Could the fall of morals from the 1960s to now have been avoided?

Desk trauma · Aug 14, 2019

Speedwell said:
Make no mistake: the push for abortion laws is about the working class and no one else.

In pondering a post Roe world I have been considering if states that outlaw abortions would impose travel restrictions on pregnant women or verify that they are still pregnant upon their return and punish them accordingly.

hedrick · Aug 14, 2019

Desk trauma said:
In pondering a post Roe world I have been considering if states that outlaw abortions would impose travel restrictions on pregnant women or verify that they are still pregnant upon their return and punish them accordingly.

There's speculation that they could be prosecuted under the Georgia law.

Desk trauma · Aug 14, 2019

hedrick said:
There's speculation that they could be prosecuted under the Georgia law.

I can’t wait to see the race to the bottom among the red states.

RDKirk · Aug 15, 2019

Speedwell said:
Safe, medically supervised abortions have always been available to the rich and well-connected and always will be. I can remember back when I was in high school, well before Roe v. Wade, the working class girl who got in trouble had to leave school and have the baby, her chance at an education ended. The rich girl took a couple of weeks off school to visit previously unmentioned relatives in, say, Sweden and her life went on as before. Make no mistake: the push for abortion laws is about the working class and no one else.

Pretty much.

The change of so many things in the 60s was not that immorality didn't exist, only individual liberty in general--to be moral or to be immoral--expanded in the 60s to the working classes.

ruthiesea · Aug 15, 2019

timothyu said:
Didn't have to worry about the kids back then. They were off the streets and out of harm's way, working in factories and fields.

And being maimed and killed.

stevevw · Aug 16, 2019

VCR-2000 said:
It is because America was founded as an experiment based on the principles spawned more-or-less from the era of liberal enlightenment to begin with. So ironically, I wonder how that directly started this sort of decline that started in earnest around 60 years ago.

I think after the 2nd world war came peace and people began to feel liberated. The 60's was a time of sex, drugs and rock and roll they say. Woodstock, psychedelic drugs, pop art, and sexual freedom which brought women's liberation. This was definitely a time of big change and this set western society on the path that has led us to what we see today. I think technology has also played a big part and this increased especially after the war and with Americas space race. Technology has increased 10 fold in the last 20 years and this has brought big changes as well with the world wide web. People are becoming extensions of technology and this is having an effect. During this time this is when mental illness has become the most prevalent.

KCfromNC · Aug 16, 2019

stevevw said:
During this time this is when mental illness has become the most prevalent.

Or maybe just better diagnosed.

stevevw · Aug 16, 2019

quatona said:
I wonder if there ever was a time when people didn´t think morals were declining.
Btw. there is a difference between "declining morals" and "declining moral behavior" (in your country) - which was the keyterm of the survey.

I think people will think that morals are declining to some extent as they look to the next generation with "in my day kids were better behaved". But I think there is more selfishness and narcissism especially among young people. I think technology and social media has played a big part. There seems to be a higher level of depravity, disobedience and disrespect than ever before. What was considered bad and shocking in past generations is an everyday occurrence today and to a point where I don't think we can get much worse apart from extending some of the ideas we are already contemplating like playing god with genetics and assisted suicide and designer babies etc.

I think technology has rapidly increased and though it has brought many great advances that have saved lives and made life better it also put us in a big ethical dilemma about how to use that technology. There is a mismatch in that in a time where we have supposedly made life happier people have become even more depressed and are taking their lives. So the greater the advances the greater the burden of responsibility and I think this is where we are failing the most with the choices we are making and the beliefs about our own capacity and the expectations that have been pushed onto people especially the young. This is causing people to breakdown as we are seeing with rage and despair.

stevevw · Aug 16, 2019

KCfromNC said:
Or maybe just better diagnosed.

No suicide is at an all time high with a person ending their lives every 40 seconds. Many are deeply depressed in a time when we are supposedly in the best position to have a better life with all the comforts, health benefits and opportunities. Better access to food is creating overweight and sick people with epidemics of heart disease and diabetes. More access to things that are suppose to make us happy have brought depression and anxiety. What has been promoted as the way to freedom and happiness is actually binding people and making them unhappy. People are beginning to break down like they are short circuiting. With that people go off the rails and act out and get enraged.

But there are several things happening at the same time that are culminating and making things worse. The environment is a big issue of concern, economics is not providing people with what they need in a so called wealthy nations. We may be seeing the effects on 100 years of industrial development where people may be affected by pollutants such as plastics which are causing physical and mental health issues. It is not just one thing but a number and this is no having an accumulative effect. This may also affect peoples behavior and ability to think properly where they become anti-social and mistreat others.

quatona · Aug 16, 2019

stevevw said:
I think people will think that morals are declining to some extent as they look to the next generation with "in my day kids were better behaved". But I think there is more selfishness and narcissism especially among young people.

Mountainmanbob · Aug 16, 2019

VCR-2000 said:
Do you think the relative freefall of morality that started around the 1960s could have been avoided? How in what kind of way?

I also don't believe we should go back to before the 1960s in all ways, but I believe the traditionalists and conservatives have a point sometimes.

Yes, if more people would have turned to God.

Not to forget --
appears to be the devil's playground down here --
he is having his way with many.

M-Bob

durangodawood · Aug 16, 2019

comana said:
What specifically do you mean by free fall of morality?

Good question.

On average, there's been an improvement in morality since the 60's.

durangodawood · Aug 16, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
One of my favorite things is looking at ancient people deriding the "loose morals" of the time, or talking about how the youth of "today" are so bad but "back in my day". These kinds of statements can be found going back literally thousands of years.

"The indecent foreign dance called the Waltz was introduced ... at the English Court on Friday last ... It is quite sufficient to cast one's eyes on the voluptuous intertwining of the limbs, and close compressure of the bodies ... to see that it is far indeed removed from the modest reserve which has hitherto been considered distinctive of English females...[Now that it is] forced on the respectable classes of society by the evil example of their superiors, we feel it a duty to warn every parent against exposing his daughter to so fatal a contagion." - The London Times, 1816

"...I find by sad Experience how the Towns and Streets are filled with lewd wicked Children, and many Children as they have played about the Streets have been heard to curse and swear and call one another Nick-names, and it would grieve ones Heart to hear what bawdy and filthy Communications proceeds from the Mouths of such..." - Robert Russel, 1695

"The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no respect for their parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they alone know everything and what passes for wisdom in us foolishness in them. As for the girls, they are foolish and immodest and unwomanly in speech, behavior, and dress." - Peter the Hermit, 11th century

"Our young men have grown slothful. There is not a single honorable occupation for which they will toil night and day. They sing and dance and grow effeminate and curl their hair and learn womanish tricks of speech; they are as languid as women and deck themselves out with unbecoming ornaments. Without strength, without energy, they add nothing during life to the gifts with which they were born — then they complain of their lot." - Seneca, 1st century

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words. When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly disrespectful and impatient of restraint." - Hesiod, 8th century BC

"Our Earth is degenerate in these later days; there are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end; bribery and corruption are common; children no longer obey their parents; every man wants to write a book and the end of the world is evidently approaching." - Assyrian clay tablet, ~2800 BC

-CryptoLutheran

Golden age fallacy. Such a perennial error.

otoh, I do think that morals decline from time to time. But we need a lot of detachment and perspective to overcome our natural tendency to indulge in the fallacy.

quatona · Aug 16, 2019

stevevw said:
I think technology has rapidly increased and though it has brought many great advances that have saved lives and made life better it also put us in a big ethical dilemma about how to use that technology. There is a mismatch in that in a time where we have supposedly made life happier people have become even more depressed and are taking their lives. So the greater the advances the greater the burden of responsibility and I think this is where we are failing the most with the choices we are making and the beliefs about our own capacity and the expectations that have been pushed onto people especially the young. This is causing people to breakdown as we are seeing with rage and despair.

So what we can conclude from all this is: The world - in general, and from the perspective of the human being in the Western Countries - has become extremely more complex, and consequently harder to deal with. People have to put way more effort into the consideration of all factors involved when it comes to making decisions and behaving in accordance with them. That´s not a "decline in morality". That´s an "increase in the amount and gravity of challenges".

VCR-2000 · Aug 16, 2019

stevevw said:
I think after the 2nd world war came peace and people began to feel liberated. The 60's was a time of sex, drugs and rock and roll they say. Woodstock, psychedelic drugs, pop art, and sexual freedom which brought women's liberation. This was definitely a time of big change and this set western society on the path that has led us to what we see today. I think technology has also played a big part and this increased especially after the war and with Americas space race. Technology has increased 10 fold in the last 20 years and this has brought big changes as well with the world wide web. People are becoming extensions of technology and this is having an effect. During this time this is when mental illness has become the most prevalent.

Honestly, as a 25-34 person I am afraid of everything changing more in the future and sometimes I think I don't want to be here to have a part of it anymore by 20 years. In fact, I sometimes think that living in a world near-identical to this current one in a past time or couple would be my "own" version of Heaven.

VCR-2000 · Aug 16, 2019

stevevw said:
No suicide is at an all time high with a person ending their lives every 40 seconds. Many are deeply depressed in a time when we are supposedly in the best position to have a better life with all the comforts, health benefits and opportunities. Better access to food is creating overweight and sick people with epidemics of heart disease and diabetes. More access to things that are suppose to make us happy have brought depression and anxiety. What has been promoted as the way to freedom and happiness is actually binding people and making them unhappy. People are beginning to break down like they are short circuiting. With that people go off the rails and act out and get enraged.

But there are several things happening at the same time that are culminating and making things worse. The environment is a big issue of concern, economics is not providing people with what they need in a so called wealthy nations. We may be seeing the effects on 100 years of industrial development where people may be affected by pollutants such as plastics which are causing physical and mental health issues. It is not just one thing but a number and this is no having an accumulative effect. This may also affect peoples behavior and ability to think properly where they become anti-social and mistreat others.

Yeah. Even in a more material sense we see decline. 60 years ago in the wealthy countries just one person can receive an income and still afford a family life and a relatively successful lifestyle. The cost of everything has risen to an awful point and both private and state bodies are struggling in debt. We no longer live in wealth and success, what was once actual not so long ago has become a shadow living under the surface of some deceitful plot in today's day and age.

stevevw · Aug 18, 2019

quatona said:
So what we can conclude from all this is: The world - in general, and from the perspective of the human being in the Western Countries - has become extremely more complex, and consequently harder to deal with. People have to put way more effort into the consideration of all factors involved when it comes to making decisions and behaving in accordance with them. That´s not a "decline in morality". That´s an "increase in the amount and gravity of challenges".

Living in the modern world which is harder to deal with has consequences. Many people cannot deal and cope with the increased stress. As mentioned in an earlier post it has been scientifically determined that psychological and mental health issues affect peoples behavior, their ability to make good decisions, become anti-social, commit crime, have relationship issues and lack empathy. This makes them more unlikely to act morally than those without these issues.

stevevw · Aug 18, 2019

VCR-2000 said:
Yeah. Even in a more material sense we see decline. 60 years ago in the wealthy countries just one person can receive an income and still afford a family life and a relatively successful lifestyle. The cost of everything has risen to an awful point and both private and state bodies are struggling in debt. We no longer live in wealth and success, what was once actual not so long ago has become a shadow living under the surface of some deceitful plot in today's day and age.

I think the break down in the family unit has led to a break down in communities and society. Government policies have acted against supporting the family unit. Secular worldviews undermine traditional families. When we put money and material wealth above people this will inevitably lead to unethical behavior and problems that break down society.

stevevw · Aug 18, 2019

VCR-2000 said:
Honestly, as a 25-34 person I am afraid of everything changing more in the future and sometimes I think I don't want to be here to have a part of it anymore by 20 years. In fact, I sometimes think that living in a world near-identical to this current one in a past time or couple would be my "own" version of Heaven.

Yeah I want to find my own piece of paradise on a bit of land with some cows and chickens and grow my own veggies. I think more people are thinking that way.

jayem · Aug 18, 2019

stevevw said:
suicide is at an all time high

Strictly speaking, that's not true. Suicide rates have been rising since 1999, and are the highest since the 1940s. (Accounting for 14 per 100,000 deaths in 2017.) But the the highest rates ever were during the Great Depression in the 1930s. (Peaking at 21.9 per 100,000 deaths in 1932.) This is assuming these stats are accurate. Regarding suicide especially, there is likely a margin of error.

https://time.com/5609124/us-suicide-rate/

You're correct that social media, and the stress of life in general are involved. But the opioid crisis is also a major factor. And it's difficult, if not impossible, to determine if overdose deaths are intentional or accidental. (Though it's not unreasonable to say that using such drugs illegally is knowingly risking one's life.)

Could the fall of morals from the 1960s to now have been avoided?

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