Who is responsible for our sanctification?

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
So you and I are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ?

Certainly if we remain faithful... If not we will be cut off.
19 "You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble>21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."

It's very clear that we become elect by faith and lose it by unbelief.

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

sdowney717 said:
Your twisting what is written because it goes against everything you believe in about the election and calling of those whom God has foreknown as His people, which were not just jewish ones.

I can never understood how a Calvinist can maintain thier perspective on Romans 9, after reading Romans 10. You have to read Romans 9 in isolation to get that perspective.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
I did... but I still have no idea how Paul making the Jewish God known to the people of Athens through Christ our Lord has anything to do with the "who" is responsible for our salvation..

Who is responsible for our sanctification?

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
Certainly if we remain faithful... If not we will be cut off.
19 "You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble>21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either."

It's very clear that we become elect by faith and lose it by unbelief.

It doesn’t say that. It says, in essence, that our destiny is conformity. Is God not aware of the future?

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
So you and I are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ?

While you and everybody's uncle is thinking of going to heaven, salvation to the writers of Scripture is the pressing matter of receiving the promise made to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his descendants. Being conformed to Christ is the method , the Way that is going to happen , as opposed to becoming Boy Scouts, or joining the Peace Corp. Predestined is only an antiquated way of saying pre-planned. Sheesh.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
While you and everybody's uncle is thinking of going to heaven, salvation to the writers of Scripture is the pressing matter of receiving the promise made to Abraham, that the world would be blessed through his descendants. Being conformed to Christ is the method , the Way that is going to happen , as opposed to becoming Boy Scouts, or joining the Peace Corp. Predestined is only an antiquated way of saying pre-planned. Sheesh.

I don’t know if that’s a yes or no.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
I don’t know if that’s a yes or no.

You are framing the issue as if being conformed to Christ is the goal. It isn't, it's the means to the real goal, becoming blessings to the world. Why do we forget the promise ? Is it chopped liver?

Galatians 3
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
You are framing the issue as if being conformed to Christ is the goal. It isn't, it's the means to the real goal, becoming blessings to the world. Why do we forget the promise ? Is it chopped liver?

Galatians 3
13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” h 14He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

No, the goal is glorifying God. But that’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about who is responsible for our sanctification.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
No, the goal is glorifying God. But that’s not what we are talking about. We are talking about who is responsible for our sanctification.

Then why are you arguing about a predestined conformity to Christ?

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Then why are you arguing about a predestined conformity to Christ?

I’m quoting the verse.

Hazelelponi · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Who is responsible for our sanctification?

like I said, makes no sense whatsoever what this has to do with the thread topic - or anything else..

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

KingdomTruth said:
Both God and we are responsible for our sanctification. Working out your salvation in fear and trembling, means just that. You (Not God), working out your salvation (Not God's Salvation, Your Salvation), in fear and trembling. You must prove and confirm your election, by bearing fruit, till the very end.

What is God’s part?

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
like I said, makes no sense whatsoever what this has to do with the thread topic - or anything else..

That was Hammster's reply to jhansen:

Who is responsible for our sanctification?

renniks · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
It doesn’t say that. It says, in essence, that our destiny is conformity. Is God not aware of the future?

God is aware of the future because he is God. Not because he pre causes everything. The traditional arminian view would be that God looks forward in time so to speak and sees what men will have faith and elects them on that basis. I just gave another option that fits the text. The Calvinist reverses it and says that God predestines first, then foreknows. That's not what is says.

fhansen · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
How about we discuss what Paul means when he says that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son?

Ok, the sonship issue. Yes, it's said we can become adopted sons of God. I don't think we need to be-or should be-too hung up on the exclusivity thing. We can't know with 100% certainty who's predestined one way or the other and who is not. What we do have the ability to do now is to begin to "grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge..." Eph 3

And so if, by hearing the Word we find ourselves beginning to love Him-and also neighbor-because He first loved us, then from our perspective we can certainly have a level of assurance that we're on the right path, that we're one of His to the extent that we continue in this love, and the stronger it becomes the more assurance we have.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

renniks said:
God is aware of the future because he is God. Not because he pre causes everything. The traditional arminian view would be that God looks forward in time so to speak and sees what men will have faith and elects them on that basis. I just gave another option that fits the text. The Calvinist reverses it and says that God predestines first, then foreknows. That's not what is says.

I’m not making an argument either way. Even in Arminianism, I would think they’d say that God is responsible because He only predestines to be conformed those who He knows will believe.

Hammster · Aug 15, 2019

fhansen said:
Ok, the sonship issue. Yes, it's said we can become adopted sons of God. I don't think we need to be-or should be-too hung up on the exclusivity thing. We can't know with 100% certainty who's predestined one way or the other and who is not. What we do have the ability to do now is to begin to "grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge..." Eph 3

And so if, by hearing the Word, we begin to love Him-and also neighbor-because He first loved us, then from our perspective we can certainly have a level of assurance that we're on the right path, that we're one of His to the extent that we continue in this love, and the stronger it becomes the more assurance we have.

You are having a different discussion that I am. I guess that’s the problem with following Reformed Theology. Everybody assumes that the discussion is about election, etc.

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

Hammster said:
I’m quoting the verse.

There is no helpful information here regarding who is responsible for our sanctification.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Cornelius prayed for sanctification, and God got the communication, thus explaining foreknowledge. God preplanned a way for his sanctification, conformity to Christ, accessible by faith. Whilst formerly there was no shower available for cleansing, after the Resurrection, it was provided. It still needed the believer to step in, and he or she still had do works in keeping with faith, express loyalty, in order to be allowed in.

Aabbie James · Aug 15, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
The best way to put things into context is to express the idea the way modern writers would express it.

So, to the general question, you don't recognize the difference then...

Who is responsible for our sanctification?

Wordkeeper · Aug 15, 2019

KingdomTruth said:
Both God and we are responsible for our sanctification. Working out your salvation in fear and trembling, means just that. You (Not God), working out your salvation (Not God's Salvation, Your Salvation), in fear and trembling. You must prove and confirm your election, by bearing fruit, till the very end.

If sanctification is to be without stain, then the means is by being conformed to Christ, through grace, on being faithful. It's very clear therefore, that although God has provided the means, access to it is by performing loyal acts. There is no cloud following us around as we go about our normal routine. We have to qualify to use, and we have to use, the shower cubicle.

Who is responsible for our sanctification?

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