The Court in Revelation 11:2

vinsight4u said:

Don't think of the temple mentioned in Rev. 11 as being the one from 70 AD. That temple was already measured long ago when it was built. That is the way God has holy things made. He shows the pattern-the sizes first.
.

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Sorry, i have to disagree.
This is the reason I feel it is the earthly 1st century Jerusalem in Revelation.
Not sure why it is so difficult for futurists to see that, and why many are now turning to the divine truth of orthodox preterism/idealism.

"BEHOLD! YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT TO YE DESOLATE/A WILDERNESS!"

Matthew 21 [Jeremiah 7:11]
12 And Jesus entered into the Temple of God, and did cast forth all those selling and buying in the temple, and the tables of the money-changers he overturned, and the seats of those selling the doves
13 and he saith to them, 'It hath been written, My House a house of prayer shall be called, but ye did make it a den of robbers.'
[Mark 11:17 Luke 1946]
Matthew 23:38
Behold! your House is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>

Mark 11:17
and he was teaching, saying to them, 'Hath it not been written -- My House a house of prayer shall be called for all the nations, and ye did make it a den of robbers?'
Luke 19:46
saying to them, 'It hath been written, My House is a house of prayer -- but ye made it a den of robbers.'

Revelation 6:15
and the kings of the land, and the great men, and the rich, and the chiefs of thousands, and the mighty, and every servant, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens, and in the rocks of the mountains,

Daniel 11:14 mentions violent robbers of the Jews.......
The South has generally been associated with the southern Kingdom of Judah, home of Jerusalem and land of Judea:

Daniel 11:14
“Now in those times many shall rise up against the king of the South.
Also, violent men/robbers of your people shall exalt themselves in fulfillment of the vision, but they shall fall.

Jeremiah 7:11
“Has this house, which is called by My name, become a den of robbers<6530> in your eyes? Behold, I, even I, have seen it,” says the LORD.
Ezekiel 7:22
I will turn My face from them,
And they will defile My secret place;
For robbers shall enter it and defile it.

I want to focus again on the word used in Revelation 11:2 for "casting out". Comments?..............


1544. ekballo from 1537 and 906;
to eject (literally or figuratively):--bring forth, cast (forth, out), drive (out), expel, leave, pluck (pull, take, thrust) out, put forth (out), send away (forth, out).

Revelation 11:2
and the court/fold, outside of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628)! out-side,
and thou mayest not be measuring her, that she was given to the nations, and the city/ the holy they shall be trampling forty and two months.

The exact same form of #1544 is also used in Galatians 4 concerning the casting out of Hagar and Ishmael,
which Paul is comparing her to 1st century Jerusalem:

Galatians 4:
24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[fn] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
30 But what? is saying the Scripture
'be Casting-Out/ekbale <1544> (5628) the maid-servant and the son of her,
for not no shall be tenanting/inheriting the son of the maid-servant with the son of the free-one.

The same greek word that is used in the casting out of the Adam from the garden in Genesis .

Genesis 3:24
And He is casting-Out the 'adam,

[LXX] Gene 3:24 kai ecebalen<G1544/H01644> ton Adam

H1644 garash a primitive root;
to drive out from a possession; especially to expatriate or divorce:--cast up (out), divorced (woman), drive away (forth, out), expel, X surely put away, trouble, thrust out.



.

Any other views on that "court" in Revelation 11?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Any other views on that "court" in Revelation 11?

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I don’t have anything to add about the court which is without the temple, but I do have an observation on the fact that it is not measured. I think whenever an unmeasurable object or group of people is in view it is always Gentile and never Jew or Israel. I haven’t done a complete study on this so please tell me if you know of a clear example where Gentiles are measured. The fact that Gentiles tread underfoot the holy city for 42 months certainly could be view as a type of measurement but I think it is the holy city that is being measured and not the Gentiles.

In Numbers 1 Israel is numbered from the age of 20 and upwards. I haven’t found this type census ever being done to Gentiles. I know there are many verses such as Esther 9:16 where the Jews slew 75,000 of their foes. These are measurements but certainly not a complete census or measurement of the Gentiles.

An example of how I have used this to help in my studying is in Judges 6:36-40 when Gideon puts the fleece on the floor and God put the dew only on the fleece, Gideon was able to wring it out and it was a bowl full of water. When the dew was only on the ground it was not measured in any way. I think the fleece represents Israel because fleece is cut off from a lamb, and the ground represents the Gentile nations. This would then represent the 2 periods of time, one when the word of God was in Israel only and one when it is preached in all the world while Israel is blind in part. What happens next in Judges 7 does have several similarities to passages in Revelations.

Again I’m not certain if this is completely true throughout the scriptures. So if you or anyone else knows of a clear example of Gentiles being measured please post the example.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Any other views on that "court" in Revelation 11?

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The temple is in reference to Jewish believers.
The court is in reference to gentile believers.

John is told to measure the temple in reference to the Jewish believers because they will not be going through the great tribulation. But will be kept safe for the last three and half years in the wilderness.

Then he is told not to measure the outer court referring to us gentile christians because we still have to go through that last three and half years (the great tribulation) wherein we will face great persecution until our "powers have been crushed".

Hence it says in verse 2,

But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. (NIV)

Meaning, because they'll trample on the holy city, they'll also trample on the outer court.

This is in line with Daniel 12:7,

The man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." (NIV)

grafted branch said:

I don’t have anything to add about the court which is without the temple, but I do have an observation on the fact that it is not measured. I think whenever an unmeasurable object or group of people is in view it is always Gentile and never Jew or Israel. I haven’t done a complete study on this so please tell me if you know of a clear example where Gentiles are measured. The fact that Gentiles tread underfoot the holy city for 42 months certainly could be view as a type of measurement but I think it is the holy city that is being measured and not the Gentiles.

In Numbers 1 Israel is numbered from the age of 20 and upwards. I haven’t found this type census ever being done to Gentiles. I know there are many verses such as Esther 9:16 where the Jews slew 75,000 of their foes. These are measurements but certainly not a complete census or measurement of the Gentiles.

An example of how I have used this to help in my studying is in Judges 6:36-40 when Gideon puts the fleece on the floor and God put the dew only on the fleece, Gideon was able to wring it out and it was a bowl full of water. When the dew was only on the ground it was not measured in any way. I think the fleece represents Israel because fleece is cut off from a lamb, and the ground represents the Gentile nations. This would then represent the 2 periods of time, one when the word of God was in Israel only and one when it is preached in all the world while Israel is blind in part. What happens next in Judges 7 does have several similarities to passages in Revelations.

Again I’m not certain if this is completely true throughout the scriptures. So if you or anyone else knows of a clear example of Gentiles being measured please post the example.

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Good post.

Note it is the "Sanctuary" being measured, which contained the Holy Place and Most Holy place, which was located inside the Temple. The Chief Priests always railed against Jesus and only they were allowed to enter the Most Holy Place once a year.

The Holy of Holies (Tiberian Hebrew: קֹדֶשׁ הַקֳּדָשִׁים Qṓḏeš HaQŏḏāšîm) is a term in the Hebrew Bible which refers to the inner sanctuary of the Tabernacle where God's presence appeared. The area was defined by four pillars which held up the veil of the covering, under which the Ark of the Covenant was held above the floor. The Ark according to Hebrew Scripture contained the Ten Commandments, which were given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai. King Solomon built the Temple in Jerusalem, where the Ark of the Covenant was supposed to be kept.

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The Holy of Holies was entered once a year by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement, to sprinkle the blood of sacrificial animals (a bull offered as atonement for the Priest and his household, and a goat offered as atonement for the people) and offer incense upon the Ark of the Covenant and the mercy seat which sat....

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I find it curious that the Greek word for Temple<2411> is never used once in Revelation, [even tho it is used in Matt 24 of the 70ad Olivet Discourse]

[Note the whole Court located inside the Temple is cast outside [not "left out" as most versions show]]:

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485>[Holy and Most Holy Place] of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar of incense] and those worshiping in it.
2 and the Court<833> outside of the Sanctuary, be thou casting-out! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring it, that it was given to the nations.
And the holy city they shall be trampling forty and two months

Matthew 26:3
Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the Court/fold/aulhn <833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas [Revelation 11:2]

The Court of the Priest's (Herod's Temple )

The innermost court was the Court of the Priests, which excluded all laymen. In the eastern part of this court, opposite the main gates leading from the other courts and the eastern entrance into the Temple area, so that it could be seen from a distance, stood the great altar of burnt offering.
In this latter court stood the altar of burnt offering, made of unwrought stone, 30 cubits (45 feet) in length and breadth, and 15 cubits (22 feet) high. West of this was the Temple, and between the Holy Place and the altar stood the laver of cleansing.

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Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

3485. naos from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.
Strong's Number G3485 ναός (naos), occurs 46 times in 40 verses

ναός, ναοῦ, ὁ (ναίω to dwell), the Sept. for הֵיכָל, used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of holies (in classical Greek used of the sanctuary or cell of a temple, where the image of the god was placed, called also δόμος, σηκός, which is to be distinguished from τό ἱερόν, the whole temple, the entire consecrated enclosure; this distinction is observed also in the Bible; see ἱερόν, p. 299{a}): Matthew 23:16f, 35 27:40; Mark 14:58; Mark 15:29; John 2:19; Revelation 11:2; nor need Matthew 27:5 be regarded as an exception, provided we suppose that Judas in his desperation entered the Holy place, which no one but the priests was allowed to enter ((note the εἰς (others, ἐν) of T Tr WH)). with Θεοῦ, τοῦ Θεοῦ, added: Matthew 26:61; 1 Corinthians 3:17; 2 Corinthians 6:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:4; Revelation 11:1; used specifically of the Holy place, where the priests officiated: Luke 1:9, 21f; of the Holy of holies (see καταπέτασμα), Matthew 27:51; Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45. in the visions of the Revelation used of the temple of the 'New Jerusalem': Revelation 3:12; Revelation 7:15; Revelation 11:19; Revelation 14:15, 17; Revelation 15:5f, 8; Revelation 16:1, 17; of any temple whatever prepared for the true God, Acts 7:48 Rec.; Acts 17:24. of miniature silver temples modeled after the temple of Diana (i. e. Artemis (which see)) of Ephesus, Acts 19:24. ὁ Θεός ναός αὐτῆς ἐστιν, takes the place of a temple in it, Revelation 21:22. metaphorically, of a company of Christians, a Christian church, as dwelt in by the Spirit of God: 1 Corinthians 3:16; 2 Corinthians 6:16; Ephesians 2:21; for the same reason, of the bodies of Christians, 1 Corinthians 6:19. of the body of Christ, ὁ ναός τοῦ σώματος αὐτοῦ (epexegetical genitive (Winer's Grammar, 531 (494))), John 2:21, and according to the Evangelist's interpretation in 19 also. ((From Homer on.))

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Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple<2411>.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
==========
2411. hieron neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

ἱερόν, ἱεροῦ, τό (neuter of the adjective ἱερός, ἱερά, ἱερόν; cf. τό ἅγιον) (from Herodotus on), a sacred place, temple: of the temple of Artemis at Ephesus, Acts 19:27; of the temple at Jerusalem twice in the Sept., Ezekiel 45:19; 1 Chronicles 29:4; more frequent in the O. T. Apocrypha; in the N. T. often in the Gospels and Acts; once elsewhere, viz. 1 Corinthians 9:13. τό ἱερόν and ὁ ναός differ, in that the former designates the whole compass of the sacred enclosure, embracing the entire aggregate of buildings, balconies, porticos, courts (viz., that of the men or Israelites, that of the women, that of the priests), belonging to the temple;

the latter designates the sacred edifice properly so called, consisting of two parts, the 'sanctuary' or 'Holy place' (which no one except the priests was allowed to enter), and the 'Holy of holies' or 'most holy place' (see ἅγιος, 1 a.) (which was entered only on the great day of atonement by the high priest alone); (cf. Trench, Synonyms, § iii.). ἱερόν is employed in the N. T. either explicitly of the whole temple, Matthew 12:6; Matthew 24:1; Mark 13:3; Luke 21:5; Luke 22:52; Acts 4:1; Acts 24:6; Acts 25:8; 1 Corinthians 9:13, etc.; or so that certain definite parts of it must be thought of, as the courts, especially where Jesus or the apostles are said to have gone up, or entered, 'into the temple,' to have taught or encountered adversaries, and the like, 'in the temple,' Matthew 21:12, 14; Matthew 26:55; Mark 14:49; Luke 19:47; Luke 21:37; Luke 22:53; Luke 24:53; John 5:14; John 7:14, 28; John 8:20; John 18:20; Acts 3:2; Acts 5:20; Acts 21:26, etc.; of the courts and sanctuary, Matthew 12:5; of the court of the Gentiles, out of which Jesus drove the buyers and sellers and money-changers, Matthew 21:12; Mark 11:15; Luke 19:45; John 2:14ff; of the court of the women, Luke 2:37; of any portico or apartment, Luke 2:46, cf. John 10:23. On the phrase τό πτερύγιον τοῦ ἱεροῦ see πτερύγιον, 2.

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Please visit my "Court" thread...........
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The Court in Revelation 11:2

Revelation 11:2
and the Court<833> outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring it, that it was given to the nations.
And the holy city they shall be trampling forty and two months

Matthew 26:3
Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the Court/fold<833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas [Revelation 11:2]

View attachment 260045

LittleLambofJesus said:

Good post.

Note it is the "Sanctuary" being measured, which contained the Holy Place and Most Holy place, which was located inside the Temple. The Chief Priests always railed against Jesus and only they were allowed to enter the Most Holy Place once a year.

I find it curious that the Greek word for Temple<2411> is never used once in Revelation, [even tho it is used in Matt 24 of the 70ad Olivet Discourse]

[Note the whole Court located inside the Temple is cast outside [not "left out" as most versions show]]:

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary<3485>[Holy and Most Holy Place] of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar of incense] and those worshiping in it.
2 and the Court<833> outside of the Sanctuary, be thou casting-out! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring it, that it was given to the nations.
And the holy city they shall be trampling forty and two months

Matthew 26:3
Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the Court/fold/aulhn <833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas [Revelation 11:2]

The Court of the Priest's (Herod's Temple )

=============
Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

3485. naos from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple. Compare 2411.
Strong's Number G3485 ναός (naos), occurs 46 times in 40 verses

===================================
Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Matthew 24:1
And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple<2411>.
And His Disciples approached Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.
Mark 13:1
And He going forth out of the Temple,
one of His Disciples is saying to Him “Teacher! behold! what manner of stones and what manner of buildings”
Luke 21:5
and of some saying concerning the Temple,
that to goodly stones and votive-offerings<334> it has been adorned<2885>
==========
2411. hieron neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

Please visit my "Court" thread...........
=============================================
The Court in Revelation 11:2

Revelation 11:2
and the Court<833> outside of the Sanctuary, be casting-out! out-side, and thou mayest not be measuring it, that it was given to the nations.
And the holy city they shall be trampling forty and two months

Matthew 26:3
Then were gathered together the Chief-priests and the Scribes, and the Elders of the people to the Court/fold<833> of the Chief-priest who was called Caiaphas [Revelation 11:2]

View attachment 260045

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Thanks for pointing that out, I had not seen or considered that the temple <3485> was referring to the Holy of Holies.

I looked at <3485> and found that in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, he as God will sit in the temple <3485> of God. This could be interpreted as the sacrifices and temple functions continuing after the resurrection and veil being torn. If interpreted this way the word temple <3485> could mean the physical location in the temple <2411> even though true believers wouldn’t recognize it as the Holy of Holies any more. 1 Corinthians 3:16 states that we (believers) are the temple <3485> of God. This interpretation would mean that there are 2 temples <3485> occurring simultaneously, one physical temple and one as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:16 at least until 70AD.

In Revelation 11:1 the people that worship in the temple <3485> are numbered or measured. In Revelation 7:9 there is a great multitude of all nations, standing before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and no man could number them. In Revelation 7:14-15 they are those who come out of great tribulation and serve God day and night in his temple <3485>. It seems highly unlikely that the people in Revelation 7:9 could have been numbered before they died and then not able to be numbered after death. So I don’t think the temple <3485> in revelation 11:1 can be referring to the temple <3485> of 1 Corinthians 3:16, especially if the great tribulation occurred in 70AD. (I associate the great tribulation with the blindness in part that has happened to Israel because I don’t think there can be any other tribulation greater than spiritual blindness).

The temple <3485> is measured and nothing more is said about it, but the court outside this temple is cast out and given to the Gentiles. This implies that the court outside the temple once belonged to Israel prior to it being given to the Gentiles. In Matthew 21:33-41 is the parable of the vineyard, however in this case in verse 39 it is the son of the vineyard owner that is killed and cast <1544> out. In Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God is taken from Israel and given to a nation that bears fruit.

I would place the outer court being cast out as referring to the cross and the veil being torn. This is when the Holy of Holies was separated from the temple <2411>. I also think it’s highly likely that the people who are numbered in Revelation 11:1 are the 144,000.

grafted branch said:

Thanks for pointing that out, I had not seen or considered that the temple <3485> was referring to the Holy of Holies.

I looked at <3485> and found that in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, he as God will sit in the temple <3485> of God. This could be interpreted as the sacrifices and temple functions continuing after the resurrection and veil being torn. If interpreted this way the word temple <3485> could mean the physical location in the temple <2411> even though true believers wouldn’t recognize it as the Holy of Holies any more. 1 Corinthians 3:16 states that we (believers) are the temple <3485> of God. This interpretation would mean that there are 2 temples <3485> occurring simultaneously, one physical temple and one as stated in 1 Corinthians 3:16 at least until 70AD.

In Revelation 11:1 the people that worship in the temple <3485> are numbered or measured. In Revelation 7:9 there is a great multitude of all nations, standing before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and no man could number them. In Revelation 7:14-15 they are those who come out of great tribulation and serve God day and night in his temple <3485>. It seems highly unlikely that the people in Revelation 7:9 could have been numbered before they died and then not able to be numbered after death. So I don’t think the temple <3485> in revelation 11:1 can be referring to the temple <3485> of 1 Corinthians 3:16, especially if the great tribulation occurred in 70AD. (I associate the great tribulation with the blindness in part that has happened to Israel because I don’t think there can be any other tribulation greater than spiritual blindness).

The temple <3485> is measured and nothing more is said about it, but the court outside this temple is cast out and given to the Gentiles. This implies that the court outside the temple once belonged to Israel prior to it being given to the Gentiles. In Matthew 21:33-41 is the parable of the vineyard, however in this case in verse 39 it is the son of the vineyard owner that is killed and cast <1544> out. In Matthew 21:43 the kingdom of God is taken from Israel and given to a nation that bears fruit.

I would place the outer court being cast out as referring to the cross and the veil being torn. This is when the Holy of Holies was separated from the temple <2411>. I also think it’s highly likely that the people who are numbered in Revelation 11:1 are the 144,000.

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Thanks for a very informative post. Yes Temple and Sanctuary are different. The Greek word for Temple #2411 is never used once in Revelation.
Whenever futurists quote a verse from Revelation, I go to the Greek

appears to be 2 different Jerusalems mentioned in Revelation as well as in Galatians 4.
The same form of the Greek word used for the casting out of OC Jerusalem in Gal 4 is used for the Court being cast out in Reve 11:2. And the NC New Jerusalem above.
Most all translations use "leave out" is a gross error and why

Revelation 11:2 and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side<1854>, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be treading/pathsousin <3961> (5692) forty two months.

Galatians: 21Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, don't you listen to the law? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the handmaid, and one by the free woman. 23However, the son by the handmaid was born according to the flesh, but the son by the free woman was born through promise. 24These things contain an allegory, for these are two covenants.
One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children to bondage, which is Hagar.
25For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to the Jerusalem that exists now, for she is in bondage with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27For it is written, "Rejoice, you barren who don't bear. Break forth and shout, you that don't travail. For more are the children of the desolate than of her who has a husband."
28Now we, brothers, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29But as then, he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.

30 but what saith the Writing? 'be Casting Out!/ek-bale <1544> (5628) the maid-servant/paidiskhn <3814> and the son of her....[Genesis 21:10]