John Wesley and Holiness.

Phil W · Aug 8, 2019

bmjackson said:
I can't seem to edit but I wanted to say that Augustine believed in water baptism. Where do you differ from him elsewhere?

Who cares.
Did he ever once say he was free of sin? A non-sinner?
Perfect?
Those are the men worth following.

Phil W · Aug 8, 2019

Dave-W said:
What you are talking about is our legal status before God. We are declared righteous and holy by the work of our Lord.

Not just declared righteous, but really righteous.

If I understand correctly, bmjackson is talking about our actual walk in this life being holy and righteous. Those are 2 very different things.

It is for those who like being called righteous while they go about being unrighteous,

As to "gradual sanctification" being a false doctrine; Paul supports it:
2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

From glory to glory. One step at a time. Gradually looking more and more in this life like our Lord.

It is the fault of your version of scripture, having added "being transformed" that leads to our differing POVs.
I was sanctified when the atoning blood of Christ was applied to my body.
That happened when I was "immersed" into Christ and into His death burial and resurrection at my water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of my sins.(Rom 6:3-6, Acts 2:38)
It is a done deal.[/QUOTE]

CharismaticLady · Aug 16, 2019

bmjackson said:
The time he took from first hearing of holiness to the time when he was entirely sanctified, 13 years in fact, is typical of the pattern in others.

Wow, I thought back to my own experience and 13 years was exact for me too.

I was thinking about John Wesley a few weeks ago and went on ebay to see what books I could find about him, or by him. I saw one called The Life of John Wesley, so looked through them for the cheapest copy. $14.98. When I received it, it turned out to be a leather bound first American edition, 1832.

I've started reading it and have found that his mother was very influential in his life. This book has letters from her. I think I would have loved her.

bmjackson · Aug 16, 2019

It was 17 years for me.

Mrs Wesley was an amazing woman wasn't she. I would have loved to have met her - home schooled 17 children!

What an amazing find regarding the book.

Dave-W · Aug 16, 2019

I have met a few people that claim entire sanctification; but they do so only by watering down the definition of sin to include ONLY willful disobedience. The actual definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words are archery terms meaning to aim at a target but miss.

That is not willful.

bmjackson · Aug 16, 2019

Dave-W said:
I have met a few people that claim entire sanctification; but they do so only by watering down the definition of sin to include ONLY willful disobedience. The actual definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words are archery terms meaning to aim at a target but miss.

That is not willful.

During my time of entire sanctification, I did not water down my interpretation of sin being only deliberate. All of my thoughts were pure and my heart was 100% praising God all of the time. It was like living in another dimension - well it was exactly. It was 100% on the 'mountain top' all of the time.

Don't ask me why I am not there at present. I have fallen from it before without understanding why but was later restored.

CharismaticLady · Aug 16, 2019

Dave-W said:
I have met a few people that claim entire sanctification; but they do so only by watering down the definition of sin to include ONLY willful disobedience. The actual definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words are archery terms meaning to aim at a target but miss.

That is not willful.

Willful sins of lawlessness were the only sins in the Old Testament that there was NO sacrifice to cover them. But there WAS sacrifice to cover unintentional sins.

CharismaticLady · Aug 16, 2019

bmjackson said:
During my time of entire sanctification, I did not water down my interpretation of sin being only deliberate. All of my thoughts were pure and my heart was 100% praising God all of the time. It was like living in another dimension - well it was exactly. It was 100% on the 'mountain top' all of the time.

Don't ask me why I am not there at present. I have fallen from it before without understanding why but was later restored.

I understand.

bmjackson · Aug 16, 2019

Phil W · Aug 16, 2019

Dave-W said:
I have met a few people that claim entire sanctification; but they do so only by watering down the definition of sin to include ONLY willful disobedience. The actual definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words are archery terms meaning to aim at a target but miss.
That is not willful.

I go with John's definition of sin in 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."
And I use James 1:14-15 to define it further..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
James is lending credence to the position that all sin is intentional.
I agree.

Phil W · Aug 16, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Willful sins of lawlessness were the only sins in the Old Testament that there was NO sacrifice to cover them. But there WAS sacrifice to cover unintentional sins.

On what do you base this POV?
Wasn't king David's murder and adultery "lawlessness"?
Wasn't he ever atoned for?

CharismaticLady · Aug 16, 2019

Phil W said:
On what do you base this POV?
Wasn't king David's murder and adultery "lawlessness"?
Wasn't he ever atoned for?

Hi Phil,

One day I looked up what happened to people in the Old Testament that broke one of the Ten Commandments. On the examples I found they were all stoned to death. No sacrifice saved them. Even unruly teenagers disobeying their parents. Read Numbers 15:22-36. It shows the sacrifice for unintentional sins. But reading to the end they killed a guy for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

1 John 3:4 shows the kind of sin John is talking about - LAWlessness. In other words, a sin unto death, just like in the Old Testament. These a Christian cannot commit. It is just not in our nature to murder, etc. In chapter 3, John is not talking about sins not unto death - unintentional sins that are covered under the blood as long as we forgive each other these "trespasses." Trespasses are unwittingly committed." Leviticus 5:15. In the Lord's prayer where we ask forgiveness of our sins, it is actually "trespasses" not willful sins of lawlessness. And in Matthew 6:14-15 it says,
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Unintentional sins are committed by even those while walking in the Spirit. But as you see at the end of 1 John 1:7 the blood of Jesus is cleansing us of sin - trespasses, not willful sins of lawlessness.

Then look at Hebrews 10:26-31 about a willful sin.

David is an odd case, for sure. And even though it was a sin unto death, God did not demand David's life, but He did take his son. So there was death involved. I remember when I was on my knees truly repenting, and then was amazingly baptized with the Holy Spirit. I prayed the same prayer that David did in Psalms 51:10

Phil W · Aug 16, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Hi Phil,

One day I looked up what happened to people in the Old Testament that broke one of the Ten Commandments. On the examples I found they were all stoned to death. No sacrifice saved them. Even unruly teenagers disobeying their parents. Read Numbers 15:22-36. It shows the sacrifice for unintentional sins. But reading to the end they killed a guy for picking up sticks on the Sabbath.

1 John 3:4 shows the kind of sin John is talking about - LAWlessness. In other words, a sin unto death, just like in the Old Testament. These a Christian cannot commit. It is just not in our nature to murder, etc. In chapter 3, John is not talking about sins not unto death - unintentional sins that are covered under the blood as long as we forgive each other these "trespasses." Trespasses are unwittingly committed." Leviticus 5:15. In the Lord's prayer where we ask forgiveness of our sins, it is actually "trespasses" not willful sins of lawlessness. And in Matthew 6:14-15 it says,
14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

Unintentional sins are committed by even those while walking in the Spirit. But as you see at the end of 1 John 1:7 the blood of Jesus is cleansing us of sin - trespasses, not willful sins of lawlessness.

Then look at Hebrews 10:26-31 about a willful sin.

David is an odd case, for sure. And even though it was a sin unto death, God did not demand David's life, but He did take his son. So there was death involved. I remember when I was on my knees truly repenting, and then was amazingly baptized with the Holy Spirit. I prayed the same prayer that David did in Psalms 51:10

I don't buy any of your hair-splitting.
Sin is sin, whether it is "called" iniquity, lawlessness, back-sliding, unintentional, stumbling, or just plain sin.
You are in effect legitimizing a type of sin, calling them trespasses.

CharismaticLady · Aug 17, 2019

Phil W said:
I don't buy any of your hair-splitting.
Sin is sin, whether it is "called" iniquity, lawlessness, back-sliding, unintentional, stumbling, or just plain sin.
You are in effect legitimizing a type of sin, calling them trespasses.

Well, Phil, you asked and I answered the best I could believing your question was legitimate. 1 John 5:16-17 shows sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death, and it is the Spirit filled who know the difference. Your unloving response is really more like a Calvinist than a Wesleyan. I forgive you your trespass against me.

Phil W · Aug 17, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Well, Phil, you asked and I answered the best I could believing your question was legitimate. 1 John 5:16-17 shows sins unto death, and sins NOT unto death, and it is the Spirit filled who know the difference. Your unloving response is really more like a Calvinist than a Wesleyan. I forgive you your trespass against me.

A sin unto death is one never repented of.
A sin not unto death is one that has been turned from...permanently.

Phil W · Aug 17, 2019

Phil W said:
A sin unto death is one never repented of.
A sin not unto death is one that has been turned from...permanently.

If you feel my response was "unloving", would you prefer that I let you burn?

Dave-W · Aug 18, 2019

Phil W said:
I go with John's definition of sin in 1 John 5:17..."All unrighteousness is sin:..."
And I use James 1:14-15 to define it further..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
James is lending credence to the position that all sin is intentional.

Those are only partial definitions to support the point each author was making.

Phil W · Aug 23, 2019

Dave-W said:
Those are only partial definitions to support the point each author was making.

Isn't that kinda besides the point?
All unrighteousness is sin.

Phil W · Aug 23, 2019

Dave-W said:
What you are talking about is our legal status before God. We are declared righteous and holy by the work of our Lord.

If I understand correctly, bmjackson is talking about our actual walk in this life being holy and righteous. Those are 2 very different things.

As to "gradual sanctification" being a false doctrine; Paul supports it:

2 Corinthians 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

From glory to glory. One step at a time. Gradually looking more and more in this life like our Lord.

Ever met anyone who was done with the "graduality" and was completely set apart, atoned for, sanctified, consecrated, and what ever else is a definition of sanctification?
This "gradual doctrine" is a guarantee that nobody is or will ever be truly "Godly".
It is a formula for failure.

Dave-W · Aug 23, 2019

Phil W said:
Ever met anyone who was done with the "graduality" and was completely set apart, atoned for, sanctified, consecrated, and what ever else is a definition of sanctification?
This "gradual doctrine" is a guarantee that nobody is or will ever be truly "Godly".
It is a formula for failure.

I have met a couple of people that claimed that. BUt it was only willful, Conscious sin, not the trying but failing type.

John Wesley and Holiness.

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