The Sixth Seal

keras · Aug 17, 2019

Having established the fact that we are all prone to making mistakes and misinterpreting scriptures and as we all desire that the truth be made clear, I now ask that we look closely the critical issue of the Sixth Seal.

Points to be considered:

1/ Are the seals, trumpets and bowls a progression of events?

2/ Have the first five seals been opened already?

3/ Is the Sixth Seal actually the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?

4/ Is there a literal explanation of the Sixth Seal?

1/ All the commentaries that I have perused and most of the Bible scholars I have asked, agree on the chronological sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls. It is only those with the agenda of the next event being a war and all the wrath of God is to be poured out at the Return, who place them out of the sequence as given.
Also a preterist will say it’s all past history or abrogated by Christ’s atonement.

2/ Although some say that because the description of the four horsemen and how they have been released already, as in Zechariah 1:8-11 and Zechariah 6:1-8, do not exactly match that described in Revelation 6:1-8, then they are different events. However, I see this as just an attempt to maintain their beliefs, especially those who hold to a pre trib/wrath rapture.

The Fifth Seal is telling those saints that have been martyred, they must wait until their number is complete. Matthew 23:35 Jesus said:...from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah... This significant quote confirms that the first five seals were opened after the murder of Zechariah and their number will be completed by all who have been and will be killed from the time of Zechariah until the Return.

3/ The Sixth Seal matches quite closely the many prophecies of the worldwide Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, found throughout the OT and the NT. This event simply does not match the 3 clear descriptions of the Return of Jesus and what happens then. Zechariah 14:4-9, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21

As for thinking that because it is the people who say; ‘Fall on us, for the Day of wrath has come’, then it isn’t a true statement, this is totally unbelievable because they haven’t said it yet and it is actually a prophecy of Jesus, as given to John.

4/ Prophecy should be understood literally, unless there is an obvious allegory and then it is most often explained literally in other passages. With hindsight and modern scientific knowledge, it is now possible to know what will happen and right now the fulfilment of Psalms 83:1-8 and Micah 4:11-12 is staring us in the face.

The sequence of judgements/ punishments as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, will occur as written and the next event will be the Sixth seal, the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the Day the Lord destroys His enemies. All the graphically described effects of a worldwide devastation will happen by the means He will use, a coronal mass ejection, Isaiah 30:26, which will literally fulfil all the prophecies.

Be aware and be prepared, or remain ‘in the dark’, and be shocked and terrified when it does happen.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2019

The sixth seal event is end times, near the end of the seven years. It is the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:29-30. 1290 days from the day the AoD is placed in the temple, on the timeline.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

In Revelation 16:13-16, the armies assemble at Armageddon, the mountains surrounding the plain of Megiddo, 82 miles north of Jerusalem, in preparation to make war on Jesus.

How do they know that Jesus is coming to pass judgement on them, the wicked of the world, unless the sixth seal happens first?

The sixth seal will take place. Then over the course of the next 45 days, the kings of the earth are convinced by the beast, the false prophet, Satan, to gather their armies to make war on Jesus.

The kings of the earth assemble their armies at Armageddon, then move down the 82 miles toward Jerusalem, taking the Jews there captive as hostages, Zechariah 14:2. They surround the temple mount, filling in the Kidron valley, the valley of Jehoshaphat where God judges; as the beast, the false prophet, and Satan on the temple mount take their desperation stand against Jesus.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2019

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days" the 7 years will be coming to a close. The tribulation of those days is within the great tribulation timeframe. The trumpet judgements to the earth will be over. And most of the bowls of God's wrath. When, the sixth seal takes place.

The sixth and seventh bowl of God's wrath left, in Revelation 16.

The gathering of the armies at Armageddon, and then the final great earthquake and huge hail of the 7th bowl of God's wrath, in Revelation 16:17-21.

Then Jesus descends to earth, the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.

keras · Aug 17, 2019

Douggg said:
The sixth seal event is end times, near the end of the seven years. It is the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:29-30. 1290 days from the day the AoD is placed in the temple, on the timeline.

I disagree with this idea. It means you have shuffled the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls sequence of Revelation.
We have 3 specific prophesies describing the Return of Jesus in glory; NOT the Judgement of the world, only the instantaneous destruction of Satan's armies and chaining him up. Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21
Note that Matthew 24:30 is definitively AFTER the wrath of the Lord has passed. v29

So your ideas above are wrong and I would be grateful if you would cease promoting them.

A Realist · Aug 17, 2019

keras said:
I disagree with this idea.
<snip>
So your ideas above are wrong and I would be grateful if you would cease promoting them.

This entire forum is about people promoting ideas and versions of what they "think" is going to happen or has happened.

I really don't think you're in any position to demand that folks stop posting their thoughts unless they agree with yours.

Original Happy Camper · Aug 17, 2019

A Realist said:
This pon precept.entire forum is about people promoting ideas and versions of what they "think" is going to happen or has happened

I really don't think you're in any position to demand that folks stop posting their thoughts unless they agree with yours.

I have been on this forum for several years and have only had one instant where the discussion change the view of an individual that was published.

And that folks is a sad testimony that we are so entrenched in our beliefs to not search for the truth when it is presented.

a line here a line there, precept upon precept

Psalm 77:13
Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Douggg · Aug 17, 2019

keras said:
I disagree with this idea. It means you have shuffled the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls sequence of Revelation.

Revelation is not a straight through reading of the text chronology. Segments are. But not the entire book.

The trumpets coincide with the bowls to take place during the great tribulation.

The seals are an overview of the 7 years.

Note that Matthew 24:30 is definitively AFTER the wrath of the Lord has passed. v29

The KJV doesn't say that. You must be using another translation.

I addressed Matthew 24:29 in my post #3. The great tribulation ends the day Jesus returns. The tribulation in Matthew 24:29 is within the great tribulation.

AoD setup...................1290 days......................Sign of the Son of man in heaven, the sixth seal, the tribulation of those days over at that point, the trumpet judgments and most of the bowls of God's wrath, over.

AoD setup.....................1335 days......................end of the great tribulation on the day the Son of Man comes in the clouds of heaven with great power and glory.

45 days between the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven (the sixth seal event), and the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of heaven in great power and glory. During the 45 days the kings of the earth gather their armies at Armageddon to prepare to make war on Jesus.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2019

keras said:
We have 3 specific prophesies describing the Return of Jesus in glory; NOT the Judgement of the world, only the instantaneous destruction of Satan's armies and chaining him up. Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21

When Jesus returns, he executes judgement on them who gather to make war on him, and vengeance on them who will have martyred the saints during the great tribulation.

In Ezekiel 39:17-20, is the feast on the destroyed armies that have gathered to make war on Jesus in Revelation 19:17-21.

Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21, having returned to earth, states in blue ...

Ezekiel 39:21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
______________________________________________

And in Psalms 110, referring to the same event...

4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.

vinsight4u · Aug 17, 2019

vinsight4u · Aug 17, 2019

mkgal1 · Aug 17, 2019

keras said:
4/ Is there a literal explanation of the Sixth Seal?

No. This is symbolic prophetic hyperbole just as in the Old Testament conveying national catastrophes.

The defeat of Babylon: Isaiah 13:10-13

The defeat of Edom: Isaiah 24:1-6; 34:4

The defeat of Egypt: Ezekiel 32:6-8

The defeat of the Chaldeans and other enemies of Israel: Habakkuk 3:6-11

Compare Isaiah 34:4 and God’s judgment against historical Edom with Rev. 6:13-14a.

‘and the powers of the heaven will melt, and the heaven will be rolled up like a scroll; and all the stars will fall . . . as leaves fall from a fig tree’ (Isa. 34:4).

‘and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind, and the heaven was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up’ (Rev. 6:13-14a).

Quoting N.T. Wright: "It is crass literalism, in view of the many prophetic passages in which this language denotes socio-political and military catastrophe, to insist that this time the words must refer to the physical collapse of the space-time world. This is simply the way regular Jewish imagery is able to refer to major socio-political events and bring out their full significance” (Victory, 361)… In summary, Revelation 6:12-14 is stock-in-trade OT prophetic language for national disaster.”

Quoting J. Stuart Russell: "The “gorgeous symbolical imagery” used in this passage is fitting for the destruction of Jerusalem because “[t]hat event is not simply a tragical historical incident; it is not to be looked at as in the same category with the siege of Troy or of Carthage. It was a grand providential epoch; the close of an aeon; the winding up of a great period in the divine government of the world”

Quoting Steve Gregg, clarifying Russell's above quote: “The vision depicts the end of the Jewish state and the fall of its leaders” (“Revelation: Four Views - A Parallel Commentary, p. 122).

Another quote from Steve Gregg's book: J. Stewart Russell says of this day, “This is… ‘the great and terrible day of the Lord‘ predicted by Malachi, by John the Baptist, by St. Paul, by St. Peter, and, above all, by our Lord in His apocalyptic discourse on the Mount of Olives. … It is impossible to overlook the connection between the seventeenth verse and the language of Malachi 3:2, ‘But who may abide the day of his coming?’ ” Revelation 6 ends with the question, “and who can stand?” (Gregg, pp. 120, 122)

tranquil · Aug 17, 2019

keras said:
Having established the fact that we are all prone to making mistakes and misinterpreting scriptures and as we all desire that the truth be made clear, I now ask that we look closely the critical issue of the Sixth Seal.

Points to be considered:

1/ Are the seals, trumpets and bowls a progression of events?

2/ Have the first five seals been opened already?

3/ Is the Sixth Seal actually the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath?

4/ Is there a literal explanation of the Sixth Seal?

1/ All the commentaries that I have perused and most of the Bible scholars I have asked, agree on the chronological sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls. It is only those with the agenda of the next event being a war and all the wrath of God is to be poured out at the Return, who place them out of the sequence as given.
Also a preterist will say it’s all past history or abrogated by Christ’s atonement.

2/ Although some say that because the description of the four horsemen and how they have been released already, as in Zechariah 1:8-11 and Zechariah 6:1-8, do not exactly match that described in Revelation 6:1-8, then they are different events. However, I see this as just an attempt to maintain their beliefs, especially those who hold to a pre trib/wrath rapture.

The Fifth Seal is telling those saints that have been martyred, they must wait until their number is complete. Matthew 23:35 Jesus said:...from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah... This significant quote confirms that the first five seals were opened after the murder of Zechariah and their number will be completed by all who have been and will be killed from the time of Zechariah until the Return.

3/ The Sixth Seal matches quite closely the many prophecies of the worldwide Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, found throughout the OT and the NT. This event simply does not match the 3 clear descriptions of the Return of Jesus and what happens then. Zechariah 14:4-9, Matthew 24:30-31, Revelation 19:11-21

As for thinking that because it is the people who say; ‘Fall on us, for the Day of wrath has come’, then it isn’t a true statement, this is totally unbelievable because they haven’t said it yet and it is actually a prophecy of Jesus, as given to John.

4/ Prophecy should be understood literally, unless there is an obvious allegory and then it is most often explained literally in other passages. With hindsight and modern scientific knowledge, it is now possible to know what will happen and right now the fulfilment of Psalms 83:1-8 and Micah 4:11-12 is staring us in the face.

The sequence of judgements/ punishments as revealed by Jesus to John in Revelation, will occur as written and the next event will be the Sixth seal, the Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the Day the Lord destroys His enemies. All the graphically described effects of a worldwide devastation will happen by the means He will use, a coronal mass ejection, Isaiah 30:26, which will literally fulfil all the prophecies.

Be aware and be prepared, or remain ‘in the dark’, and be shocked and terrified when it does happen.

I mainly agree with this. But it has to be within the context of the abomination. That is what is triggering God's wrath. The day of God's wrath is not like human wrath that is subject to fickle eruption after you just can't take it anymore.

God's wrath occurs because of the apostasy. A high profile defection from faith in God - that has to happen in the 'holy place'.

To sum up, 1st there has to be a holy place. Then the abomination in the holy place. That is what triggers God's wrath at the 6th Seal.

(the locusts of the 5th Trumpet are the same locusts of Joel 1 that are cutting off the sacrifices in the holy place)

Then the beast kingdom arrives, which imitates the kingdom of heaven that arrives 'after the day of God's wrath'.

Then the beast from the sea & earth arrives, imitating the 'now we've got it right!' kingdom of heaven.

Douggg · Aug 17, 2019

tranquil said:
(the locusts of the 5th Trumpet are the same locusts of Joel 1 that are cutting off the sacrifices in the holy place)

The locust in the Revelation 9 only attack people, who do not have seal of God.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

vinsight4u · Aug 17, 2019

vinsight4u · Aug 17, 2019

keras · Aug 17, 2019

A Realist said:
This entire forum is about people promoting ideas and versions of what they "think" is going to happen or has happened.

I really don't think you're in any position to demand that folks stop posting their thoughts unless they agree with yours.

Quite right.
What I ask is that people read and believe what the Bible prophets actually do tell us.

For reasons of their own, some people want to make the Sixth Seal happen at the Return of Jesus. I have shown why this idea is wrong.
Douggg says:

Douggg said:
The KJV doesn't say that.

Matthew 24:20 Immediately AFTER the tribulations of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon will not give its light.....KJV

Jesus does not Return until after the Great Tribulation, of which the Sixth Seal happens first. The sun darkened and the moon no light will happen at the Return, Amos 8:9 says the sun will go down at noon..... but what happens at the Sixth Seal is the sun darkened and the moon blood red. Very different ; not the same event at all!

But will anyone who has the belief that the Sixth Seal does happen at the Return, change their beliefs? I does seem to be impossible, sadly and Isaiah 28:9-12 tells us why.
Those who have chosen to believe false theories, doctrines and fables, will be locked into them but it isn't impossible to change, many have renounced the false doctrines they were taught by the 'wolves in sheeps clothing'.
It takes courage and moral fortitude to do it, but just imagine how the Lord rejoices at one of His children who puts aside all the fanciful notions that abound today and simply believes the truth of the Prophetic Word, trusting in the Lord for their protection thru all that must come.

keras · Aug 17, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Compare Isaiah 34:4 and God’s judgment against historical Edom with Rev. 6:13-14a.

‘and the powers of the heaven will melt, and the heaven will be rolled up like a scroll; and all the stars will fall . . . as leaves fall from a fig tree’ (Isa. 34:4).
‘and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind, and the heaven was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up’ (Rev. 6:13-14a).

Isaiah 34 and Rev 6 are prophesies about the same event, that is yet to happen. What is described did not happen to Edom in ancient times.

When it is understood what the Lord will use on His great and terrible Day of fiery wrath, it can be seen that these things; our atmosphere pushed aside, satellites crashing down, violent storms, giant tsunamis and fire enveloping the earth, can and will literally happen.

keras · Aug 17, 2019

Douggg said:
The locust in the Revelation 9 only attack people, who do not have seal of God.

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

Correct, but this thread is about the Sixth Seal.
Which is the next prophesied event that we can expect. Proved by Isaiah 61:2b, where Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1-2a and stopped before; and a Day of the Lord's vengeance.

Original Happy Camper · Aug 17, 2019

Douggg said:
The sixth seal event is end times, near the end of the seven years.

Revelation 6 Commentary

6:12-13 The 6th Seal: The End-Time Church, Mid 1700s-The Second Coming of Christ. This seal corresponds to the time of both the church of Philadelphia and the church of Laodicea. Under the sixth seal the language shifts from symbolic horses and souls to literal signs and disasters. The prophecy says “there was a great earthquake,” “the sun became black as sackcloth,” “the moon became as blood,” and “the stars of heaven fell.” These signs have all received a striking and impassive fulfillment.

On November 1, 1755, Lisbon, Portugal was the center of a tremendous earthquake. Its effects were felt over an area of 4 million square miles. On May 19, 1780 beginning around 9:00 AM. heavy black clouds blotted out the sun drawing the dark of night over New England. That night, when the darkness finally lessened and the moon appeared, it had the appearance of blood. November 13, 1833, brought the most extensive display of falling stars which has ever been recorded. These are the same signs that Jesus gave to let us know when His coming would be near. Matthew 24:29-30.

14And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

6:14-17 The rest of the sixth seal is yet future and describes events that occur when Jesus returns. The heavens will be rolled back “as a scroll,” and the earth will be in a state of violent upheaval. Those who are ready to meet Jesus will joyfully exclaim “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him and He will save us.” Isaiah 25:9. But what a sad day for those who have rejected Jesus as King they will beg for the mountains to fall on them and hide them from his face.

In these precious hours while time yet remains, we can still make peace with God through Jesus Christ who loves us. To those who repent, He extends forgiveness and cleansing (1 John 1:9); for those who persist in evil, He dispenses punishment in the lake of fire and the second death. Revelation 20:14-15. Which destination will you choose? Make Jesus your personal Friend and Saviour and you will have nothing to fear.

keras · Aug 17, 2019

Original Happy Camper said:
6:12-13 The 6th Seal: The End-Time Church, Mid 1700s-The Second Coming of Christ.

Believing the Commentators views on Bible Prophecy is a mistake as they could never have known the truth. Daniel 12:4 plainly says the Book is to be kept closed until the time of the end. What every so called Bible expert on prophecy has taught until now, is purely speculation and guesswork. Proved by the proliferation of different doctrines and beliefs, with little consensus between them.
Also note Jesus Words in Matthew 11:25.

The Sixth Seal

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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