LDS Blood Atonement
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Again, He wouldn't command that if His Spirit indwelling us couldn't accomplish that. But without the Spirit it would be impossible.
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The text is contrasts. Do you really believe verse 6 is a Christian??? Walking in darkness? Oh please!
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ViaCrucis
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"This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." - 1 John 1:5-10
You're right, the Christian does not walk in darkness because we have been illuminated with the truth of the Gospel, as St. Paul says,
"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." - Colossians 1:12-14
"He has qualified you", how? By justifying us freely by His grace.
And so being justified He has caused us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.
So who is the one who walks in the light? The one who is justified. The one who is justified has been made a saint, not by a holiness which they themselves posses, but by the holiness of Jesus Christ. And so having been justified, redeemed, saved, we have been delivered from the domain of darkness, having been liberated from the captivity of the devil, recall the author of Hebrews who wrote,
"Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." - Hebrews 2:14-15
For Christ having defeated the devil, destroying the power of death, has brought freedom to the captive. And so we, who were captives of the devil, held in bondage to sin, held in slavery to death, have been redeemed and ransomed, "You are not your own, you were bought with a price." (1 Corinthians 6:19-20). So having been ransomed, redeemed, purchased by the precious blood of the Lamb of God we have been delivered from darkness into the light of God, the light of God's only-begotten Son, who has made us free, as it is written, "If the Son has set you free, you are free indeed." (John 8:36).
And so we are now called to walk in the light, even as He is in the light. For the blood of Christ has cleansed us of all our sins.
But, says the Presbyter, if we say we are without sin then we are liars. For how can the sinner, purchased by Christ's blood, now turn and say they are without sin? For it is precisely their sin that condemned them. So how can the one who has been justified turn around and say "I have no sin." So having said this such a person has denied the very Gospel which has given him his freedom. Instead the one who is justified and redeemed must be reminded of this precious Gospel, that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. The one who has believed upon the Gospel is one who falls down and cries like the righteous publican, "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner." So the one who says they have not sinned, the one who says they are not a sinner, this is one who has not believed the Gospel, if we tread against the truth like this, His word is not in us, we deny the Gospel and dwell in falsehood.
It is the redeemed man who seeks after God, not the unregenerate; for the unregenerate cannot, as it is written, "no one seeks after God." (Romans 3:11).
If the Spirit is alive in us, then we fall to our knees in repentance, hoping and trusting in the grace of God, for it is only by the Spirit that we have faith, it is only by the Spirit that one can say, "Jesus Christ is Lord." and we know that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, and shall never be put to shame, as it is written, "For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. For the Scripture says, 'Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.' ... For 'everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'" (Romans 10:10-11, 13) And this word has gone forth, preached and declared, and by this precious Gospel we have received faith, as the Apostle writes, "For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17)
Therefore pray and pray hard, for you are quite a sinner.
And so am I.
Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner.
-CryptoLutheran
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Peter1000
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I believe that a person can possibly live a sinless life, but I'm not sure a sinless person would make this sort of statement, "You're a smart guy, don't play dumb".
These kinds of words are "fightin words", and a sinless one would never consider provoking a fight. Right?
But I do like the idea that you do not struggle with sin. I wish I could say the same. I am close in my actions, but my inner thoughts are a struggle. Any advise?
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Thank you for your assessment. Because I disagreed with you about how many sins are unforgivable, you accuse me of spitting in your face? I'm sorry that you came to that opinion.
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Brigham Young always had a lot to say.
...Brother Cummings told you the truth this morning with regard to the sins of the people. And I will say that the time will come, and is now nigh at hand, when those who profess our faith, if they are guilty of what some of this people are guilty of, will find the axe laid at the root of the tree, and they will be hewn down. What has been must be again, for the Lord is coming to restore all things. The time has been in Israel under the law of God, the celestial law, or that which pertains to the celestial law, for it is one of the laws of that kingdom where our Father dwells, that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand. But now I say, in the name of the Lord, that if this people will sin no more, but faithfully live their religion, their sins will be forgiven them without taking life.
You are aware that when brother Cummings came to the point of loving our neighbours as ourselves, he could say yes or no as the case might be, that is true. But I want to connect it with the doctrine you read in the Bible. When will we love our neighbour as ourselves? In the first place, Jesus said that no man hateth his own flesh. It is admitted by all that every person loves himself. Now if we do rightly love ourselves, we want to be saved and continue to exist, we want to go into the kingdom where we can enjoy eternity and see no more sorrow nor death. This is the desire of every person who believes in God. Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom of our God and our Father, and being exalted, one who knows and understands the principles of eternal life, and sees the beauty and excellency of the eternities before him compared with the vain and foolish things of the world, and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, "shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?"
All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant. He never told a man or woman to love their enemies in their wickedness, never. He never intended any such thing; his language is left as it is for those to read who have the Spirit to discern between truth and error; it was so left for those who can discern the things of God. Jesus Christ never meant that we should love a wicked man in his wickedness.
Now take the wicked, and I can refer to where the Lord had to slay every soul of the Israelites that went out of Egypt, except Caleb and Joshua. He slew them by the hands of their enemies, by the plague, and by the sword, why? Because He loved them, and promised Abraham that He would save them. And He loved Abraham because he was a friend to his God, and would stick to Him in the hour of darkness, hence He promised Abraham that He would save his seed. And He could save them upon no other principle, for they had forfeited their right to the land of Canaan by transgressing the law of God, and they could not have atoned for the sin if they had lived. But if they were slain, the Lord could bring them up in the resurrection, and give them the land of Canaan, and He could not do it on any other principle.
I could refer you to plenty of instances where men, have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up—conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force.
This is loving our neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.
President Brigham Young, Salt lake City, February 8, 1857, JoD, pp. 219-220
Yes, I own all volumes of the Journal of Discourses.
...Brother Cummings told you the truth this morning with regard to the sins of the people. And I will say that the time will come, and is now nigh at hand, when those who profess our faith, if they are guilty of what some of this people are guilty of, will find the axe laid at the root of the tree, and they will be hewn down. What has been must be again, for the Lord is coming to restore all things. The time has been in Israel under the law of God, the celestial law, or that which pertains to the celestial law, for it is one of the laws of that kingdom where our Father dwells, that if a man was found guilty of adultery, he must have his blood shed, and that is near at hand. But now I say, in the name of the Lord, that if this people will sin no more, but faithfully live their religion, their sins will be forgiven them without taking life.
You are aware that when brother Cummings came to the point of loving our neighbours as ourselves, he could say yes or no as the case might be, that is true. But I want to connect it with the doctrine you read in the Bible. When will we love our neighbour as ourselves? In the first place, Jesus said that no man hateth his own flesh. It is admitted by all that every person loves himself. Now if we do rightly love ourselves, we want to be saved and continue to exist, we want to go into the kingdom where we can enjoy eternity and see no more sorrow nor death. This is the desire of every person who believes in God. Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved in the kingdom of our God and our Father, and being exalted, one who knows and understands the principles of eternal life, and sees the beauty and excellency of the eternities before him compared with the vain and foolish things of the world, and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin, and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, "shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?"
All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers or sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant. He never told a man or woman to love their enemies in their wickedness, never. He never intended any such thing; his language is left as it is for those to read who have the Spirit to discern between truth and error; it was so left for those who can discern the things of God. Jesus Christ never meant that we should love a wicked man in his wickedness.
Now take the wicked, and I can refer to where the Lord had to slay every soul of the Israelites that went out of Egypt, except Caleb and Joshua. He slew them by the hands of their enemies, by the plague, and by the sword, why? Because He loved them, and promised Abraham that He would save them. And He loved Abraham because he was a friend to his God, and would stick to Him in the hour of darkness, hence He promised Abraham that He would save his seed. And He could save them upon no other principle, for they had forfeited their right to the land of Canaan by transgressing the law of God, and they could not have atoned for the sin if they had lived. But if they were slain, the Lord could bring them up in the resurrection, and give them the land of Canaan, and He could not do it on any other principle.
I could refer you to plenty of instances where men, have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance (in the last resurrection there will be) if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the devil, until our elder brother Jesus Christ raises them up—conquers death, hell, and the grave. I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them. The wickedness and ignorance of the nations forbid this principle's being in full force, but the time will come when the law of God will be in full force.
This is loving our neighbour as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. Any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.
President Brigham Young, Salt lake City, February 8, 1857, JoD, pp. 219-220
Yes, I own all volumes of the Journal of Discourses.
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Very well said. Yes, 1 John 1:8 is not a Christian. What John, a Hebrew, is using the Semitic writing style of contrasts. He also uses this style in chapter 3.
3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. 11 For this is the message that you heard from the beginning, that we should love one another, 12 not as Cain who was of the wicked one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his works were evil and his brother’s righteous.
13 Do not marvel, my brethren, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
16 By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us. And we also ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 17 But whoever has this world’s goods, and sees his brother in need, and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. 20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
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It was a compliment. I acknowledged I see him as intelligent, and playing dumb is beneath him. And his next post shows he finally saw that 1 John 1:8 is not about a Christian, and wrote a wonderful post. A light went on and he saw the truth of what John is saying. We are now on the same page.
Get very honest with God and tell Him of your struggle. Ask him for the mind of Christ. We need to truly repent of our sin nature to receive the divine nature of 2 Peter 1
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He is the way
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(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:18 - 22)
18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
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He is the way
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You do not know who sins and who doesn't. You are making assumptions.
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He is the way
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God does not free us from sins we continue to commit once we know the right way. God expects us to stop sinning completely.
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ViaCrucis
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If that's what you got out of what I said then either I wasn't being clear enough or you misunderstood what I was saying.
1 John 1:8 is absolutely talking about Christians.
-CryptoLutheran
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