Unitarianism/Trinitarianism

Zachm531 said:

Yeah that no where says "God the Son" it isnt three different gods....
God the Father
God the Son
+God the Spirit
------------------
3 Gods


The Father
The Son
+The Holy Spirit
----------------
1 God-3 persons

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No, it's just a reflection of the above diagram.

It's about the New Birth which enables people to know the truth. If you believe lies to the point you become hardened in them, you are probably not saved.

Zachm531 said:

Curious as to what you guys think about this. If a person is a trinitarian and believes that Jesus IS God, when he is NOT. Would that person go to hell? and visa versa, if a unitarian believes that Jesus was the Son of God but NOT God himself, when he is. Would that person go to hell? Many times in the scriptures we see that anyone who believes on the name of Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life, but, it does not say we need to believe that he is or is not God, only that we must believe he is the Son of God. Thoughts?

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God determines our eternal destinies based on what we do with what we know, not on our ignorance. And none of us have perfect knowledge BTW.

Jonaitis said:

I answered that question already.

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He wants you to literally say saved or not saved...

Zachm31 - I personally don’t believe someone is saved if they deny the deity of Christ. You don’t know Christ if you don’t know that.

Zachm531 said:

Curious as to what you guys think about this. If a person is a trinitarian and believes that Jesus IS God, when he is NOT. Would that person go to hell? and visa versa, if a unitarian believes that Jesus was the Son of God but NOT God himself, when he is. Would that person go to hell? Many times in the scriptures we see that anyone who believes on the name of Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life, but, it does not say we need to believe that he is or is not God, only that we must believe he is the Son of God. Thoughts?

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I find, when people deny that Jesus is
1) God
2) The Son of God
3) Fully Human and Fully God

They're probably exploring gnostic thought areas when reading the bible.

Zachm531 said:

Curious as to what you guys think about this. If a person is a trinitarian and believes that Jesus IS God, when he is NOT. Would that person go to hell? and visa versa, if a unitarian believes that Jesus was the Son of God but NOT God himself, when he is. Would that person go to hell? Many times in the scriptures we see that anyone who believes on the name of Jesus shall not perish but have everlasting life, but, it does not say we need to believe that he is or is not God, only that we must believe he is the Son of God. Thoughts?

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This is probably the most difficult concept to understand. So the easiest way to look at it is, the Three are always One and the One is always Three.
Blessings

Speaking as a trinitarian, I'm not sure why some Christians add extra doctrinal requirements onto Christianity.

What complicates this issue is that while no one would dispute all major books of the NT view Jesus as a divine being, the term "God" (Greek: Theos) is generally reserved for God the Father only. I also think it is erroneous to read too much of the elaborate definition of the trinity established by the Nicene creed back on to each and every writer of the NT itself.

Michael Collum said:

I find, when people deny that Jesus is
1) God
2) The Son of God
3) Fully Human and Fully God

They're probably exploring gnostic thought areas when reading the bible.

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1. Gnostics never denied Jesus' divinity
2. Literally no one denied Jesus' sonship until Islam came about
3. Gnostics did deny this, but what exactly does it mean to be "fully human and fully God?"

Zachm531 said:

I agree. But my question is not which belief is the correct belief BUT, is the incorrect belief still saved?

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I think there has to be a lot of grace in respect to our understanding of the nature of God.

I certainly agree with the historical view of the Trinity as expressed in the Councils, but our ability to actually understand and grasp how God is Trinity is really beyond us. No analogy actually works, and a lot of what people have said in this thread is borderline heresy and itself displays a certain level of ignorance.

What's important is that we recognize that we are born with a sinful nature and that we need forgiveness of our sins. We need to recognize that our forgiveness comes to us solely and exclusively through the atoning work of Christ on the cross, who not only died, but literally rose. That is what's core.

None of us, nobody can say they fully grasp and understand the Trinity. None of us can say we fully understand and grasp how Christ lived with 2 natures, 1 nature being 100% man and the other nature being 100% Divine. We can't grasp that. We can believe it, but we can't really understand how that works.

The Trinity, while not contradictory, is beyond our ability to fully comprehend and understand. We need to be a little more humble before we declare that people are going to hell because they aren't fully educated on Church history and all that has been debated, discussed, and determined to be the orthodox view on God's nature.

other then GOD who gets to call "Would that person go to hell"...just a thought

Rubiks said:

1. Gnostics never denied Jesus' divinity
2. Literally no one denied Jesus' sonship until Islam came about
3. Gnostics did deny this, but what exactly does it mean to be "fully human and fully God?"

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1, Sure they did, protestant Gnostics thought Jesus was Michael the archangel .. and Jehovah Witnesses do to this day.
2, Islam is a continuation of the Gnostic tradition.
3, Jesus was born as a human and had a human mother, Jesus also could see the Father in Heaven and called Him His Father. Being both human and divine at the same time.

There is no question that Jesus is God. He clearly demonstrated that He was God by constantly doing things only God could do. The New Testament is full of evidence, for example:
Jesus claimed to be God - John 8:24; 8:56-59 (see Exodus 3:14); John 10:30-33
Jesus is called God - John 1:1,14; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8
Jesus is the image of the invisible God - Heb. 1:3
Jesus abides forever - Heb. 7:24
Jesus created all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:15-17
Jesus is before all things - John 1:1-3; Col. 1:17;
Jesus is eternal - John 1:1,14; 8:58; Micah 5:1-2
Jesus is honored the same as the Father - John 5:23
Jesus is prayed to - Acts 7:55-60; 1 Cor. 1:2 with Psalm 116:4; (John 14:14)
Jesus is worshipped - Matt. 2:2,11; 14:33; John 9:35-38; Heb. 1:6
Jesus is omnipresent - Matt. 18:20; 28:20
Jesus is with us always - Matt. 28:20
Jesus said, "I AM the Resurrection and the Life" - John 11:25
Jesus said, "I AM the First and the Last" - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13
Jesus always lives to make intercession for us - Heb. 7:25
Jesus cleanses from sin - 1 John 1:9
Jesus cleanses us from our sins by His blood - Rev. 1:5; Rom. 5:9
Jesus forgives sins - Matt. 9:1-7; Luke 5:20; 7:48
Jesus saves forever - Matt. 18:11; John 10:28; Heb. 7:25

Zachm531 said:

How do you reconcile this? Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

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How do you reconcile "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God"?

Zachm531 said:

How do you reconcile this? Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

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Reconcile it with what? Trinitarianism?

Zachm531 said:

How do you reconcile this? Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

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What's to reconcile? If you believe it, you believe it. If you don't believe it, the jigsaw puzzle of unbelief is usually wrong anyway.

Zachm531 said:

How do you reconcile this? Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

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This verse actually means that Jesus is preeminent not that he had a starting point. Christ is the firstborn over all creation in that He has authority over creation. John 1:1 clearly says that Jesus was in the beginning.

Zachm531 said:

Yeah that no where says "God the Son" it isnt three different gods....
God the Father
God the Son
+God the Spirit
------------------
3 Gods


The Father
The Son
+The Holy Spirit
----------------
1 God-3 persons

Click to expand...

That's just another way of phrasing it. Each of the persons of the Trinity is still God. The Father is not the Son, and the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father, but all of them are still God. Calling the Messiah "God" is not only accurate, it's biblical (John 1 describes the Messiah as the Word made flesh, which by the definition of who the Word is in that chapter makes the Messiah God.). They're also not three separate beings "united in purpose" (which is what Mormonism teaches).

I say "persons" because each person of the Trinity is not just an aspect of God that appears at specific junctures. Persons of the Trinity may appear together (Matthew 3:16-17 features both the Son and the Holy Spirit being present at the same time). The Father and the Son also converse at many points throughout the Gospels.

God is tripersonal. The closest way to explain it that I have found is in looking at a cube. The cube is made of squares, but it is still a single shape. (Please note that this analogy of a cube is not a perfect description, as we cannot properly understand a being who is composed in a multi-personal manner. Our own experiences of personhood lead us to assume that multiple persons must equal one being, but this is not so for God. It is a divine mystery.)

Zachm531 said:

How do you reconcile this? Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation"

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There's nothing to reconcile here. Colossians 1:16-17 states, "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." Here, the idea of Christ as the firstborn is tied to His position as God—He is firstborn, but He is not created and is held distinct from all created beings. He is not an image-bearer of God in the sense that humans are. He is image-bearer in the sense that He is God (creator and Lord of all things) in the Flesh.

Zachm531 said:

and he easily could have meant the beginning of time since eternity didnt have a beginning

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I doubt it. In John 17:5, Jesus states that He existed before the beginning of world (and thus, since before time).