Change is Coming

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 14, 2019

mkgal1 said: ↑
Do you not believe Jesus IS God?

keras said: ↑
How can Jesus hand the Kingdom to Himself?

With God and Jesus, anything is possible

Theological Objections | Jewish Voice Ministries International

“Jews don’t believe in the Trinity. We believe in one God, not three.”
Answer: “Just as Messianic Jews probably misunderstand some of the things you believe, I think you misunderstand some of the things I believe. We do not in any way believe in three gods.
My God is one, and his name is the LORD (or, Yahweh, known to Orthodox Jews as HaShem). He revealed himself to us through his Son, the Messiah, who is the very image and reflection of God. And he touches us and speaks to us by his Spirit. These are deep, spiritual truths. Later theologians labeled this relationship the Trinity God as a triune One. But the word ‘Trinity’ is not found anywhere in the New Testament and it may confuse the issues for you.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, pp. 3-14.)

“If you claim that Jesus is God then you are guilty of making God into a man. You are an idol worshiper!”
Answer: “We believe that the eternally preexistent Son of God, through whom the universe was made, came forth from God his Father and was clothed with human flesh, making himself known to us as Yeshua the Messiah. He lived on this earth, died, rose from the dead, and returned to his Father. He now sits enthroned in heaven next to God. We understand that Jesus, the Son of God, is the very image of God, the one in whom God caused his fullness to dwell, the one through whom he revealed himself completely to mankind. Since the Son came forth from the Father and shares his divine nature, in one sense it is quite correct to say that Jesus is God (or, divine, or deity), always bearing in mind that the overwhelming testimony of the New Testament writings is that Jesus is the Son of God. I can show you from the Hebrew Scriptures that there is absolutely nothing idolatrous about what I believe. God has always revealed himself to his people. He did it most permanently and most fully through Jesus his Son.” (See Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, vol. 2, pp. 14-37.)
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mkgal1 · Aug 15, 2019

keras said:
Luke 13:32 has nothing to do with the 3 days Jesus was in the grave, that was the sign of Jonah.
It is a very peculiar interpretation to think so, can you provide any support for it?

What I'd posted was this:

mkgal said:
This passage is NOT about His return. It's about His resurrection.

....but you interpret Luke 13:32 to be about His coming return (completely dismissing the importance of His Resurrection):

keras said:
From Luke 13:32 and Hosea 6:2, I get the fact that there will be 2000 years between His 2 Advents. Proved by there having past nearly 2000 years.

Quoting from linked article:
LUKE 13:31-33. THE THIRD DAY
31 On that same day, some Pharisees came, saying to him, “Get out (Greek: poreuou) of here, and go away, for Herod wants to kill you.” 32 He said to them, “Go (Greek: poreuthentes) and tell that fox, ‘Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I complete my mission (Greek: teleioumai). 33 Nevertheless I must (Greek: dei—it is necessary—implies God’s will) go on my way (Greek: poreuesthai) today and tomorrow and the next day, for it can’t be that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem.'”

“and the third day” (v. 32b). Luke frequently uses this phrase, “on the third day,” to refer to Jesus’ resurrection (9:22; 18:33; 24:7, 2:46; Acts 10:40), and surely anticipates that the reader will hear resurrection overtones in this verse.

“I complete my mission” (teleioumai – from teleioo) (v. 32b). This phrase can be translated variously—”I will be finished”—”I shall reach my goal”—”I will be brought to an end.” This is the word that Jesus will use on the cross when he says “It is finished” (John 19:30). This combination of “the third day” and teleioumai clearly points toward the cross. ~ https://www.sermonwriter.com/biblical-commentary/luke-1331-35/

With your conversion formula of "a day = a thousand years" - this would have Jesus in the grave for 3,000 years (thus, He would STILL be in the grave). The point of this passage in Luke - as I see it - is about how God's plan of salvation will NOT be deterred by evil men (specifically Herod - at that time). It has NOTHING to do with providing us with a prophetic conversion of time. Three days = 3 days here (but the message is to point us to the Cross - and the power of His resurrection).

Luke 9:22 ~ "The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and scribes, be killed, and be raised the third day."

Luke 18:33 ~ "They will flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

Luke 24:7 ~ ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ”

Acts 10:37-40 ~ You know the events that took place throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John preached:
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and curing all who were under the tyranny of the Devil, because God was with Him. We ourselves are witnesses of everything He did in both the Judean country and in Jerusalem; yet they killed Him by hanging Him on a tree. God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.

keras · Aug 15, 2019

mkgal1 said:
nd the third day” (v. 32b). Luke frequently uses this phrase, “on the third day,” to refer to Jesus’ resurrection (9:22; 18:33; 24:7, 2:46; Acts 10:40), and surely anticipates that the reader will hear resurrection overtones in this verse.

How can Luke 13:32 possibly refer to Jesus; death and Resurrection?
He said: Today and tomorrow, I shall be working cures and casting out demons…..
He did not do that when He was dead! Then He completes His mission, or as my REB has it: comes into His reward. Was His Resurrection really the completion of His mission? I don't think so and His reward is to reign over the world for 1000 years. Psalms 110:1-2

You; mkgal1 are pushing a false doctrine and my advice to you is to cease making yourself look silly.

mkgal1 · Aug 16, 2019

keras said:
How can Luke 13:32 possibly refer to Jesus; death and Resurrection?
He said: Today and tomorrow, I shall be working cures and casting out demons…..
He did not do that when He was dead! Then He completes His mission, or as my REB has it: comes into His reward.

You; mkgal1 are pushing a false doctrine and my advice to you is to cease making yourself look silly.

I never suggested He was working cures and casting out demons when He was dead (although it can be said that He did just that when He was in the grave during those 3 days).

The typical explanation for this use of "today and tomorrow" is to mean - in proverbial terms - a fixed, short duration, and determined time. I believe also Jesus was implying that neither Herod nor any of the other human and spiritual forces opposing Him would be able to deter or prevent Him from completing that work.

These are two separate terms "today and tomorrow" is one phrase....."on the third day" is another. It's not to mean a literal succession of days (which you seem to agree with - considering that you interpret this to mean thousands of YEARS).

Quoting from Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges: [to day and to morrow] It is probable that these expressions are general (as in Hosea 6:2). They mean ‘I shall stay in Herod’s dominions with perfect security for a brief while longer till my work is done.’ It must be remembered that Peraea was in the tetrarchate of Herod, so that this incident may have occurred during the slow and solemn progress towards Jerusalem.

[the third day I shall be perfected] The word teleioumai has been variously rendered and explained. Bleek makes it mean ‘I shall end’ (my work in Galilee); Godet, ‘I am being perfected,’ in the sense of ‘I shall arrive at the destined end of my work;’ Resch, ‘] complete my work’ by one crowning miracle (John 11:40-44). This solemn meaning best accords with other usages of the word, e.g. in the cry from the Cross tetelestai, ‘It is finished’ (John 19:30). See too Hebrews 5:9; Hebrews 11:40. Teleiosis became an ecclesiastical term for ‘martyrdom.’

Luke 13:32 Lexicon: And He said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.' <------Lexicon for Luke 13:32

keras said:
Was His Resurrection really the completion of His mission? I don't think so and His reward is to reign over the world for 1000 years. Psalms 110:1-2

Yes - I believe His resurrection was the fullness of His mission at His first advent. He said, Himself, on the cross "It is finished".

This world is rightly His (as He is the creator and Lord over all - whether it's acknowledged by all or not) - so that's hardly "His reward".

John 11 - (quoting from linked article) where Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, was His seventh sign. He asks Martha to imagine that future is suddenly and dramatically brought backwards into the present. The future of God has burst into the present in Christ. The new creation, and with it the resurrection, has broken in to the middle of the old story, transforming it into a whole new story. God is moving against death in and through Jesus. So Jesus says,

John 11:25-26 ~ ″You don’t have to wait for the End. I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even though he or she dies, will live. And everyone who lives believing in me does not ultimately die at all. ~ Lent 5A: John 11:1-45 - Jesus Raises Lazarus from the Dead

Psalm 110:1-2 had been fulfilled when Jesus said this:

Matthew 28:18 ~ Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

mkgal1 · Aug 16, 2019

Quoting N.T. Wright about the significance of the Resurrection:
N.T. Wright: Let me put it like this. For many, many Christians, and I’ve heard these sermons down the years, the significance of the resurrection appears to be that there really is a life after death and that if you believe in Jesus you can go there too. Now that is simply not what the Easter narratives are about.

You’ve put it like this. In the New Testament outside the Gospels and the beginning of Acts, again and again, the fact of Jesus’ resurrection is closely linked to our own ultimate resurrection, which isn’t life after death – it’s life after life after death. Whatever life after death is, being with Christ which is far better, being in Paradise like the thief, etc, the many rooms where we go immediately… that is the temporary place. The ultimate life after life after death is the resurrection in God’s new world.

But then, in the Gospels you don’t get that yet. In Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and the beginning of Acts, nobody is saying, “Jesus is raised from the dead! Therefore there is a life after death. Therefore we’re going there.” They say, “Jesus is raised from the dead… Therefore, he really is the Messiah… Therefore, he really is the Lord of the world… Therefore God’s new creation has begun… And therefore, we have a job to do!” It’s what John 20-21 are all about. It’s what Luke 24 is all about. It’s this astonishment. The stuff has happened! And that means, we’ve got to take this message out and make it happen out in the world.

It’s about new creation, in other words. It’s about Jesus’ bodily resurrection as the beginning of the recreation of the cosmos. That is so stunning! ~ Wright on the Resurrection

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 16, 2019

keras said:
Friends, we should all be aware of soon to happen, dramatic changes coming to this world. Many things simply cannot continue as they are for much longer. The Bible prophets tell us, in great detail of many things that will take place, leading up to the glorious Return of our Lord Jesus for His Millennial reign.

Many dramatic changes occurred for the Jews in 70ad...........there is no such thing as a future millennial physical bodily reign of Jesus.....that is just plain fantasy and a false futurist belief that has caused many Christians to stumble in the Word.........please desist with that!
That aside, please visit my spirit led "parousia 70ad and "wailing wall" threads.......

Partial Preterist Only - A parousia and judgement on 70ad Jerusalem Revelation 18-19

The "Wailing Wall" and "..not stone upon stone left.." Matt, Mark and Luke

LittleLambofJesus said:
"stones cry out"...gives new meaning to the "wailing wall".......

Habakkuk 2:11
For the stones will cry out from the wall, and the rafters will echo it from the woodwork.

Luke 3:8
“Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.'
For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones.

LittleLambofJesus said:
Luke 19:
39And certain of the Pharisees from the multitude said unto him, ‘Teacher, rebuke Thy disciples;’ 40and he answering said to them, ‘I say to you, that, if these shall be silent, the stones will cry out!’

Then come the 70ad Discourse......when the walls did indeed come tumbling down:

41And when he came nigh, having seen the city, he wept over it, 42saying — ‘If thou didst know, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things for thy peace; but now they were hid from thine eyes. 43‘Because days shall come upon thee, and thine enemies shall cast around thee a rampart, and compass thee round, and press thee on every side, 44and lay thee low, and thy children within thee, and they shall not leave in thee a stone upon a stone, because thou didst not know the time of thy inspection.’

45And having entered into the temple, he began to cast forth those selling in it, and those buying, 46saying to them, ‘It hath been written, My house is a house of prayer — but ye made it a den of robbers.’ 47And he was teaching daily in the temple, but the chief priests and the scribes were seeking to destroy him — also the chiefs of the people — 48and they were not finding what they shall do, for all the people were hanging on him, hearing him.

...............................

mkgal1 · Aug 16, 2019

More from N.T. Wright (he focused a lot of his study on the Resurrection - so he has plenty to say/write about it) - including his book, The Day the Revolution Began:

From article linked:

Tom, you describe Jesus' death as the beginning of a "revolution." What was that revolution and why does it still matter today?

Most Western Christians have been taught that Jesus died so that they could escape the results of sin and go to heaven after they die. The New Testament, however, regularly speaks of Jesus’ death as the defeat of the powers of evil that have kept the world in captivity, with the implication that the world is actually going to change as a result—through the life and work and witness of those who believe this good news. Think of Revelation 5:9–10. Humans are rescued from their sin so that they can be “a kingdom and priests serving our God, and they will reign on earth.” That began at Easter and, in the power of the Spirit, has continued ever since. Of course, the “reign” of Jesus’ people, like that of Jesus himself, is the reign of suffering love . . . but that’s a whole other story. Suffice it to say that the vocation of God’s people today is to continue to implement that revolution. ~ N. T. Wright: The Church Continues the Revolution Jesus Started

keras · Aug 16, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I never suggested He was working cures and casting out demons when He was dead.

You more than suggested it, you said that the 3 days mentioned in Luke 13:32 referred to the time He was in the grave.
To make the two verses of Luke 13:32-33 to mean the same event, is wrong, as He started verse 33 with; Nevertheless, or However, KJV and REB. Meaning 'In spite of that'. or 'beside that'.
So those two verses are two distinct and separate prophesies.

The interpretation of Luke 13:32 as a prophecy about the 2000 year interval between Jesus 2 Advents, followed by His Millennium reign, is a valid one. Supported by Hosea 6:2. And the preterist's idea of the past fulfilment of His thousand year reign, is a flat rejection of Revelation 20:2,3,5 and 6. Not wise at all.

mkgal1 said:
Psalm 110:1-2 had been fulfilled when Jesus said this:

Matthew 28:18 ~ Then Jesus approached them and told them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."

But He hasn't taken it up yet. You are quite divorced from reality if you think He has.
Soon He will come in His fiery wrath. Isaiah 66:15-17 Are you ready for it?
Then, after at least 10 years; Jesus will Return in glory and commence His reign over the final 1000 years of God's decreed 7000 years for mankind.

mkgal1 · Aug 16, 2019

keras said:
You more than suggested it, you said that the 3 days mentioned in Luke 13:32 referred to the time He was in the grave.
To make the two verses of Luke 13:32-33 to mean the same event, is wrong, as He started verse 33 with; Nevertheless, or However, KJV and REB. Meaning 'In spite of that'. or 'beside that'.
So those two verses are two distinct and separate prophesies.

The interpretation of Luke 13:32 as a prophecy about the 2000 year interval between Jesus 2 Advents, followed by His Millennium reign, is a valid one. Supported by Hosea 6:2. And the preterist's idea of the past fulfilment of His thousand year reign, is a flat rejection of Revelation 20:2,3,5 and 6. Not wise at all.

But He hasn't taken it up yet. You are quite divorced from reality if you think He has.
Soon He will come in His fiery wrath. Isaiah 66:15-17 Are you ready for it?
Then, after at least 10 years; Jesus will Return in glory and commence His reign over the final 1000 years of God's decreed 7000 years for mankind.

Okay, Keras. You're free to maintain your *opinion*.

St. Helens · Aug 16, 2019

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Change is Coming

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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mkgal1

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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St. Helens

I stand with Israel

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