Where are you on the Calvinism Chart?

Where do you stand?

  • Hyper-Calvinist

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ultra-High Calvinist

    Votes: 1 1.6%
  • High Calvinist

    Votes: 5 8.1%
  • Moderate Calvinist

    Votes: 8 12.9%
  • Low Calvinist

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Lutheran

    Votes: 7 11.3%
  • American "Baptist"

    Votes: 3 4.8%
  • Arminian

    Votes: 13 21.0%
  • None or Other (explain)

    Votes: 25 40.3%

  • Total voters
    62

redleghunter

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Both Calvinism and Armenianism have the same, fatal flaw; neither understand how salvation actually works. Both foundationally assume that faith directly qualifies a person for righteousness and salvation. Yet the scripture is clear that faith qualifies a person for kinship with the elect group - the descendants of Abraham. Abraham's offspring are the 'chosen people.' The whole group of them. The scripture describes that, when we have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ as Abraham we are considered offspring of Abraham ... this is WHY God changed Abram's name to Abraham.

So the process of salvation through faith is INDIRECT, and not direct as both Calvinism and Armnianism blindly presuppose. Our faith qualifies us for the elect group, and the elect group INHERIT the righteousness given to Abraham.

So then the elect group has 'open enrollment' by faith.
Ok...then what does Paul say in Romans chapter 4 about descendants of Abraham were through what?
 
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Gup20

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Ok...then what does Paul say in Romans chapter 4 about descendants of Abraham were through what?
[Rom 4:9-16 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

[Gal 3:6-9, 29 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.

[Gal 4:21-28 NASB] 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.​

The two covenants are: 1) The Law & 2) Faith. The children born of faith will be more numerous than the children born of The Law.

Why do you suppose Genesis 17 says:

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.​

This everlasting covenant was never meant to be to one nation - not just the nation of Israel, but the many nations whom God was grafting in -- from the very beginning! Three times God describes this covenant to "the father of many nations" before promising that the covenant would be to Abraham and to his descendants from those many nations.
 
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redleghunter

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[Rom 4:9-16 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

[Gal 3:6-9, 29 NASB] 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Isa 54:1 NASB] 1 "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no [child;] Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one [will be] more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.

[Gal 4:21-28 NASB] 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.​

The two covenants are: 1) The Law & 2) Faith. The children born of faith will be more numerous than the children born of The Law.

Why do you suppose Genesis 17 says:

[Gen 17:4-7 NASB] 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.​

This everlasting covenant was never meant to be to one nation - not just the nation of Israel, but the many nations whom God was grafting in -- from the very beginning! Three times God describes this covenant to "the father of many nations" before promising that the covenant would be to Abraham and to his descendants from those many nations.
This does not address the corporate election you seem to be employing here. Paul is showing the comparison between Law and Grace. He is not promoting corporate election. He is showing in your quotes that we come to the Righteousness of God through faith and Abraham is the example he uses to demonstrate this as when he was reckoned righteous before God both circumcision and the Law was yet to be established.

Now it is not an either/or but both. Once we are Justified, reckoned righteous through Jesus Christ we are then corporately His church.

We are reckoned righteous through Jesus Christ by faith. He explains this in the following chapter in Romans 5:

Romans 5: NASB

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
 
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Gup20

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This does not address the corporate election you seem to be employing here. Paul is showing the comparison between Law and Grace. He is not promoting corporate election. He is showing in your quotes that we come to the Righteousness of God through faith and Abraham is the example he uses to demonstrate this as when he was reckoned righteous before God both circumcision and the Law was yet to be established.
I disagree. I'm not talking about "corporate election" so much as an elect group.. .a chosen group. The group are: the descendants of Abraham. In other Bible translations it says "Abraham's seed."

[Rom 4:11-13, 16-17 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

[Isa 41:8 NASB] 8 "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend,​

Typically, Israel refers to the faith covenant and Jacob refers to the law covenant. This is why many verses distinguish the two descendant lines.

[Heb 2:16 NASB] 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

[Luk 19:9 NASB] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

In Luke, Jesus was talking about Zacheus... he was born a Jew, so was always a 'descendant of Abraham' but Jesus links salvation as having come to that house THAT DAY because that is when Zacheus believed and became a true descendant.

Jesus himself in this links Salvation to being a descendant of Abraham. This wasn't the first time either. In John 8 Jesus spends a very long chapter linking salvation to being a descendant of Abraham, concluding that their spiritual "father" was not Abraham, but was Satan.

[Jhn 8:39, 44 NASB] 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. ... 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies.
This shows Jesus sees the descendants of Abraham as a spiritual kinship, not a physical one.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. We see a lot of precedent in scripture that God has a "chosen people" who are a group, not individuals. Virtually no Calvinist disputes that Israel is God's chosen people and they are not "chosen" as individuals but because they belong to the group.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;


Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

Now it is not an either/or but both. Once we are Justified, reckoned righteous through Jesus Christ we are then corporately His church.
We are reckoned righteous through Jesus Christ by faith. He explains this in the following chapter in Romans 5:

Romans 5: NASB

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:12-21 describe a transition from the corporate judgment of Adam and that corporate judgment being repealed in lieu of individual judgments from which we are spared by grace. For example,

[Rom 5:16, 18 NASB] 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. ... 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

Think about this - Adam's sin brought corporate judgment into the world. Everything and everyone was judged with the curse -- All people, all plants, all animals, the ground, the rocks, everything. Even the things that never sinned (Rom 5:14). However, how many people do you have to forgive in order to repeal Adam's judgment? One person. Anyone guilty in Adam. Because it was 1 sin that caused the corporate judgment. If any person or thing guilty of that sin in Adam is forgiven, then it forgives the 1 sin and all are simultaneously forgiven. Yet, what does that passage say? The free gift arose from many transgressions. So the free gift of righteousness is applied in the individual judgment, not the corporate judgment. The fact that Jesus came to earth and lived a sinless life necessitated a repeal of the corporate judgment because it was no longer just. This is replaced, then, by individual judgments.

Consider:

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
.


[Rev 20:11-12 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.​

So the great white throne judgment is individual judgments based on individual deeds. However, Adam's judgement was a corporate judgment for a single deed. A repeal of Adam's corporate judgment (death, the curse) will cause every single person who's ever died to be resurrected to face individual judgments. According to Romans 5, it is the individual judgment which the gift of grace applies (it arose from many transgressions). The book of life applies to us in the 2nd, individual judgment, not in Adam's repealed judgment.

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

So Christ really does have the affect of resurrecting every human being, but this doesn't mean that they will escape judgement. Some will have a second death because of the individual judgment.
 
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redleghunter

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I disagree. I'm not talking about "corporate election" so much as an elect group.. .a chosen group. The group are: the descendants of Abraham. In other Bible translations it says "Abraham's seed."

[Rom 4:11-13, 16-17 NASB] 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.​

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]

[Isa 41:8 NASB] 8 "But you, Israel, My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, Descendant of Abraham My friend,​

Typically, Israel refers to the faith covenant and Jacob refers to the law covenant. This is why many verses distinguish the two descendant lines.

[Heb 2:16 NASB] 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

[Luk 19:9 NASB] 9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he, too, is a son of Abraham.

Galatians 3:7
Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.

Galatians 3:9
So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises,
5 whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

In Luke, Jesus was talking about Zacheus... he was born a Jew, so was always a 'descendant of Abraham' but Jesus links salvation as having come to that house THAT DAY because that is when Zacheus believed and became a true descendant.

Jesus himself in this links Salvation to being a descendant of Abraham. This wasn't the first time either. In John 8 Jesus spends a very long chapter linking salvation to being a descendant of Abraham, concluding that their spiritual "father" was not Abraham, but was Satan.

[Jhn 8:39, 44 NASB] 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. ... 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies.
This shows Jesus sees the descendants of Abraham as a spiritual kinship, not a physical one.

John Calvin himself said of God’s predestined elect, “God has attested this [predestination] not only in individual persons, but has given us an example of it in the whole offspring of Abraham."

So even John Calvin recognized that God chose Abraham’s descendants as a group, and not each person individually. We see a lot of precedent in scripture that God has a "chosen people" who are a group, not individuals. Virtually no Calvinist disputes that Israel is God's chosen people and they are not "chosen" as individuals but because they belong to the group.

Deuteronomy 7:6
For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,
8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD your God, He is God, the faithful God, who keeps His covenant and His lovingkindness to a thousandth generation with those who love Him and keep His commandments;


Nehemiah 9:7
You are the LORD God, Who chose Abram And brought him out from Ur of the Chaldees, And gave him the name Abraham.
8 You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite— To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.


Romans 5:12-21 describe a transition from the corporate judgment of Adam and that corporate judgment being repealed in lieu of individual judgments from which we are spared by grace. For example,

[Rom 5:16, 18 NASB] 16 The gift is not like [that which came] through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment [arose] from one [transgression] resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift [arose] from many transgressions resulting in justification. ... 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

Think about this - Adam's sin brought corporate judgment into the world. Everything and everyone was judged with the curse -- All people, all plants, all animals, the ground, the rocks, everything. Even the things that never sinned (Rom 5:14). However, how many people do you have to forgive in order to repeal Adam's judgment? One person. Anyone guilty in Adam. Because it was 1 sin that caused the corporate judgment. If any person or thing guilty of that sin in Adam is forgiven, then it forgives the 1 sin and all are simultaneously forgiven. Yet, what does that passage say? The free gift arose from many transgressions. So the free gift of righteousness is applied in the individual judgment, not the corporate judgment. The fact that Jesus came to earth and lived a sinless life necessitated a repeal of the corporate judgment because it was no longer just. This is replaced, then, by individual judgments.

Consider:

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.


Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt
.


[Rev 20:11-12 NASB] 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.​

So the great white throne judgment is individual judgments based on individual deeds. However, Adam's judgement was a corporate judgment for a single deed. A repeal of Adam's corporate judgment (death, the curse) will cause every single person who's ever died to be resurrected to face individual judgments. According to Romans 5, it is the individual judgment which the gift of grace applies (it arose from many transgressions). The book of life applies to us in the 2nd, individual judgment, not in Adam's repealed judgment.

[1Co 15:21-22 NASB] 21 For since by a man [came] death, by a man also [came] the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

So Christ really does have the affect of resurrecting every human being, but this doesn't mean that they will escape judgement. Some will have a second death because of the individual judgment.
I see we got our lines crossed. I see now how you differentiated according to Romans 4. Yes those saved by Grace through faith are of the seed of Abraham.
 
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charsan

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You may see me as your "enemy", but I follow what is revealed in Scripture and that is what I espouse..

I will pray for you even while you hate me for my faith in in Christ.

Did I say I hate you? No. I hate the system your enslaved to and I pray that God delivers all from that system of demons.
 
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Silverback

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  1. Hyper-Calvinism: Beliefs: God is the author of sin and man has no responsibility before God. The Gospel should only preached to the elect. i.e. duty faith. and anti-missionary Belief in the five points is a prerequisite for true salvation, also known as Neo-Gnostic Calvinism. Proponents: Joseph Hussey John Skepp and some English primitive Baptists.

  2. Ultra High Calvinism: Beliefs: That the elect are in some sense eternally justified. A denial of: The Well–Meant Offer; Common Grace; and God having any love for the non-elect. Proponents: John Gill, some ministers in the Protestant Reformed Church of America

  3. High Calvinism: Beliefs: That God in no sense desires to save the reprobate, Most deny the Well-Meant Offer. Supralapsarian viewing God’s decrees. All hold to limited atonement. Most believe in particular grace and see the atonement as sufficient only for the elect. Proponents: Theodore Beza, Gordon Clark, Arthur Pink

  4. Moderate Calvinism: Beliefs: That God does in some sense desires to save the reprobate, Infralapsarian in viewing God’s decrees. Affirms Common Grace. Proponents: John Calvin (some argue that he was a High-Calvinist), John Murray, RL Dabney

  5. Low Calvinism: Beliefs: That Christ died for all in a legal sense, so one can speak of Christ dying for the non-elect. That God has two distinct wills. Affirms the Well-Meant Offer and Common Grace, Proponents: Amyraldrians , RT Kendal

  6. Lutheranism: Beliefs: That Calvinist over emphasize God Sovereignty over man’s responsibility. That Christ died for all in legal sense, that some are predestined on to life but none are predestined onto death. That the sacraments are means of grace regardless of one’s faith. Proponents: Martin Luther, Philipp Melanchthon, Rod Rosenbladt

  7. American Baptist: Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. Once a persons believes the gospel, he is eternally secure. Rejects Calvinism, some would even call it heretical. Proponents: Jerry Falwell, Adrian Rogers

  8. Arminianism Beliefs: That God has given man libertarian freedom, that God’s knowledge of future is solely based on His foreknowledge. That Christ died for all and desires all to be saved. A person can fall from the state of grace i.e. lose ones salvation, since it is our free will that chooses Christ at conversion. Proponents: Jacob Arminius, John Wesley some Methodists
This was taken originally from http://www.exegiaaudio.org/exegiacalvinsimweb.mht, but the link no longer works.

Also, since non-Calvinists can vote, I did not post this in the Semper Reformanda forum.

The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) would generally agree with total depravity, and unconditional election. After that...no so much.

Personally, I could live with moderate to high Calvinism, I like Lutheranism more
 
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Silverback

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Most reformed protestant traditions do too. The exception is reformed Baptists I think..

Correct, Reformed, Lutheran, and Anglicans, as well as some of their offshoots like Methodist, and the covenant Church perform infant baptism as well.
 
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Silverback

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I'm not the one claiming God allowed non-heretics to translate KJV.

And I am staying out of this thread since there is toxicity (and not the song) here.

No toxicity in our city...In our ciiiiiiity
 
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sdowney717

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Rather than make salvation more uncertain (some claim Calvinism says you dont know if your elect and saved because its arbitrary or a lucky break), it affirms you are chosen by God which is why you even believe and can not be lost.

2 thessalonians 2
13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our [h]epistle.

16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work.

Footnotes:
 
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fhansen

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Ok, I will give a little more explanation. We are being saved first by God's grace, otherwise it would be impossible for us to get united to him. Our main goal is theosis which is achieved by cooperation between both God and man.
And its amazing how different in some ways such distinctions as these make your faith.
 
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ChicanaRose

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Limited atonement, total depravity, unconditional election, irresistible grace, and preservation of the saints is all biblical.

And I believe the prodigal son experienced all of the above.

Once you experience them yourself, you find it difficult to deny these doctrines.
 
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