at least the people there living sinful lifestyles didn't call themselves Christians at the same time.

ChicanaRose · Aug 17, 2019

SkyWriting said:
So concealed murderers are easier to get along with? Hmmm.

I worked with a non-christian multiple murderer once
who had served 7 years. He was a very congenial guy.

The OP is about Christians blatantly living in sin. I am only speaking in that context. Thanks.

bèlla · Aug 17, 2019

Anthony2019 said:
I don't think it serves any purpose for Christians to create additional hardship for others by withdrawing the hand of friendship. It doesn't seem to me like a good way of living by the Golden Rule.

I think it’s important for us to lean on the Holy Spirit in these issues. Paul reminded us that all things are lawful but all things are not expedient. We are susceptible to certain influences more than others. There are instances when parting ways is wiser for both.

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

Tone said:
It would be a great testament to the watching world if they witnessed this done among "Christians". It is something that would have to be done very prayerfully, with true discernment:

It would certainly change perceptions. The problem is that it would make us all look like cults that practice shunning. Maybe that would be what Paul would want, but it’s hard to believe it would be what Jesus wants.

Tone · Aug 17, 2019

hedrick said:
It would certainly change perceptions. The problem is that it would make us all look like cults that practice shunning. Maybe that would be what Paul would want, but it’s hard to believe it would be what Jesus wants.

When I was a young Christian and a member of a certain reformed church, I told on myself to the elders about my struggle with alcohol and lust. After three times, where I disclosed my sins, the congregation voted to excommunicate me. I haven't become an official member of another congregation since (about 20 years). The congregation I am a part of now doesn't do the whole official membership thing, which is one reason why I like it. Turns out, that congregation that excommunicated me had a nasty split several years after I left. All this to reiterate my point that we should use real discernment when deciding on who to disassociate with. Mostly, I think the deciding factor should be based on how much influence the individual has on those around them.

*Anyways, all things work for the good...I am no longer reformed baptist...so...

hedrick · Aug 17, 2019

Tone said:
When I was a young Christian and a member of a certain reformed church, I told on myself to the elders about my struggle with alcohol and lust. After three times, where I disclosed my sins, the congregation voted to excommunicate me. I haven't become an official member of another congregation since (about 20 years). The congregation I am a part of now doesn't do the whole official membership thing, which is one reason why I like it. Turns out, that congregation that excommunicated me had a nasty split several years after I left. All this to reiterate my point that we should use real discernment when deciding on who to disassociate with. Mostly, I think the deciding factor should be based on how much influence the individual has on those around them...

Your story is useful, but it's not as challenging as some others. You thought you had a problem, which is why you talked to the elders. Even a church that takes Paul's words literally should be happy to help you, although they might not make you an elder.

The OP seems to be talking about the widespread acceptance of unmarried couples, divorced people, etc. In most cases these aren't people who are trying to overcome a very addictive behavior such as alcohol. Most typically they don't show much sign of considering it a problem. Paul was very concerned about sexual behavior. While his lists included other things, it seems to have been sex that he concentrated on. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have wanted an unmarried couple to be considered Christian. (Jesus, in contrast, didn't concentrate on sex. He talked about judgement a number of times. As I recall, sexual sin was never an issue.)

So why don't churches take that position? Some do. I'm reasonably sure that the conservative Presbyterian churches such as the PCA would enforce Paul's rule, although I think that like Paul, they'd really only look at sexual behavior, not the other things on the list.

Of those who don't, it would be interesting to hear an explanation. My tradition would probably be willing to say openly that we think Paul's approach contradicts Jesus'. But most churches wouldn't do that. It may still be what they're thinking, even though they're not quite willing to say that Paul was wrong. Or Paul wis wrong for our situation.

In Paul's situation the churches were small groups, that needed to enforce standards very different from what converts were used to. I think they might well have looked to outsiders (and even members) like JW's today -- although the doctrines weren't the same. Today, more than half our population considers themselves Christian. We're no longer a small sect that can do things the way a sect does.

There are plenty of Christians who think this is a mistake. We should never accommodate ourselves to the population, and should be the kind of sect (today it would be called a "cult") that Paul's church was. I wouldn't want to belong to that kind of church (though in fact there's nothing in my life that would cause me to have a problem), but I think from Paul's point of view it might be the right thing to do.

SkyWriting · Aug 18, 2019

ChicanaRose said:
The OP is about Christians blatantly living in sin. I am only speaking in that context. Thanks.

tuliplane said:
Something that I have been thinking about a lot lately is 1 Corinthians 5:11. This is specifically about the person who claims they are Christian, but is living in sin...even boasting about it. It is clear that we are not to associate with a person like this, not even to share a meal.

People are not to judge that way. Sorrrrry :sorry:

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”

John 8
15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.

Isaiah 11
3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide disputes by what his ears hear, but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth;

John 8
7 And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

James 2
4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Proverbs 24
23 These also are sayings of the wise. Partiality in judging is not good.

1 Samuel 16
7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”

The Barbarian · Aug 18, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Jesus ate with sinners daily.

Apparently, some Christians are holier than He was...?

SkyWriting · Aug 18, 2019

The Barbarian said:
Apparently, some Christians are holier than He was...?

The odds are slim.

Do not even eat with such a one...

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