Who is responsible for our sanctification?

sdowney717 · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
No, grace is the gift.

Maybe you think more highly of yourself than you should, because faith and grace are both gifts.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Oldmantook · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
To make an argument from silence (Latin: argumentum ex silentio) is to express a conclusion that is based on the absence of statements in historical documents, rather than their presence.

That’s what you’ve done by saying that Galatians 1:6 says that they lost their salvation.

You claimed that it does not say that they lost their salvation. That in itself is an argument of silence. Just because the words "lost salvation" does not appear in the text, it does not mean that it is not true. Just because the word "abortion" is not in the scriptures does not mean it is okay. Comprende? I ask you AGAIN, if a genuine believer turns away to follow another gospel, for example Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, etc. is he still saved? YES or NO?

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
Then you have the wrong impression of what a gentleman is. God is a warrior when a warrior is called for, but in his relationships with believers, he is a gentle lover.

That’s creepy.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Oldmantook said:
You claimed that it does not say that they lost their salvation. That in itself is an argument of silence. Just because the words "lost salvation" does not appear in the text, it does not mean that it is not true. Just because the word "abortion" is not in the scriptures does not mean it is okay. Comprende? I ask you AGAIN, if a genuine believer turns away to follow another gospel, for example Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, etc. is he still saved? YES or NO?

I think you are not actually comprehending what an argument from silence is. You made the conclusion that they lost their salvation, even though it doesn’t say that. There is an absence of statement.

As to your question, it’s an impossibility.

sdowney717 · Aug 15, 2019

Oldmantook said:
You claimed that it does not say that they lost their salvation. That in itself is an argument of silence. Just because the words "lost salvation" does not appear in the text, it does not mean that it is not true. Just because the word "abortion" is not in the scriptures does not mean it is okay. Comprende? I ask you AGAIN, if a genuine believer turns away to follow another gospel, for example Buddhism, Hinduism, Gnosticism, etc. is he still saved? YES or NO?

Jesus says why that cant happen, one of His sheep following another.
John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Lots of people still dont understand Jesus's words.
You must unlearn what you have learned.
His sheep flee from and they dont hear strange voices, meaning they wont follow a stranger, they will give them no heed.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Maybe you think more highly of yourself than you should, because faith and grace are both gifts.

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Luke 8:12
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Wait, if faith is a gift, how can the devil stop it from being given?

Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)?

Why are there so many Christian in Europe and America, and so few in North Africa and the Middle East?
Does God not give faith to people of other races as often?

On numerous occasions the Bible shows that people are capable of exercising faith in Christ. For example God heard the prayers of Cornelius, a Gentile unbeliever, and He sent Peter to Cornelius with the message of salvation in Christ (Acts 10:30–32). ―Did God actually talk to an unregenerate person? Yes! Did the unsaved person understand what God said? Absolutely! In fact, God also indicates that He had been hearing the prayers and appreciating the almsgiving of Cornelius, an unbeliever!
Nowhere in Acts is there any hint that God endowed Cornelius with faith in order for him to respond to the gospel.

Faith comes first, then salvation. Regeneration does not proceed faith.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
That’s creepy.

God is creepy when he calls the church his bride or when he claims that his people following other god was adultery?
2 Corinthians 11:2 - For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Isaiah 62:5 - For [as] a young man marrieth a virgin, [so] shall thy sons marry thee: and [as] the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, [so] shall thy God rejoice over thee.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
God is creepy when he calls the church his bride or when he claims that his people following other god was adultery?
2 Corinthians 11:2 - For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present [you as] a chaste virgin to Christ.

Isaiah 62:5 - For [as] a young man marrieth a virgin, [so] shall thy sons marry thee: and [as] the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, [so] shall thy God rejoice over thee.

If you think He’s your gentle lover, okay.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
If you think He’s your gentle lover, okay.

You don't believe God is love? Why do I even ask? Your whole theology is based on God being mostly about his anger.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
What does the text say that the Holy Spirit was doing?

Acts of the Apostles 10
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

It fell upon the listeners of Peter's message. How is that relevant to our discussion?

sdowney717 · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
Luke 8:12
12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

Wait, if faith is a gift, how can the devil stop it from being given?

Why was Jesus sometimes amazed at people’s lack of faith (Matt 8:26; 14:31; 16:8)?

Why are there so many Christian in Europe and America, and so few in North Africa and the Middle East?
Does God not give faith to people of other races as often?

On numerous occasions the Bible shows that people are capable of exercising faith in Christ. For example God heard the prayers of Cornelius, a Gentile unbeliever, and He sent Peter to Cornelius with the message of salvation in Christ (Acts 10:30–32). ―Did God actually talk to an unregenerate person? Yes! Did the unsaved person understand what God said? Absolutely! In fact, God also indicates that He had been hearing the prayers and appreciating the almsgiving of Cornelius, an unbeliever!
Nowhere in Acts is there any hint that God endowed Cornelius with faith in order for him to respond to the gospel.

Faith comes first, then salvation. Regeneration does not proceed faith.

Regeneration is not complete until the person receives the Lord Jesus as God come in the flesh to save him.
It comes first though being born again for unless a man is born again He can not perceive the kingdom of Heaven, if he cant do that he certainly wont believe Christ is God.

The only one who bore the good fruit, was the ones where the seed fell on good soil. that would be the regenerated heart.
YES, the others Satan blinds the minds lest they believe. v6 though shows why someone believes, God has shown in their (regenerated) hearts His light.

2 Cor 4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
We are saved by grace.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
— Ephesians 2:4-5

God's Grace received through our loyalty. As opposed to Old Covenant members, who have a Salvation by Wages through Works Covenant. Israel asked for a set of rules to be followed, in order to be kept safe from God's wrath. She got it.

In performing works, both the lesser as well as the weightier points of the Law, which point to Christ, Israel became a hired hand, a pre-publicist, oracle bearer, for God. But Israel fell under a curse. Since she put herself under the Covenant of Compensation, she could only be saved by it. Similarly, the Galatians who put themselves under the Covenant of Compensation, could only be saved by it. And no Covenant of Compensation can save, because whoever undertakes the work must do all the works. Naturally, no one fulfills the requirement. So how did Israel survive? Because, whilst nations like Sodom and Gomorrah and Edom disappeared, Israel always prevailed.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
You don't believe God is love? Why do I even ask? Your whole theology is based on God being mostly about his anger.

God is love. But He’s not my gentle lover. That’s creepy.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Acts of the Apostles 10
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

It fell upon the listeners of Peter's message. How is that relevant to our discussion?

I’m not even sure the relevance of bringing up Cornelius in the discussion on sanctification. So there’s that.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
God's Grace received through our loyalty.

Ugh. That’s just horrible.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
I’m not even sure the relevance of bringing up Cornelius in the discussion on sanctification. So there’s that.

God foreknew Cornelius. They weren't strangers before Peter was commanded to bring/draw him to Christ.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Ugh. That’s just horrible.

Creepy? Horrible? Getting a bit touchy feely, are we? Here's an article by a friend of me and Hendrick, from my Theologyweb forum days:

Theo Geek: 'Grace', a mistranslated word and misunderstood concept

By Andrew J. Wallace

Quote
Amongst Classics scholars there is no debate as to what this word means. Surviving documents from the ancient world contain hundreds of passages that give us great clarity about their understanding of charis and the role this word and its concepts played in their society. Charis was the key-word in what scholars call "the reciprocity system". This system operated according to time-delay exchanges where goods were given and then at a later time goods of relatively equal value were returned to the giver. These goods could be tangible (money, material goods) or intangible (public acclaim, authority). An obligation existed to repay favors owed, they were not 'free' in the sense we would understand it - it is just like when a bank gives you a loan the money is not 'free'. (It is due to this reciprocal nature of the transactions that scholars label it the Reciprocity System.) Essentially the system was an informal system of economics. The word charis itself is best translated with the English "favor" in the sense of talking about favors given and favors repaid. Greek makes no linguistic distinction between the first favor given and the second favor to repay it, calling each a charis. Greek also uses charis to refer to a positive attitude toward someone - we would speak in English of this as "regarding them favorably" or "having their favor".

Of course, a century or more ago, such information simply wasn't available. People interpreting charis in the Bible had to use what information they had and try to make some sense of it. Reformation Christianity is famous for seeing charis as being "free grace" and being the opposite of human effort. These concepts have heavily influenced many Christians' understandings of 'grace' today, but have nothing to do with the actual meaning of charis in Greek. The translation 'grace' is not a good one, it is not 'free', and it isn't the opposite of human effort.

These historical misinterpretations of 'grace' have led to correspondingly incorrect interpretations of passages that use charis. Romans 4, for example, contrasts the Reciprocity System to a Contractual system (a rather subtle contrast) which has historically been exegeted as the difference between human effort and reliance on 'grace'. Similarly Ephesians 2:8, due to the ambiguity in Greek about givers and receivers of favors clarifies that God is the giver of the favor and we the receiver, and yet this has historically been exegeted as speaking about lack of human effort.

Unfortunately, nothing endures and propagates quite like bad theology. At certain points in history, theologians have constructed theologies based on certain incorrect understandings of 'grace' and these theologies remain influential today and taught as biblical even when scholarship regarding the meaning of these words has long moved on. Mistaken ideas about charis continue to influence many Christians who are convinced that 'grace' means salvation is in no way by human effort.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
God foreknew Cornelius. They weren't strangers before Peter was commanded to bring/draw him to Christ.

Okay. So then he was predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. I have no problem with that.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Creepy? Horrible? Getting a bit touchy feely, are we? Here's an article by a friend of me and Hendrick, from my Theologyweb forum days:

Theo Geek: 'Grace', a mistranslated word and misunderstood concept

By Andrew J. Wallace

Quote
Amongst Classics scholars there is no debate as to what this word means. Surviving documents from the ancient world contain hundreds of passages that give us great clarity about their understanding of charis and the role this word and its concepts played in their society. Charis was the key-word in what scholars call "the reciprocity system". This system operated according to time-delay exchanges where goods were given and then at a later time goods of relatively equal value were returned to the giver. These goods could be tangible (money, material goods) or intangible (public acclaim, authority). An obligation existed to repay favors owed, they were not 'free' in the sense we would understand it - it is just like when a bank gives you a loan the money is not 'free'. (It is due to this reciprocal nature of the transactions that scholars label it the Reciprocity System.) Essentially the system was an informal system of economics. The word charis itself is best translated with the English "favor" in the sense of talking about favors given and favors repaid. Greek makes no linguistic distinction between the first favor given and the second favor to repay it, calling each a charis. Greek also uses charis to refer to a positive attitude toward someone - we would speak in English of this as "regarding them favorably" or "having their favor".

Of course, a century or more ago, such information simply wasn't available. People interpreting charis in the Bible had to use what information they had and try to make some sense of it. Reformation Christianity is famous for seeing charis as being "free grace" and being the opposite of human effort. These concepts have heavily influenced many Christians' understandings of 'grace' today, but have nothing to do with the actual meaning of charis in Greek. The translation 'grace' is not a good one, it is not 'free', and it isn't the opposite of human effort.

These historical misinterpretations of 'grace' have led to correspondingly incorrect interpretations of passages that use charis. Romans 4, for example, contrasts the Reciprocity System to a Contractual system (a rather subtle contrast) which has historically been exegeted as the difference between human effort and reliance on 'grace'. Similarly Ephesians 2:8, due to the ambiguity in Greek about givers and receivers of favors clarifies that God is the giver of the favor and we the receiver, and yet this has historically been exegeted as speaking about lack of human effort.

Unfortunately, nothing endures and propagates quite like bad theology. At certain points in history, theologians have constructed theologies based on certain incorrect understandings of 'grace' and these theologies remain influential today and taught as biblical even when scholarship regarding the meaning of these words has long moved on. Mistaken ideas about charis continue to influence many Christians who are convinced that 'grace' means salvation is in no way by human effort.

“Unfortunately, nothing endures and propagates quite like bad theology”

He got that part right. He should have been quiet.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
Okay. So then he was predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. I have no problem with that.

But God knew him because he was groping around looking for Him.

Who is responsible for our sanctification?

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