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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
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You are all stumbling over my strong objection and failing to address the questions effectively.

I couldn't care less about the term "sinless perfection", it is unscriptural anyway. I don't know who coined the term but it would have been better if he tied a millstone around his neck and jumped off the deck into the deep blue sea.

I am tired of the false accusations. I am tired of being told I am a sinner unless I keep sinning [because that's what you're all saying without realising it]. I am tired of being told that I have to sin because I am living in this body. Jesus and his apostles never told me this. Why do I have to sin just to satisfy you?

I tell you I won't do it. Jesus has set me free from all that and put the Spirit of my Father in me to obey him. I do not lie, I do not steal, I do not covet, I do not lust, and I don't want to; but, according to you, I have to [I think not!]

Sinlessness is not about perfection, its about maturity.

I have been and am a dad. I've changed pooey nappies in my day, and its offensive. You do it because you're dad and you love, but it doesn't mean you enjoy it. I have a son who is 38 and one who is 22, I would be extremely unhappy if I was still changing diapers today. My boys are brilliant and they have grown up and I'm happy about that.

Some here have served Jesus that long but they still want their heavenly Father to forgive their soiled nappies and wash their dirty backsides [1 John 1 vs 9 misapplied].

Why don't you grow up church?

I am always dependent on Jesus Christ. There is no salvation without him. I don't have to sin to prove it. I wouldn't even be alive having this discussion with you today if it weren't for him.

I don't know what TV evangelists I am supposed to be mimicking, I don't watch them.

I am 59 years old and have served Jesus for more than 50 of those years.

I'm sorry, I am not as educated as all of you, I barely made school leavers certificate. I was more interested in loving and serving Jesus than an education that served other gods, but this means that I am nothing in your eyes.

I don't mind this but I know that I can honestly say that I would die for each and every one of you. Jesus taught me this. I would do this even though I know my death would never be vicarious and, to you, a waste of time, but it is my prayer that God would forgive you through Jesus, as he did me, and give you everlasting life.

If this is pride, I am guilty. If this is sin, I am guilty. And I will gladly pay the price if my Father will show the real Jesus to you. Believe in the true power of his cross, my friend, it really is salvation.

I believe most Christians today think they can commit grievous sin and still be saved by having a belief alone on Jesus. They think obeying God or refraining from sin is impossible. However, I believe that they do not understand that the Bible teaches that not all sin is the same. There are grievous sins that lead unto spiritual death, and there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.

Grievous sin is another name for a "sin unto death"
(Note: To check out the reference to the "sin unto death," see: 1 John 5:17).
(i.e. death = spiritual death or the second death) (Note: The second death is destruction in the Lake of Fire - Revelation 21:8).

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;" (Genesis 18:20).​

Examples of Grievous Sin:

#1. Not loving God, and not loving your neighbor (For loving God and loving your neighbor is a part of eternal life; See: Luke 10:25-28 cf. Matthew 19:17-19; Not loving Jesus (God) means one is accursed, see: 1 Corinthians 16:22; As for not loving your neighbor, see the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:29-37), and then see number #5 below).

#2. Looking at a woman in lust = danger of being cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30).

#3. Not forgiving = not being forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15).

#4. One can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37).

#5. Not helping the poor or the unfortunate = Going away into everlasting punishment (or everlasting fire) (Matthew 25:31-46).

#6. No man who puts his hand to the plow (i.e. one who spreads the gospel and teachings to lead men of God into holiness by His Word) and looks back (turns away from doing so) is fit for the Kingdom of God (Luke 9:62) (Note: See the KJV rendering on this verse).

#7. 1 John 3:15 says, "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."

#8. Galatians 5:19-21 says, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Meaning, those who do these kinds of sins will not inherit (enter) God's kingdom (i.e. they will not be saved). For entering God's kingdom is associated with salvation in Matthew 25:34 (Note: Paul is mentioning the violation of the Moral Law. The Moral Law is the same equivalent as loving your neighbor; See Romans 13:8-10).

#9. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8).

Minor infractions or faults of character is another name for a "sin not unto death" (i.e. not unto death = not unto spiritual death or the second death) (Note: While the "sin not unto death" mentioned in 1 John 5:17 is in context to confessed sin in John's epistle (See: 1 John 1:9), it can be extended loosely to refer to the kind of sins that do not lead to spiritual death by it's very name).

"Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults."
(Psalms 19:12).​

Examples of Sins That Do Not Lead Unto Spiritual Death:

#1. 1 John 5:17 mentions the "sin not unto death."
In context to 1 John 5: This would be talking about confessed grievous sin that one is striving to overcome with the Lord's help (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Romans 13:14). In 1 John 5, the brethren are praying for this believer to have victory (life) over their sin as this believer confesses their sin.

#2. Psalms 19:12 says, "Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults." I believe these would be faults of character or minor errors that a person might make with people. Example: A person may not be a great listener, and they do not allow others to speak like they should. By not listening to others may come off a little like they do not care (even though they care in their own way or a different way). Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem. The Spirit warned Paul not to go. He was still determined to go because he loved His fellow Jews and wanted them to know the love of Jesus. The Spirit told the brethren that Paul will be imprisoned by his going to Jerusalem. The brethren warned Paul not to go. They were in tears and loved him and begged him not to go. But Paul did not listen. He would not hear them. He did not want to hear it. Fault of character. Hidden fault. Minor error of his character. It is not something that condemned him (See Acts of the Apostles 21, and read this article here by Ray Stedman; Note: There is even a better write up than this one by Bible commentator James Boice here; Please keep in mind I do not share their views on Soteriology, though; I merely agree with their view on what happened with Paul in Acts of the Apostles 21).

#3. The Command to Be Baptized.
Paul says Christ sent him not to baptize but to preach the gospel (1 Corinthians 1:17). If it was essential to salvation, then why would Paul say something like this? In 1 Peter 3:21: Peter says baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. If you were to turn to 2 Corinthians 7:1, you would see that it uses similar wording ("filthiness of the flesh") that is clearly in reference to sin. So Peter is saying that baptism is not for the putting away of "sin" [i.e. filth of the flesh]. In other words, baptism is not a command that if disobeyed, leads to spiritual death.

#4. Other Commands in the New Testament that do not seem like a major violation of loving God and loving your neighbor that have no death penalties attached to them. One example would be the command to Rejoice when men persecute you or falsely accuse you of evil in Matthew 5:11-12.

Real world examples: Going 5 miles per hour over the speed limit in area that is not life threatening to others. Not taking out the trash yesterday when it was a little stinky. These minor transgressions would obviously not send a Christian to hell.

But we as Christians strive to obey and do good in all things in the Lord. We strive to keep His commandments. For it is written,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.' (1 John 5:3).​


Side Note:

Please understand that I believe it is not possible for a person to obey God's commands without them first being saved by Jesus Christ and His grace (i.e. by seeking forgiveness of their sin with Him, and believing in His death, and resurrection on their behalf). For Christians are initially and ultimately saved by Jesus Christ.
 
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tdidymas

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Once again you are incorrect, 1 John 1:8 does not state this.

No one can say that they have no sin because we have all sinned. John is not saying that sin continues to abide in us. This chapter is his gospel message and he clarifies his meaning in this statement with another in 1 John 1:10, then he opens with the statement that he wrote these things so that we sin not and continues to emphasise the same argument Paul puts forward in Romans 6, whoever is born of God cannot sin. Why? Because sin does not abide in them.

This is where I think you err in your interpretation. John 1:8 says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Well, it's pretty clear to me that he is saying sin is still in us. And he also includes himself by saying "we." It means he has the very same experience as is common among Christians. Since he says later "the one born of God cannot sin..." we must conclude that the term "sin" in these two statements have a different contextual meaning, or else he is contradicting himself.

The conclusion I draw from this is that in 1:8 he is speaking of the sin principle, or "sinful nature" as most people call it. This requires us to constantly war against sin in ourselves, and continue in an ongoing repentive attitude, and this is his meaning in 3:9. So I see John saying that we have to recognize that we're still in the world, and therefore have a tendency to love it (thus the warning to not love it), and to be in a constantly daily commitment to love our brothers in Christ.

Even James who wrote "cleanse your hands, you sinners..." also wrote "we all stumble in many ways," in which he includes himself. So I see James in agreement with John in this matter.
TD:)
 
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D.A. Wright

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...there are minor infractions or hidden faults that do not lead to spiritual death.
Absolute bunk. Where do you get this stuff? I can think of a single verse that flatly up-ends this nonsense. Oh, my head hurts.
 
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D.A. Wright

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This is where I think you err in your interpretation. John 1:8 says "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Well, it's pretty clear to me that he is saying sin is still in us. And he also includes himself by saying "we." It means he has the very same experience as is common among Christians. Since he says later "the one born of God cannot sin..." we must conclude that the term "sin" in these two statements have a different contextual meaning, or else he is contradicting himself.
Or, perhaps, you err in your interpretation.

What if the Bible just means exactly what it says?

But wait, that would mean we would have to accept a pardoxical interpretation and part with our cherished sin.
 
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Absolute bunk. Where do you get this stuff? I can think of a single verse that flatly up-ends this nonsense. Oh, my head hurts.

Start with 1 John 5:17. It mentions that there is "a sin not unto death."
There are different degrees of sin.
Jesus says there is a greater sin (John 19:11).
Jesus said to the Pharisees that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law, like love, faith, justice and mercy (See: Matthew 23:23, and Luke 11:42).
Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4).
In Matthew 12:32, speaking bad words against the Holy Ghost can never be forgiven, and speaking words of against the Son can be forgiven.
 
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Once again you are incorrect, 1 John 1:8 does not state this.

No one can say that they have no sin because we have all sinned. John is not saying that sin continues to abide in us. This chapter is his gospel message and he clarifies his meaning in this statement with another in 1 John 1:10, then he opens with the statement that he wrote these things so that we sin not and continues to emphasise the same argument Paul puts forward in Romans 6, whoever is born of God cannot sin. Why? Because sin does not abide in them.

I believe many Christians today wave 1 John 1:8 as a banner flag to justify that they can commit grievous sin and still be saved while doing so (all because they have a belief alone on Jesus). However, I believe that their Soteriology, and their understanding on 1 John 1:8 is not biblical.

I believe that what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.
 
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You are all stumbling over my strong objection and failing to address the questions effectively.

I couldn't care less about the term "sinless perfection", it is unscriptural anyway. I don't know who coined the term but it would have been better if he tied a millstone around his neck and jumped off the deck into the deep blue sea.

I am tired of the false accusations. I am tired of being told I am a sinner unless I keep sinning [because that's what you're all saying without realising it]. I am tired of being told that I have to sin because I am living in this body. Jesus and his apostles never told me this. Why do I have to sin just to satisfy you?

I tell you I won't do it. Jesus has set me free from all that and put the Spirit of my Father in me to obey him. I do not lie, I do not steal, I do not covet, I do not lust, and I don't want to; but, according to you, I have to [I think not!]

Sinlessness is not about perfection, its about maturity.

I have been and am a dad. I've changed pooey nappies in my day, and its offensive. You do it because you're dad and you love, but it doesn't mean you enjoy it. I have a son who is 38 and one who is 22, I would be extremely unhappy if I was still changing diapers today. My boys are brilliant and they have grown up and I'm happy about that.

Some here have served Jesus that long but they still want their heavenly Father to forgive their soiled nappies and wash their dirty backsides [1 John 1 vs 9 misapplied].

Why don't you grow up church?

I am always dependent on Jesus Christ. There is no salvation without him. I don't have to sin to prove it. I wouldn't even be alive having this discussion with you today if it weren't for him.

I don't know what TV evangelists I am supposed to be mimicking, I don't watch them.

I am 59 years old and have served Jesus for more than 50 of those years.

I'm sorry, I am not as educated as all of you, I barely made school leavers certificate. I was more interested in loving and serving Jesus than an education that served other gods, but this means that I am nothing in your eyes.

I don't mind this but I know that I can honestly say that I would die for each and every one of you. Jesus taught me this. I would do this even though I know my death would never be vicarious and, to you, a waste of time, but it is my prayer that God would forgive you through Jesus, as he did me, and give you everlasting life.

If this is pride, I am guilty. If this is sin, I am guilty. And I will gladly pay the price if my Father will show the real Jesus to you. Believe in the true power of his cross, my friend, it really is salvation.

While I would not desire to let this separate us as brothers in Christ, I do disagree with you on the topic of Sinless Perfection. Granted, I am not allowed to talk about Sinless Perfection at great length in this section of the forums, I will say briefly that it not a salvation issue because it does not deal with exclusively with putting away grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.). I believe Sinless Perfection deals more with putting away sins that do not lead to unto spiritual death (like not taking the trash out on time, or going over the speed limit a little, etc.).

To learn more about this topic, or to discuss it, you can check out my thread on this here (if you are interested):

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

May God bless you today.
 
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When king Saul broke God's commands, they were so serious that they ended up costing him his kingship and it destroyed his relationship (salvation) with God.

Yet, when Moses was angry and hit the rock, nothing was ever said that he was condemned by such a thing. Yes, he was prevented from entering the earthly promised land, but he was not condemned by God to hell like others who disobeyed God's commands. For we see Moses at the Mt. of Transfiguration with Jesus.

In Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8, the sin of worshiping the beast is the kind of sin that is so bad to God that they never even had their names written in the book of life since the foundation of the world.

Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). So not all of God's commands (that are broken) are held to the same kind of punishment.
 
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HatGuy

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I have a few questions for those who believe that one cannot be sinless in this life.
I believe that the doctrine of entire sanctification / perfect love / Christian perfection is not the same thing as a doctrine of sinlessness.

1. Romans 7 vs 7 to 23 is interpreted as being post salvation. If this is true...
Why is Paul, who claims to live by faith and not by the law since coming to Christ still struggling with the law?
I take the view that Romans 7 is about what happens when a Christian puts themselves under law again. But who will save from this body of death? Thanks be to Jesus Christ, our Lord.

So in that case, I think it may refer to Paul's experience when he would put himself under law - then sin would return. And so the warning there is not to live in the Law but live in the Spirit, which is what Romans 8 then starts talking about.

2. 1 John 1 is often interpreted as proof that those who say they have achieved sinlessness in this life are liars, Yet in John 2 vs 1 he says he wrote it so that we may stop sinning. Does this not show that you have misinterpreted his intention in chapter 1?
Many would say that John is referring to a 'habit' or 'lifestyle' of sin, not to never sinning again. That certainly makes sense given the context. John Wesley would make a differentiation between willful sin and mistakes. It's a helpful distinction.

3. If you came across such a one as has not sinned since salvation, why would this bother you? Is it not a good thing?
It would be amazing and I would want that. But I haven't come across such a one.

4. Do you not know that to become sinless is a gift of grace? It is all of Christ and not of man. Are you not aware that no one can be sinless without Christ?
I think, though, that 'sinless' is not the right phrase. Perfection is something that keeps going (we are constantly being perfected) and yet has defined moments where a certain level of perfection is received. I agree that the perfecting of a Christian is all an act of Christ's grace, but I don't think 'sinlessness' is helpful nor true.

I must conclude from reading the Scriptures that the claim one will never cease from sinning while in the body is heresy and not the doctrine of Christ or his apostles.
I do think this is incorrect.

However, to make the claim that we are not perfected or cannot live entirely sanctified is also incorrect.

The meaning of sanctification is to be 'set apart' for Christ's purposes. But like faith, this is an ongoing, living thing. It needs to be a constant state, not achieved one day. However, there may be a 'one day' or several 'one days' when a person reaches a certain level of perfection in Christ and never goes back. I think that's a healthy doctrine of Christian perfection, and much more truer to the original proponents of the doctrine.
 
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I believe that the doctrine of entire sanctification / perfect love / Christian perfection is not the same thing as a doctrine of sinlessness.


I take the view that Romans 7 is about what happens when a Christian puts themselves under law again. But who will save from this body of death? Thanks be to Jesus Christ, our Lord.

So in that case, I think it may refer to Paul's experience when he would put himself under law - then sin would return. And so the warning there is not to live in the Law but live in the Spirit, which is what Romans 8 then starts talking about.


Many would say that John is referring to a 'habit' or 'lifestyle' of sin, not to never sinning again. That certainly makes sense given the context. John Wesley would make a differentiation between willful sin and mistakes. It's a helpful distinction.


It would be amazing and I would want that. But I haven't come across such a one.


I think, though, that 'sinless' is not the right phrase. Perfection is something that keeps going (we are constantly being perfected) and yet has defined moments where a certain level of perfection is received. I agree that the perfecting of a Christian is all an act of Christ's grace, but I don't think 'sinlessness' is helpful nor true.


I do think this is incorrect.

However, to make the claim that we are not perfected or cannot live entirely sanctified is also incorrect.

The meaning of sanctification is to be 'set apart' for Christ's purposes. But like faith, this is an ongoing, living thing. It needs to be a constant state, not achieved one day. However, there may be a 'one day' or several 'one days' when a person reaches a certain level of perfection in Christ and never goes back. I think that's a healthy doctrine of Christian perfection, and much more truer to the original proponents of the doctrine.

I disagree, friend. I believe in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is talking from his perspective as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. The Pharisees believed in the false religion of turning God's plan of salvation into a system of works (with very little emphasis on God's grace - See: Luke 18:9-14). I believe Romans 8:2 says there is a "New Covenant Law" that makes us free from the "Old Covenant Law." This New Covenant Law is the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus." It is defined for us in Romans 8:1 and Romans 8:3-4.

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Certain Modern Translations wrongfully remove the words that say: "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." But these words are repeated in Romans 8:13 using different wording. Anyways, Romans 8:2 says that there is a "law of sin and death." (i.e. the 613 laws of the "Law of Moses"). Keeping the NT Law called: "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" makes one free from the Old Law called "the law of sin and death." (i.e. the Law of Moses or the Torah given to Israel). Romans 7:6 says we are to SERVE in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah (i.e. the five books of Moses, and or the whole of the OT Scriptures). The newness of spirit that we are to serve in are the commands within the New Testament Scriptures. These commands are from the Lord Jesus Himself, and from His followers. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So there is still law under the New Covenant. In fact, believing in Jesus is a commandment or law (See 1 John 3:23). Repentance is also a commandment or law under the New Covenant (Acts of the Apostles 17:30) (Note: I believe repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus by way of prayer, and that the "fruits of repentance" is forsaking sin and living holy). Anyways, the Bible tells us to live holy for the Lord. For we are still told, "Be ye holy, as I am holy" by God in the New Covenant (1 Peter 1:16). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). For we are told to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
 
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Many would say that John is referring to a 'habit' or 'lifestyle' of sin, not to never sinning again. That certainly makes sense given the context. John Wesley would make a differentiation between willful sin and mistakes. It's a helpful distinction.

While is true that John says we have an advocate if we do sin, John is not saying that we will always sin the rest of our lives whereby we would need an advocate. If such were the case, then "sin not" would not make any sense.

If I tell a person to "jump not" that does not mean I am telling them to not habitually make a lifestyle of jumping and yet it is okay if they sometimes jump. It simply means I am telling them to no longer jump anymore.

Also, if John is talking exclusively about not living in a habitual lifestyle of sin (Which he is not), then why does he say the following words in 1 John 3:15?

For 1 John 3:15 says,
"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."​

If we are to be consistent with John speaking in his epistle about not "making sin a lifestyle choice only and not refraining from sinning ever again," then that means we can sometimes murder on occasion and it will be okay with God.

But we know that such a thing is not okay. For it only took one sin to separate Adam and Eve from God spiritually. Furthermore,

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

One sin.
That is all it takes for a person to destroy their own soul, unless of course they repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ), and they put away such a sin out of their lives.
 
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I believe that the doctrine of entire sanctification / perfect love / Christian perfection is not the same thing as a doctrine of sinlessness.

While I do not want to talk great length about Sinless Perfectionism in this section of the forums (because it is not allowed), I will say briefly that my view of Sinless Perfectionism is different, as well. I do not believe it is exclusively taking about putting away grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.), but is also focused on putting away minor transgressions or faults of character that do not lead to spiritual death (like not taking out the trash on time, or going over the speed limit a little, etc.). In short, Sinless Perfectionism is not a salvation issue. But a believer does need to put away grievous sin that does lead to spiritual death in order to maintain a right standing with their Lord (i.e. salvation). Believers should be meeting the bare minimum level requirements for living holy as a part of the Sanctification process. They shouldn't be justifying any kind of grievous sin of any kind.

To learn more about my view of Sinless Perfectionism, you can check out my thread on it here:

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.
 
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It would be amazing and I would want that. But I haven't come across such a one.

Well, we are living in the last days. Many have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasures more than they are lovers of God (See 2 Timothy 3:1-9). This is a test of our faith. Do we walk by sight? Or do we walk by faith in God's Word?
 
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I disagree, friend. I believe in Romans 7:14-24, Paul is talking from his perspective as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. The Pharisees believed in the false religion of turning God's plan of salvation into a system of works (with very little emphasis on God's grace - See: Luke 18:9-14). I believe Romans 8:2 says there is a "New Covenant Law" that makes us free from the "Old Covenant Law." This New Covenant Law is the "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus." It is defined for us in Romans 8:1 and Romans 8:3-4.

Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Certain Modern Translations wrongfully remove the words that say: "walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." But these words are repeated in Romans 8:13 using different wording. Anyways, Romans 8:2 says that there is a "law of sin and death." (i.e. the 613 laws of the "Law of Moses"). Keeping the NT Law called: "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" makes one free from the Old Law called "the law of sin and death." (i.e. the Law of Moses or the Torah given to Israel). Romans 7:6 says we are to SERVE in newness of Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. The oldness of the letter is the Torah (i.e. the five books of Moses, and or the whole of the OT Scriptures). The newness of spirit that we are to serve in are the commands within the New Testament Scriptures. These commands are from the Lord Jesus Himself, and from His followers. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. So there is still law under the New Covenant. In fact, believing in Jesus is a commandment or law (See 1 John 3:23). Repentance is also a commandment or law under the New Covenant (Acts of the Apostles 17:30) (Note: I believe repentance is seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus by way of prayer, and that the "fruits of repentance" is forsaking sin and living holy). Anyways, the Bible tells us to live holy for the Lord. For we are still told, "Be ye holy, as I am holy" by God in the New Covenant (1 Peter 1:16). For God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12). For we are told to cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1). For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
Thank you for providing such a detailed and lengthy commentary. Sometimes at forums like this we put a lot of work into our posts, and the person replies with, "meh". So thanks for all the effort, appreciate it.

I will keep this in mind for further study, but for now I can say that I didn't come to my conclusion because someone I liked taught it. I spent weeks (perhaps even two months) just reading Romans 6 - 8 to try and make heads and tails of it.

I eventually wrote a book about sanctification, and I could post the link here, but it's a long lengthy theological book and not everyone finds it light reading. If you were ever interested, you can let me know.

I agree that Romans 7 is written from Paul's perspective of when he was a Pharisee, however I think the larger argument he is making by putting Rom 7 inbetween Rom 6 (which talks of being dead to sin) and Rom 8 (which talks about living in the Spirit) is to show what happens when a Christian decides to be a Pharisee. He is saying: this is what it was like to be a Pharisee under the Law. Conclusion: it sucked. You knew the Law but couldn't live up to it. However, you do live up to it in the Spirit of Christ. In fact, you even go beyond it and live in perfect love.

However, I disagree that there is any point being made in keeping any other law, including keeping the law of the life of the Spirit in Christ Jesus. (I use the NET, and it calls it "the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus."). The point being made by Paul is that keeping any Law results in sin, but by submitting to the Spirit, you actually not only keep the law but you manage to actually kill the misdeeds of the body. So you get to the root of the problem.

Paul's point in Rom 7 is to show that the minute you make keeping any kind of law a thing, then you short-circuit the Spirit's work. The point is not make keeping a law anything, but to live in the Spirit. In other words, a spiritual thing must happen in you; and this living is predominantly activated and sustained by faith in the Son of God.

I get this by looking at the much broader use of law in Colossians and the negative views of law in Galatians.

Moreso, if you think about it carefully, any looking to keep a law for your righteousness is a move of unbelief towards Christ. Is his work in us not good enough that we have to look at keeping a law? We have the very Spirit of Christ - that is surely good enough to go beyond living the letter of the Law to living the very heart of the Law, which I think is encapsulated well in the phrase "perfect love".
 
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While is true that John says we have an advocate if we do sin, John is not saying that we will always sin the rest of our lives whereby we would need an advocate. If such were the case, then "sin not" would not make any sense.

If I tell a person to "jump not" that does not mean I am telling them to not habitually make a lifestyle of jumping and yet it is okay if they sometimes jump. It simply means I am telling them to no longer jump anymore.

Also, if John is talking exclusively about not living in a habitual lifestyle of sin (Which he is not), then why does he say the following words in 1 John 3:15?

For 1 John 3:15 says,
"Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."​

If we are to be consistent with John speaking in his epistle about not "making sin a lifestyle choice only and not refraining from sinning ever again," then that means we can sometimes murder on occasion and it will be okay with God.

But we know that such a thing is not okay. For it only took one sin to separate Adam and Eve from God spiritually. Furthermore,

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

One sin.
That is all it takes for a person to destroy their own soul, unless of course they repent (seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ), and they put away such a sin out of their lives.
These are good points, but I'll address my views in a summary form below, in reply to your follow-up post.

While I do not want to talk great length about Sinless Perfectionism in this section of the forums (because it is not allowed), I will say briefly that my view of Sinless Perfectionism is different, as well. I do not believe it is exclusively taking about putting away grievous sin (like lying, lusting, hating, etc.), but is also focused on putting away minor transgressions or faults of character that do not lead to spiritual death (like not taking out the trash on time, or going over the speed limit a little, etc.). In short, Sinless Perfectionism is not a salvation issue. But a believer does need to put away grievous sin that does lead to spiritual death in order to maintain a right standing with their Lord (i.e. salvation). Believers should be meeting the bare minimum level requirements for living holy as a part of the Sanctification process. They shouldn't be justifying any kind of grievous sin of any kind.

To learn more about my view of Sinless Perfectionism, you can check out my thread on it here:

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.
I will read the link.

I agree with this "putting away" concept but it betrays the view of sinless perfectionism, simply because it implies that we are always "putting away".

If we are always "putting away" then we never quite arrive at a state of sinless perfectionism, and if that's the case, well then we are quite agreed. There is certainly a case to be made for the "putting away", but a lot of "putting away" of the minor transgressions only happens once you're aware of them. For example, not taking out the trash on time. Well, what I might view as "on time" and my wife as "on time" are two different things. To honour and love her, I might very well take it out on her "on time" but knowing when that is might take a bit of time. In other words, it's not always clear how to love someone and often we miscalculate and sin against someone through quite an innocent mistake. So the constant learning of loving better is surely a lifelong process - and the "putting away" of sins is surely also a lifelong learning. The point is having a heart that wants to put away such things, and that's what I think the original doctrine of entire sanctification was getting at.
 
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Well, we are living in the last days. Many have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasures more than they are lovers of God (See 2 Timothy 3:1-9). This is a test of our faith. Do we walk by sight? Or do we walk by faith in God's Word?
Yes, we live by faith in God's word, but we must always make sure not to put our words (our interpretation of matters) into God's mouth (his Word). Very often, we do just that, and then when we don't experience it we think God's Word is faulty when, in fact, we just presumed and assumed what it was saying.

I believe we've been living in the last days since the time of the apostles, so our eschatological frameworks may differ. However, I agree many have a form of godliness and deny its power. Having said that, a test of faith comes in battling with sin as well. Do you believe that if you do sin, if you even fall into some sort of addiction, that you are still saved by the blood of the Lamb if you continue to put your trust in Him? That is also a test of faith in God and His Word.

I'm digressing, though. But I think the fact that I have never met someone who really was sinlessly perfect means I have to be careful to make assumptions as to the Bible's meaning. Surely, at some stage, God would actually prove His word true, somewhere, somehow?

Unless you've met someone who was sinlessly perfect? If so, that's amazing, and I am genuinely curious about that.
 
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These are good points, but I'll address my views in a summary form below, in reply to your follow-up post.


I will read the link.

I agree with this "putting away" concept but it betrays the view of sinless perfectionism, simply because it implies that we are always "putting away".

If we are always "putting away" then we never quite arrive at a state of sinless perfectionism, and if that's the case, well then we are quite agreed. There is certainly a case to be made for the "putting away", but a lot of "putting away" of the minor transgressions only happens once you're aware of them. For example, not taking out the trash on time. Well, what I might view as "on time" and my wife as "on time" are two different things. To honour and love her, I might very well take it out on her "on time" but knowing when that is might take a bit of time. In other words, it's not always clear how to love someone and often we miscalculate and sin against someone through quite an innocent mistake. So the constant learning of loving better is surely a lifelong process - and the "putting away" of sins is surely also a lifelong learning. The point is having a heart that wants to put away such things, and that's what I think the original doctrine of entire sanctification was getting at.

I think there is a lack of clarity in my words here. I mean to say that we should put away sin today. On the other hand, this sometimes can be a process for a believer, and not an overnight thing. Granted, it can be an overnight thing, but I think it depends on the believer. Each person is different, and only the Lord truly knows the hearts and intentions of each individual on if they are justifying sin or not. The point I want to make is that a believer should overcome grievous sin (that leads to spiritual death), and they should also fight and or seek to put away (for good) today any minor transgression or fault of character in their life (that does not lead to spiritual death even). A believer should seek to obey the Lord in everything today. They should not think that God's grace is a safety net to sin in the fact that they will know that they will sin again in the future at some undetermined date as a matter of fact.
 
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Yes, we live by faith in God's word, but we must always make sure not to put our words (our interpretation of matters) into God's mouth (his Word). Very often, we do just that, and then when we don't experience it we think God's Word is faulty when, in fact, we just presumed and assumed what it was saying.

I believe we've been living in the last days since the time of the apostles, so our eschatological frameworks may differ. However, I agree many have a form of godliness and deny its power. Having said that, a test of faith comes in battling with sin as well. Do you believe that if you do sin, if you even fall into some sort of addiction, that you are still saved by the blood of the Lamb if you continue to put your trust in Him? That is also a test of faith in God and His Word.

I'm digressing, though. But I think the fact that I have never met someone who really was sinlessly perfect means I have to be careful to make assumptions as to the Bible's meaning. Surely, at some stage, God would actually prove His word true, somewhere, somehow?

Unless you've met someone who was sinlessly perfect? If so, that's amazing, and I am genuinely curious about that.

I agree that we have been living in the last days since the apostles (based upon Peter's words in Acts), but the difference is that things are not exactly the same as they were in the early church, either. The last days that Paul refers to in 2 Timothy 3:1-9 uses words that sound like they are still yet future (as if it was a prophecy that needed to happen). Jesus even speaks of a time when the love of many will wax cold. I believe that time is still yet future. But 2 Timothy 3:1-9 is happening now. I don't believe Paul was saying that it was happening during his own time. Read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 again, it speaks in a way that still sounds yet future to him.
 
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