Explaining he baptism with the Holy Spirit

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These 2 passages are specifically about baptized with the Holy Spirit.

“And being assembled together with them, He (Jesus) commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” … “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:4-8)

“And as I (Peter) began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us …” (Acts 11:15-17)

These 2 passages show that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is “the Promise” and “the gift”
… where the Holy Spirit falls “upon” people resulting in spiritual “power”.

Now, in the chart below, we see the Holy Spirit comes “upon” as a result of laying on of hands (5).
People are filled with the Spirit (4), receive spiritual power (5), speak in tongues (3),
do miracles (6), and prophesy (2). The number of associated passages are in brackets.

Not all of these things always happens!
None of these things is mentioned in every instance of this baptism.
Some always happen, and some do not.
All of the details of an historical event are NOT usually reported.
In the NT, it would be too boring to repeat the same things over and over again.

“The baptism with (or in) the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in these verses:
Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 11:15-17.

Please notice how these details are inter-connected (linked together) in the chart.
All of the details of an historical event are NOT usually reported.

1 Luke 24:49 ~~~~~~ 9 Acts 8:14-19
2 Acts 1:4-8 ~~~~~ 10 Acts 9:17-18
3 Acts 2:1-4 ~~~~~ 11 Acts 10:44-48
4 Acts 2:17-20 ~~~ 12 Acts 11:15-17
5 Acts 2:33-39 ~~~ 13 Acts 14:3
6 Acts 4:8-16 ~~~~ 14 Acts 19:5-6
7 Acts 4:31 ~~~~~~ 15 Romans 15:19
8 Acts 5:12
------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
the Promise --------Y-Y-----Y--------------------------
baptism with H.S. ----Y----------------------Y---------
the gift -------------------Y-------------Y--Y---------
upon ---------------Y-Y-Y-Y---------Y-----Y--Y-----Y---
laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y--Y--------Y--Y---
filled with H.S. -------Y-----Y-Y------Y---------------
speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y---
power --------------Y-Y-------------Y-----Y-----------Y
boldness ---------------------Y-Y---------------Y------
miracles -----------------Y---Y---Y----Y--------Y-----Y
prophesying --------------Y------------------------Y---
 
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These 2 passages are specifically about “baptized with the Holy Spirit”.

“And being assembled together with them, He (Jesus) commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me; for John

truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

… “But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses

to Me … to the end of the earth.” (Acts 1:4-8)



“And as I (Peter) began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.

Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said,

‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

If therefore God gave them the same gift as He gave us …” (Acts 11:15-17)



These 2 passages show that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is “the Promise” and “the gift”

… where the Holy Spirit falls “upon” people resulting in spiritual “power”.


Now, in the chart below, we see the Holy Spirit comes “upon” as a result of laying on of hands (5).

People are filled with the Spirit (4), receive spiritual power (5), speak in tongues (3),

do miracles (6), and prophesy (2). The number of associated passages are in brackets.



Not all of these things always happens!

None of these things is mentioned in every instance of this baptism.

Some always happen, and some do not.

All of the details of an historical event are NOT usually reported.

In the NT, it would be too boring to repeat the same things over and over again.


“The baptism with (or in) the Holy Spirit” is mentioned in these verses:

Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, Acts 1:4-8, Acts 11:15-17.




----------------------------------------------------------------------------


Please notice how these details are inter-connected (linked together) in the chart.
All of the details of an historical event are NOT usually reported.



1 Luke 24:49 ~~~~~~ 9 Acts 8:14-19

2 Acts 1:4-8 ~~~~~ 10 Acts 9:17-18

3 Acts 2:1-4 ~~~~~ 11 Acts 10:44-48

4 Acts 2:17-20 ~~~ 12 Acts 11:15-17

5 Acts 2:33-39 ~~~ 13 Acts 14:3

6 Acts 4:8-16 ~~~~ 14 Acts 19:5-6

7 Acts 4:31 ~~~~~~ 15 Romans 15:19

8 Acts 5:12



------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

the Promise --------Y-Y-----Y--------------------------

baptism with H.S. ----Y----------------------Y---------

the gift -------------------Y-------------Y--Y---------

upon ---------------Y-Y-Y-Y---------Y-----Y--Y-----Y---

laying on of hands ---------------Y-Y--Y--------Y--Y---

filled with H.S. -------Y-----Y-Y------Y---------------

speaking tongues -------Y-----------------Y--------Y---

power --------------Y-Y-------------Y-----Y-----------Y

boldness ---------------------Y-Y---------------Y------

miracles -----------------Y---Y---Y----Y--------Y-----Y

prophesying --------------Y------------------------Y---
The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs at the point of conversion to Christ. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. It can be a more intense experience with some than for others, and the associated gifts may manifest sooner in some than others. But the potential and power of the Holy Spirit is there within the believer right from the point of conversion, and as the believe grows in grace and in the knowledge of what he or she has received, then the outworking of whatever gift the Holy Spirit chooses to manifest through the person happens.
 
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BCsenior

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The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs at the point of conversion to Christ. The Holy Spirit comes to indwell the believer. It can be a more intense experience with some than for others, and the associated gifts may manifest sooner in some than others. But the potential and power of the Holy Spirit is there within the believer right from the point of conversion, and as the believe grows in grace and in the knowledge of what he or she has received, then the outworking of whatever gift the Holy Spirit chooses to manifest through the person happens.
Did you read the OP?
BTW and FYI, you are not a Pentecostal.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I humbly have quite a different take than Oscarr on this one.

I believe we receive the Holy Spirit permanently within and rebirth and permanently upon at the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

A strong teaching came with the Pentecostal movement in the 60's that led to folks being taught that if you wern't a tongue speaker you wern't saved. This was a result of combining the two events into one.
I believe this to be un-biblical and the cause of a lot of damage and false spirituality.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If we let Scripture speak for itself on this matter, it should be quite revealing.

So if we are going to let Scripture speak for itself, then our first recourse should be to see where Scripture itself specifically and explicitly mentions "baptism with the Holy Spirit", and what it refers to when it uses this language.

And so looking at these things clearly from a biblical perspective we can rule these things out:

1) Baptism with the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with conversion, at no point is conversion referred to as "baptism with the Holy Spirit".

2) Baptism with the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with a subsequent "infilling" of the Spirit at some point after conversion. At no point do we see this said, mentioned, or spoken about.

3) Baptism with the Holy Spirit is never mentioned in connection with any experience of an individual, but is only mentioned in connection with momentous, corporate events.

If there is disagreement with the above, then rebuttal should be simple enough: show mention of "baptism with the Holy Spirit" in Scripture pointing to any of these things. Without assumption, but rather clearly and unambiguously.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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If there is disagreement with the above, then rebuttal should be simple enough: show mention of "baptism with the Holy Spirit" in Scripture pointing to any of these things. Without assumption, but rather clearly and unambiguously.

Matthew 3:11 says Jesus does it. We can come to Him for this baptism.

Acts of the Apostles 1:2-4

) Baptism with the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with a subsequent "infilling" of the Spirit at some point after conversion. At no point do we see this said, mentioned, or spoken about.

1 John 2:20 anointing from the Holy One is baptism by Spirit; indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
 
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Carl Emerson

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The problem with this approach is that we slip into a theology of non-mention.

This assumes that scripture is exhaustive in every detail.

This is clearly not the case.

Jesus said that there was lots of stuff that he didnt teach and it was never recorded.
This does not make it untrue - It will however align with what was revealed.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Matthew 3:11 says Jesus does it. We can come to Him for this baptism.

Acts of the Apostles 1:2-4

When/where/how has/does Jesus do/done this? That's the question.

1 John 2:20 anointing from the Holy One is baptism by Spirit; indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

You make this claim on the basis of what exactly? What in 1 John 2:20 leads you to believe it is talking about the baptism with the Holy Spirit?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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The problem with this approach is that we slip into a theology of non-mention.

This assumes that scripture is exhaustive in every detail.

This is clearly not the case.

Jesus said that there was lots of stuff that he didnt teach and it was never recorded.
This does not make it untrue - It will however align with what was revealed.

I agree that Scripture isn't exhaustive. But what I want to avoid is the trap that I see of assuming this or that is "baptism with the Holy Spirit" when there's literally nothing in Scripture to suggest this. Avoiding assumption without basis.

And as far as it comes what isn't recorded in Scripture, wouldn't it make sense that following Scripture we ought to then look to see what the ancient Church believed. That means going and looking to see what the fathers wrote and said. And we can follow that down through history.

If we follow this sort of method, does it lead us to any kind of defensible position that baptism with the Holy Spirit is some kind of subsequent grace, or an individual experience, or even still that it is simply a metaphor for conversion? Are our positions defensible on the basis of the clear word of Scripture, and if Scripture being not entirely clear, is our position at least defensible on the basis of the enduring, historic teaching of the Church; being arguable from the received and historic teaching of Christians down through the ages. Or is our position ultimately something that is innovation, having as its basis a purely modern source, and thus being merely the doctrine of men.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Did you read the OP?
BTW and FYI, you are not a Pentecostal.
Just because I accept the immediate infilling of the Holy Spirit at conversion, it doesn't mean that I have stopped being Pentecostal in my theology. I understand that the baptism with the Spirit being a second experience after conversion is AOG theology, but then, I am not an AOG Pentecostal. I actually accept both. If a believer says that he has been baptised with the Spirit at conversion, then I encourage him to release the Spirit to flow out of him with the gifts. If a person does not believe he is baptised with the Spirit yet, I take him through steps of faith to receive it by faith, and then to release the Spirit out of him. Once a person is manifesting the gifts of the Spirit according to what the Spirit is manifesting through him according to His will, then, who cares how he began in the Spirit? Jesus did say, "According to your faith be it unto you."
 
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To be baptized or immersed in the HOLY Spirit, is to be made holy and if you are not holy, as He is holy, then you have not been baptized in the HOLY Spirit.
We are holy as God is holy, because along with the Holy Spirit, we have received God's righteousness, which totally covers our own unrighteousness. So, as our sanctification develops from day to day, we are conformed into what we already are in the sight of God.
 
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To be baptized or immersed in the HOLY Spirit, is to be made holy and if you are not holy, as He is holy, then you have not been baptized in the HOLY Spirit.
Where, may I ask, does it say this in the NT?

ALL BACs are exhorted to be holy as God is holy!
But, NOT all BACs have been baptized with the Holy Spirit
(with the confirmation of tongues and having one or more of
the 9 spiritual "power" gifts described in 1 Corinthians 12).

Although, IMO, all of the church leaders in the NT,
i.e. the 5-fold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11,
were baptized with the Holy Spirit.
And a large percentage of the church was also!
But, the N. A. church today is a FAR cry from the NT churches.

Today's N. A. church is the lukewarm Laodicean church
who Jesus will spit out of His mouth because it is NOT saved.
(So says prophetess Lois Vogel-Sharp.)
Of course, within it are the few who are sincerely repenting
while co-operating as they are being sanctified unto holiness!

CHOOSE this day whom you will serve ...
the Lord ...or... Satan, the flesh, the world, etc.
 
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To be baptized or immersed in the HOLY Spirit,
is to be made holy and if you are not holy, as He is holy,
then you have not been baptized in the HOLY Spirit.

It is pure sanctified logic. The whole of the OT is about becoming holy .
Yeahbut, there's absolutely nothing in the OT about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

So, the question is:
Can a BAC without being "baptized with the Holy Spirit" be as the blue?
I.E. Is the indwelling Holy Spirit enough to sanctify the BAC unto holiness?

And, I'm not sure of the answer ... But, I say YES!

The "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is mostly about ...
being anointed for ministry and using some of the power gifts of 1 Cor 12.
I cannot remember anything specific in the NT
about having more ability to be sanctified unto holiness.
 
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bmjackson

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Yeahbut, there's absolutely nothing in the OT about the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

It is right throughout it including the time when the burning coal was touched to Isaiah's lips. But those who are blind will not see.
 
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