Sinlessness

HatGuy · Aug 16, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
I think there is a lack of clarity in my words here. I mean to say that we should put away sin today. On the other hand, this sometimes can be a process for a believer, and not an overnight thing. Granted, it can be an overnight thing, but I think it depends on the believer. Each person is different, and only the Lord truly knows the hearts and intentions of each individual on if they are justifying sin or not. The point I want to make is that a believer should overcome grievous sin (that leads to spiritual death), and they should also fight and or seek to put away (for good) today any minor transgression or fault of character in their life (that does not lead to spiritual death even). A believer should seek to obey the Lord in everything today. They should not think that God's grace is a safety net to sin in the fact that they will know that they will sin again in the future at some undetermined date as a matter of fact.

Well then we are in quite a bit of agreement here. Huzzah!

Bible Highlighter · Aug 16, 2019

HatGuy said:
Well then we are in quite a bit of agreement here. Huzzah!

*Big hug to you in the Lord*

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 16, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
Judging by your extremely sparse response, it would appear that I've got your number.

?

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 16, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
The idea that people can overcome sin without a struggle is the height of absurdity.

You got that impression from what I said? I have certainly struggled, but must I continue to struggle? Doesn't the Scripture say, resist the Devil and he will flee from you? Certainly, and I have known that for sure. I still ascertain that Jesus bought the victory for me on the cross.

The struggle is not so much a struggle but a learning process. The Scripture does not become untrue because of my life experience.

Have I always walked in the Spirit? No, I tell you, I have not.

My objection is not to spiritual growth or the sanctifying process [as some here have described it] but to the notion that we are doomed to fail while in the body. Yes, they don't say it this way, but it is what becomes clear when you listen. Someone will usually end up saying, "You will always sin while in the flesh [and they mean body]." I find no support for this. Is Christ unable?

Just because you misunderstand me doesn't mean it is "bunk" as you called it.

By the way, what you supplied proved nothing at all.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 16, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
You are here addressing the participants in an obviously condescending manner, suggesting that we are all blind to something which only you can see.

Did you actually read the question before making this stupid accusation?

Who actually answered the question when I wrote this? The question clearly stated why would Paul....

Can you see one person who responded, Paul did, because... or the same in some other fashion?

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 16, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
But your presentation of this wonderful truth has been offensive and arguably uncharitable, which is liable to result in the exact opposite of your (hopefully) intended effect.

That, my friend, is exactly as I have found you. Stop insulting me and go away.

D.A. Wright · Aug 16, 2019

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
Did you actually read the question before making this stupid accusation?

Who actually answered the question when I wrote this? The question clearly stated why would Paul....

Can you see one person who responded, Paul did, because... or the same in some other fashion?

I will trouble you with my stupid accusations no longer.

D.A. Wright · Aug 16, 2019

Bible Highlighter said:
*Big hug to you in the Lord*

Yes, by all means, smother those with whom you agree with BIG hugs.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 16, 2019

JacksBratt said:
Do you ever eat too much? Gluttony

Do you ever say "Oh my God" Blasphemy

Do you ever get angry at other drivers, even in your head? Not treating others as you would treat yourself.

Do you ever get grumpy with someone?Same as above.

Do you ever wish you had a nicer car, house, yard, wife, job? Covetousness.

Do you ever tell even a little lie?

Do you ever look at a woman, other than your wife and think she is attractive?

Have you ever took the biggest piece of cake, pie or pizza etc?

Ya.... we still sin.... Trying to get better... quickly realize when I sin... Ask for forgiveness... but... Still a sinner.

Christ paid for all my sins, past, present and future.... Doesn't mean I go on as if I have a license.. My heart has changed and I desire to be better but unable to be perfect.

Your answer doesn't actually address the question and your list is questionable though it did make me smile. A "nicer wife"? Impossible, I have the nicest one to be found.

Quite frankly, if I were to go by your list I would likely have to say, yes, I still sin; but I think that you're proposing the traditions of men above the word of God.

Isn't it amazing how we can dismiss the old church traditions of hats, short hair, abstinence, and modest apparel and then raise up new traditions about anger, desire, and eating; taking each one to the point of ridiculous and so bind each other with burdens we won't raise a finger to help.

No, my friend, I see no sin in most of what you propose besides, I love my wife, my car, my house, my job; and taking the biggest of anything would be out of character for me. Yes, I get angry at other drivers but I am also forgiving because I know next time I will be that driver annoying someone else. I could not deny getting grumpy with others, but not to the point of murder or injury. Again, forgiveness is in order because next time I will be the reason someone gets grumpy, ask my wife [no, don't bother, there's no need]. Finding another woman attractive doesn't mean I want to go to bed with her. Eating too much? I don't think that's gluttony. Gluttony is habitual. I never say, oh my god, except in worship or prayer. "A little lie?" Well, that could be a hard one without your definition of what this little lie might be.

For example, my youngest son experienced snow for the first time in his life a week ago and was enjoying it. It was only light and fell among a soft rain.

He came inside the hall and was dusting his head off when I noticed an older lady watching him with a puzzled expression.

"Dandruff," I said then laughed and explained he was brushing the snow out of his hair.

She walked past him and commented that Head and Shoulders would help him with that.

Now, since you wrote the law above, I will allow you to be the judge of my actions but I do not believe that Christ was offended, nor was my son.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 17, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
Yes, by all means, smother those with whom you agree with BIG hugs.

Anytime you want a virtual big hug in the Lord, I am free.

Blessings to you in the Lord today.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 17, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
...

BTW (by the way) ~ I noticed in your profile that it says that you are SDA. I like Hacksaw Ridge the movie a lot. While I do not agree with the SDA church, I do like the fact that the film promotes Christ's New Covenant teaching on Non-Resistance).

In fact, this film is in "My Favorite Christian Films to Watch on Occasion" List:

Excellent Christian Films That I Can Only Watch on Rare Occasion.

If you are interested, you can also check out my "Top Most Rewatchable Christian Films" here, as well:

What Christian Movies Do You Find To Be The Most Rewatchable?

May God bless you today greatly.

tdidymas · Aug 17, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
Or, perhaps, you err in your interpretation.

What if the Bible just means exactly what it says?

But wait, that would mean we would have to accept a pardoxical interpretation and part with our cherished sin.

"our cherished sin" - are you including yourself in this statement then?

Apparently, you cannot say how I err in my interpretation, since you offered no iota of proof.

The reality is that the Bible, and even the doctrinal epistles, is a conversational and literary medium. It's not a science text book, and not a dictionary. And since the Bible, especially the NT, is conversational in nature, the words used must have a contextual meaning, as all writings do in all languages.

Therefore, your idea "the Bible just means exactly what it says" is just another way of saying you don't accept anyone's interpretation but your own. It only stands to reason that you would debunk my reasoning, since it doesn't agree with your assessment.

But anyone with any spiritual sense and faith in the Almighty would agree that the Bible is not self-contradictory, the individual writings of each apostle then would certainly not be self-contradictory, and there would not even be any disagreement between the apostles in their individual teachings.

For example, whoever would claim that James disagreed with Paul in the issue of justification based on Rom. 3:28 and Ja. 2:24, simply doesn't understand contextual meaning. And I further say that anyone who claims that the term "sin" in 1 Jn. 1:8 and 1 Jn. 3:9 has exactly the same definition, and has no distinct contextual meaning, simply doesn't understand how to read the scripture.
TD

D.A. Wright · Aug 17, 2019

tdidymas said:
"our cherished sin" - are you including yourself in this statement then?

By all means, YES!!!

tdidymas said:
Apparently, you cannot say how I err in my interpretation, since you offered no iota of proof.

By using the word "perhaps," I hoped to merely suggest the possibly that your interpretation could be in error.
By referring to your interpretation, I mean specifically that :

tdidymas said:
we must conclude that the term "sin" in these two statements have a different contextual meaning, or else he is contradicting himself.

I tend to firmly object to the loose interpretation of the term "sin." And while I find it obvious that some offenses result in more harmful earthly consequences than others and that even God, in His Holiness, which is incomparable to our frail moral standing, distinguishes among the severity of our infractions, there is still the matter of the stain we apply to His creation and the security breach in the harmony of His universe to be considered.

Not to mention the most important consideration of all, and that is the undisputable fact that every wrong thought, word an action added to the suffering of the spotless Son of God on the cross at Calvary. I prefer to tread lightly, or not at all, when presuming to qualify the exceeding sinfulness of sin (Romans 7:13).

D.A. Wright · Aug 17, 2019

tdidymas said:
The reality is that the Bible, and even the doctrinal epistles, is a conversational and literary medium. It's not a science text book, and not a dictionary. And since the Bible, especially the NT, is conversational in nature, the words used must have a contextual meaning, as all writings do in all languages.

Therefore, your idea "the Bible just means exactly what it says" is just another way of saying you don't accept anyone's interpretation but your own. It only stands to reason that you would debunk my reasoning, since it doesn't agree with your assessment.

But anyone with any spiritual sense and faith in the Almighty would agree that the Bible is not self-contradictory, the individual writings of each apostle then would certainly not be self-contradictory, and there would not even be any disagreement between the apostles in their individual teachings.

For example, whoever would claim that James disagreed with Paul in the issue of justification based on Rom. 3:28 and Ja. 2:24, simply doesn't understand contextual meaning. And I further say that anyone who claims that the term "sin" in 1 Jn. 1:8 and 1 Jn. 3:9 has exactly the same definition, and has no distinct contextual meaning, simply doesn't understand how to read the scripture.
TD

Did I miss the offering plate? Desn't that usually come first? Unless all of this was directed at me, personally, in which case, at least you said it with a smile.

JacksBratt · Aug 17, 2019

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
Your answer doesn't actually address the question and your list is questionable though it did make me smile. A "nicer wife"? Impossible, I have the nicest one to be found.

Quite frankly, if I were to go by your list I would likely have to say, yes, I still sin; but I think that you're proposing the traditions of men above the word of God.

Isn't it amazing how we can dismiss the old church traditions of hats, short hair, abstinence, and modest apparel and then raise up new traditions about anger, desire, and eating; taking each one to the point of ridiculous and so bind each other with burdens we won't raise a finger to help.

No, my friend, I see no sin in most of what you propose besides, I love my wife, my car, my house, my job; and taking the biggest of anything would be out of character for me. Yes, I get angry at other drivers but I am also forgiving because I know next time I will be that driver annoying someone else. I could not deny getting grumpy with others, but not to the point of murder or injury. Again, forgiveness is in order because next time I will be the reason someone gets grumpy, ask my wife [no, don't bother, there's no need]. Finding another woman attractive doesn't mean I want to go to bed with her. Eating too much? I don't think that's gluttony. Gluttony is habitual. I never say, oh my god, except in worship or prayer. "A little lie?" Well, that could be a hard one without your definition of what this little lie might be.

For example, my youngest son experienced snow for the first time in his life a week ago and was enjoying it. It was only light and fell among a soft rain.

He came inside the hall and was dusting his head off when I noticed an older lady watching him with a puzzled expression.

"Dandruff," I said then laughed and explained he was brushing the snow out of his hair.

She walked past him and commented that Head and Shoulders would help him with that.

Now, since you wrote the law above, I will allow you to be the judge of my actions but I do not believe that Christ was offended, nor was my son.

If I rememeber correctly, it was Christ that said that even thinking of another woman was adultary...Jesus raised the bar... anything we do to another person that is not what we would like done to us.... now a sin.

Not to mention swearing and the others are not in keeping with Christ's first "new" command of "Love the lord your God with all your heart"

So, I stand by my view that although I am a child of God and my soul will receive salvation... I still sin... even though my goal is not to.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 18, 2019

JacksBratt said:
If I rememeber correctly, it was Christ that said that even thinking of another woman was adultary...Jesus raised the bar... anything we do to another person that is not what we would like done to us.... now a sin.

Actually, you remember quite incorrectly, or meant more than you allowed in you statement about finding women attractive.

Matthew 5:28 quotes Jesus as saying, "Whoever looks on a woman to lust after her has committed adultery in his heart already."

Do you have to lust after someone you see as beautiful? I don't.

Yes, Jesus did raise the bar because he wanted us to see the heart of the matter. He speaks of the heart in another place.

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man." Mark 7: 21 to 23.

A heart that is iniquitous will be drawn to sin. A heart that is righteous will be drawn from it.

Has Jesus changed your heart?

Quite frankly, I don't think of other woman.

When we were younger my wife became frustrated when I pressed her for sex and said, "I don't know why you need to have sex all the time, why don't you go and find another woman?"

I replied, "Because I don't want another woman, I want you."

Later, for our 33rd wedding anniversary I wrote 10 songs as a gift for her and the one is entitled I Will Never Love Another.

That is my heart. Lovemaking is not about the physical pleasure alone, it is about the one I chose and love.

Let me say that I have quite a different view of the physical relationship and you will possibly disagree with it, but it is how I learned to overcome lust.

1. I saw that copulation is for this life only. We won't be doing it in heaven. This is based on Jesus'words that there is neither male or female in heaven for we are like the angels.

2. When I looked at Genesis 1 and 2 I noted that chapter 1 is a summary of creation leading to the final command to copulate and fill the earth. I noticed in chapter 3 that this command came after the fall of mankind where it is prophesies that a man will leave his mother and father and, cleaving to his wife they become one flesh.

3. I concluded then, using the thoughts and words of Scripture that sex is for the dying and not the living. It is a gift to corruption and not to incorruption.

Does this mean that we ought not to copulate? No, by all means, it is the gift of God; but do it in a godly fashion: with you wife.

However I am of the incorruptible by the grace of God, the gift of Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost. Copulation is not high in my priorities, but we are commanded to fill the new earth, and we do this by being witnesses to the testimony of the Spirit.

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 18, 2019

I have a comment to make here regarding the sin of adultery. Not the sin itself, but to show that the Law is merely a schoolmaster needed by some to come to Christ.

We have the testimony of 2 men: Joseph and king David. Both were tempted to commit adultery. David lusted and Joseph did not.

Now Joseph was before the Law and without it while David lived within the Law.

Joseph was tempted by Potiphar's wife and, knowing it to be sin, resisted.

David was tempted when he saw Bathsheba and, though he knew it was sin, committed.

Joseph was justified without the Law and David was condemned by the Law.

Both Grace and the final judgment operate outside the Law but they do not contradict the Law.

Can you see this?

D.A. Wright · Aug 22, 2019

Llewelyn Stevenson said:
However I am of the incorruptible by the grace of God, the gift of Christ, and the power of the Holy Ghost.

Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(1 Corinthians 15:50-54)

Llewelyn Stevenson · Aug 30, 2019

D.A. Wright said:
Now this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
(1 Corinthians 15:50-54)

I guess you are challenging my statement of being incorruptible, but I didn't say I was incorruptible but "of the incorruptible" meaning that I expect to experience exactly what this Scripture declares. I have said it before and I will say it again, you need to look from the eternal perspective and with eternal values.

Perhaps I can give you another example of eternal perspective.

I have two sons whom I love dearly and am proud of their earthly accomplishments, however there is one thing that delights me even more: that I was able to lead them both to an established faith in Jesus Christ.

Consider this. Sons I have for this life and get to enjoy them as long as I live [or they if anything untoward should happen] but brothers I have for all eternity. It therefore pleases me to have lost two sons and gained them as brothers because, as brothers, our relationship is eternal. This same goes for my wife with whom I have enjoyed 39 years of a great marriage. It pleases me more to own her as my sister in the Lord and our relationship remain eternal.

I look forward to the day when we all will be caught up into the presence of the Lord.
I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Philippians 3:14

Sinlessness

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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