Marty Samson From Hillsong Renounce Faith

Guojing

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Well, scripture says this:

Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace. The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God. -- Romans 8

So you are saying, in essence, that what the first Adam did was more powerful than the final Adam. Sinners cannot voluntarily leave Satan by renouncing him, but Christians can somehow lose their salvation by renouncing Jesus?

You will have a problem interpreting Romans 5:12-19 then.
 
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RDKirk

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So you are saying, in essence, that what the first Adam did was more powerful than the final Adam. Sinners cannot voluntarily leave Satan by renouncing him, but Christians can somehow lose their salvation by renouncing Jesus?

You will have a problem interpreting Romans 5:12-19 then.

Actually, I didn't say anything, I just provided the scripture. What it means seems obvious to you.

However, are you interpreting Romans 5:12-19 as saying that Jesus universally saves all men by His actions?
 
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Guojing

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Actually, I didn't say anything, I just provided the scripture. What it means seems obvious to you.

However, are you interpreting Romans 5:12-19 as saying that Jesus universally saves all men by His actions?

No, you have to receive it by making a choice to do so (Romans 5:17). But once you are received it, just like we once received the sinful nature from Adam, you cannot merely renounce it and be rid of it.

Those who quote scripture are always trying to say something with it. Its just that they don't want to state their point clearly so that they can always rely on the "I didn't say anything, I just provided the scripture". =)
 
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RDKirk

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No, you have to receive it by making a choice to do so (Romans 5:17). But once you are received it, just like we once received the sinful nature from Adam, you cannot merely renounce it and be rid of it.

Those who quote scripture are always trying to say something with it. Its just that they don't want to state their point clearly so that they can always rely on the "I didn't say anything, I just provided the scripture". =)

What I don't want to start at this late hour of the night is down the trail of debating Calvinism.

I would point out that the letters of the apostles to the saints of the Body of Christ are rife with warnings against sin with constant mention of a loss of salvation. These are not letters to pagans, these are letters to Christians.
 
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Guojing

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What I don't want to start at this late hour of the night is down the trail of debating Calvinism.

I would point out that the letters of the apostles to the saints of the Body of Christ are rife with warnings against sin with constant mention of a loss of salvation. These are not letters to pagans, these are letters to Christians.

And I am saying you are interpreting them wrongly.

For if Adam's free gift to all his descendants was so powerful that no one can lose that sinful nature merely by doing good deeds, or avoiding bad deeds, you have to believe that the final Adam's free gift to all of us must be at least "just as powerful", if not "much more" as what Romans 5:12-19 is trying to explain.

By the way, I am not a Calvinist since I already stated you need to receive the gift by faith.
 
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RDKirk

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And I am saying you are interpreting them wrongly.

For if Adam's free gift to all his descendants was so powerful that no one can lose that sinful nature merely by doing good deeds, or avoiding bad deeds, you have to believe that the final Adam's free gift to all of us must be at least "just as powerful", if not "much more" as what Romans 5:12-19 is trying to explain.

That sounds like you're talking about universalism--that "the final Adam's free gift to all of us" is so much more powerful than the sin of the first Adam that it is efficacious to salvation even if they do evil deeds.
 
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Guojing

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That sounds like you're talking about universalism--that "the final Adam's free gift to all of us" is so much more powerful than the sin of the first Adam that it is efficacious to salvation even if they do evil deeds.

Your point won't make sense unless you also believe that one can be free of Adam's sinful nature by doing good deeds.
 
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JCFantasy23

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Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

As an aside, I was having a conversation for a foreman of our construction renovation at work last week, or is a Christian who loves talking about the faith. He mentioned a Michael Brown he listens to, but I'm not sure if it's the same one. He says he does debates and teachings on Youtube, so I'll keep searching.

I like how the article isn't accusatory or judging. I did find this telling/interesting though -

What is surprising is Marty seems to feel that “no one” is talking about challenges to the Christian faith. “No one” is discussing difficult intellectual issues. “No one” is engaging the apparent contradictions or interpretative problems in the Bible.

I can only ask (with sadness rather than condemnation), “Marty, what Christian world have you been living in?”

He asks, “How many preachers fall? Many. No one talks about it.” Really?​

He is right that is a surprise. I consider myself to be a 'loner Christian' who doesn't interact as much as I should with others of the faith in a formal setting (church), and I'm a busy person with my head in the clouds most of the time, but I have to agree with Dr. Brown that it's surprising this guy is stating this. I see plenty of these challenges discussed on the boards here and through Apologetics. I hear the about the preachers fall stories or any scandals that pop up through my Podcasts (mainly listen to Christian ones) or in a Christian Facebook group I follow, or even Twitter if I'm on there for something else. Same for the miracles he's talking about.

I do have to echo Brown's comment that what kind of christian world was he living in where he didn't hear, read, or know about this stuff either? Even I do and I'm not out there like he is interacting with full churches and bodies of christians.

This could be part of the problem. He may have been so involved with the playful, singing, talent, have fun side that he wasn't merged into the actual, real side enough.
 
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bekkilyn

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Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

As an aside, I was having a conversation for a foreman of our construction renovation at work last week, or is a Christian who loves talking about the faith. He mentioned a Michael Brown he listens to, but I'm not sure if it's the same one. He says he does debates and teachings on Youtube, so I'll keep searching.

I like how the article isn't accusatory or judging. I did find this telling/interesting though -

What is surprising is Marty seems to feel that “no one” is talking about challenges to the Christian faith. “No one” is discussing difficult intellectual issues. “No one” is engaging the apparent contradictions or interpretative problems in the Bible.

I can only ask (with sadness rather than condemnation), “Marty, what Christian world have you been living in?”

He asks, “How many preachers fall? Many. No one talks about it.” Really?​

He is right that is a surprise. I consider myself to be a 'loner Christian' who doesn't interact as much as I should with others of the faith in a formal setting (church), and I'm a busy person with my head in the clouds most of the time, but I have to agree with Dr. Brown that it's surprising this guy is stating this. I see plenty of these challenges discussed on the boards here and through Apologetics. I hear the about the preachers fall stories or any scandals that pop up through my Podcasts (mainly listen to Christian ones) or in a Christian Facebook group I follow, or even Twitter if I'm on there for something else. Same for the miracles he's talking about.

I do have to echo Brown's comment that what kind of christian world was he living in where he didn't hear, read, or know about this stuff either? Even I do and I'm not out there like he is interacting with full churches and bodies of christians.

This could be part of the problem. He may have been so involved with the playful, singing, talent, have fun side that he wasn't merged into the actual, real side enough.

I would be willing to bet he was so super busy with all the responsibilities and activities within his church and never really got outside of that particular Christian bubble. I know nothing about the guy so could be wrong, but maybe he grew up within a bubble as well. Then along comes some issue that pops the bubble and now he's full of questions about all of these difficult issues and apparent contradictions and problematic interpretations that are now suddenly in his life. It would be a huge paradigm shift!

For me, I have a tendency to think that most people interact with all sorts of different people of different religions and non-religions every day, but I have slowly come to realize that many people actually do not interact much (if at all) with people who are not like them. They aren't necessarily *willfully* avoiding these other people, but if they're in a small town or rural area or live in a place that is not very diverse, then they may have no idea at all really that they are existing in a bubble until that one day when it is abruptly damaged or popped and everything is changed. To me, it seemed like they must have worked very hard to live with their head under a rock for years or even decades, but there it is. It happens. A lot. Even with the internet. And not necessarily by intentional design.
 
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RDKirk

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Your point won't make sense unless you also believe that one can be free of Adam's sinful nature by doing good deeds.

No, deeds don't come into the point you were making. You said:

For if Adam's free gift to all his descendants was so powerful that no one can lose that sinful nature merely by doing good deeds, or avoiding bad deeds, you have to believe that the final Adam's free gift to all of us must be at least "just as powerful", if not "much more" as what Romans 5:12-19 is trying to explain.

So, in the first clause, the sin of the first Adam (your so-called "free gift") has tainted all persons since. What ultimately was that sin? Adam determined that he could distinguish good from evil himself and follow his own judgment. It's not a matter of any inherent good or evil in individual acts, it's a matter of whether one is obeying God in doing those acts (which is righteous) or deciding for himself what acts are good and should be done (which is unrighteous).

There is no "good deed" in God's sight except that which is done in obedience to Him.

So there is no good deed that a man can do by his own choice which is not under the curse of the Fall, because he's doing it by his own choice instead of in obedience to God. The insistence on obeying himself is the essence of sin.
 
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Guojing

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No, deeds don't come into the point you were making. You said:



So, in the first clause, the sin of the first Adam (your so-called "free gift") has tainted all persons since. What ultimately was that sin? Adam determined that he could distinguish good from evil himself and follow his own judgment. It's not a matter of any inherent good or evil in individual acts, it's a matter of whether one is obeying God in doing those acts (which is righteous) or deciding for himself what acts are good and should be done (which is unrighteous).

There is no "good deed" in God's sight except that which is done in obedience to Him.

So there is no good deed that a man can do by his own choice which is not under the curse of the Fall, because he's doing it by his own choice instead of in obedience to God. The insistence on obeying himself is the essence of sin.

That sin was disobeying God and eating the fruit. He died spiritually from that sin.

Because we are all descended from him, we were all born with a sinful nature. We now sin because we are sinners. No matter what good deeds we do, God still sees us as sin.

That is why Jesus had to die on the cross, so that we can inherit a new nature that is untainted by sin.
 
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