Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?

Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?

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JIMINZ

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This is what makes us human and above the animals.

The only thing that makes us human and above the animals is, God gave Dominion to humans, which placed them over animals, it isn't any kind of science telling us we have the ability to choose that makes us superior.

Man's laws dictate that we know right from wrong and we are responsible to make the right choices in life.

Those are Gods laws which do that.

Man might know the difference between right and wrong, we might even have all of the Laws written down for us to study night and day, but Paul said.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom. 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Therefore having all the laws in the world and all of the knowledge of right and wrong, has never kept one human from sinning, now that is what your Free will or ability to Choose is all about, which is something man does not possess, he lost it in the Fall.

We have inherited a Corrupt Human Nature from our Father Adam, we Naturally tend to sin, and always will, it's what we are, it's what we do, even after our Salvation our flesh still wars in our Flesh against the Spirit in us.

The Bible says many are called but few are chosen. We respond to God's call by living a life of holiness and sanctification.

The Parable which that quote came from is talking about the Jews loosing the Kingdom, they were the ones CALLED to the Wedding Feast, but rejected their Messiah, therefore the man without the Wedding Garment (The Robe of Righteousness) was not allowed to stay.

It has nothing at all to do with God Choosing some, even though He has Called everyone in the world.

We respond to God's call by living a life of holiness and sanctification.

We respond to Gods' Grace, by living a Sanctified life of Holiness through Christ

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Yes we still have animal hormones but we are called to control our human nature. Again man requires that of us and God requires that if we want to serve Him and be used by Him. If we want to take our priesthood and our calling serious.

Where do you get the belief we have Animal Hormones or that they control our Human Nature.

As I have stated before, WE Cannot Control anything we do, All Have Sinned.

We didn't evolve from Monkeys we don't have anything from Animals.

Adam was Created a Human Being, separate from the Animals, to have Dominion over all of Gods' Creation, we do not inherit anything from Animals, were were Created in the Image of God.

Gen. 1:26,27
26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

As far as us taking our Priesthood and Calling seriously.

Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

This isn't something we have to work at, we have been Ordained to do them, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit Dwelling in us.

1Peter2:9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."

Peter was not speaking to All Believers of all time, he was speaking Specifically to those people of that time, they were the Chosen People The Royal Priesthood, The Holy Nation.
 
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ralliann

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The old covenant is not the same as the promise made to Abraham and his offspring.

The Abrahamic promises are unconditional to Abraham and his offspring

The old covenant was a conditional agreement between God and Israel that came 430 years after the unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring.

We need to understand Paul's argument. If the promise to Abraham and his offspring was unconditional how can the promises of the old covenant agreement be conditional?

Because the offspring that the unconditional promises referred to in Abraham's case is Christ.

Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ

Thus God made an unconditional promise with Abraham and his offspring. The offspring being Christ.

God made a conditional promise through the old covenant with nation of Israel.

The confusion is founded upon the belief that the offspring from the Abrahamic promises and nation of Israel are the same. Thus it would be contradictory for God to make an unconditional promise with the offspring (nation of Israel) and a conditional promise with the nation of Israel.

But Paul clarifies that the offspring of the Abrahamic promises is singular and not plural in a grammatical sense, thus the offspring is Jesus. This fixes the contradiction.



the old covenant was the agreement between in Israel and God. If Israel obeyed all of the law, God would bless them. the agreement was put in place when the law was given.



The Abrahamic promise was one sided on the part of God, not Abraham. It was given prior to circumcision. Thus the Abrahamic promise was unconditional

The old covenant was 2 sided. Israel was required to obey all of the law for God to give the blessings.




Good, we are in agreement that the conditional promises of the old covenant are no longer in effect. The Abrahamic promises are fulfilled in Christ and apply to all those in Christ even today.
 
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ralliann

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Ok, I am glad you clarified things. And we agree on most. but I do not think the covenant made in with Abraham is unconditional.

I believe the conditions Abrahamic covenants (one in Genesis 15 and another in Genesis 17) were and are faith. As Paul says, the law of faith.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. {perfect: or, upright, or, sincere }
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
God was building Abrahams faith to it's fullness or completeness. When God tested Abraham concerning his son Isaac, he had brought Abraham to the fullness or completion of faith. God then confirmed everything with an oath. Then for Abraham it was unconditional what was spoken to him. Until such time as Abraham came to the fullness of the faith, God did not bind himself with an oath, and could have changed his mind had Abraham not believed and not sacrificed Isaac .
Notice how James speaks of the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {Seest … : or, Thou seest }

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The scripture which was fulfilled (made full or complete) was spoken much earlier before he had any offspring.

Ge 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
James says the above scripture was fulfilled when he sacrificed Isaac.
Calling those things that be not as though they were.
Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Just as God had not made Abraham a Father of many nations yet, He spoke as though he had.
 
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joshua 1 9

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it isn't any kind of science telling us we have the ability to choose that makes us superior.
Yes there is the neo surgeons that operate on the brain to remove cancer. It is essential they tell you what the risks are and what that part of the brain does. You can stick your head in the sand and ignore science if you want. But the truth is we do have the ability to choose and the legal system will hold us accountable for the choices we make in life.

Those are Gods laws which do that.
How can God give us laws if we do not have the ability to follow those laws?

Paul said.

Rom. 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
This is why we must be born again and a new creation in Christ. God does a work in and through us so that we depend upon HIM. Just like the Holy Spirit is our Guide & our Teacher. So we lean NOT on our OWN understanding, but trust in God.

We have inherited a Corrupt Human Nature from our Father Adam
Yes and Paul tells us in 1 Cor15 "22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" We know that there are people that deny the power of God. We are to have nothing to do with these people: "having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people." (2Tim3:5)
 
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joshua 1 9

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Where do you get the belief we have Animal Hormones or that they control our Human Nature.
Oh I am glad you brought that up. Did you ever do a study on the prairie vole mating? This subject is very interesting and they have done a lot of research on this. In Wiki we read: "This uniqueness in the prairie vole behavior is related to the oxytocin and vasopressin hormones."

I can understand that you have not studied up on hormones. I know Dr and PhD's that do not know as much about this subject as they should. The current opioid epidemic that is killing so many people is based on the prescription drug Oxycontin. This drug plugs into the receptors for the natural hormone oxytocin. Oxytocin is produced in the hypothalamus and is secreted into the bloodstream by the posterior pituitary gland. Secretion depends on electrical activity of neurons in the hypothalamus – it is released into the blood when these cells are excited.

Oxytocin is produced in humans and in prairie vole. Study after study has shown that this is why prairie voles mate for life along with 8 different animals that also mate for life because of the high levels they have of these hormone. This is known as the love hormone or the cuddle hormone.

On the farm there were farmers that carried a knife in their pocket that had a blade they could use to castrate the animals. Today we have a Trap, Neuter, Release (TNR) program for feral cats. When you castrate a male cat they are a lot more tame. We trapped and neutered 7 cats last summer. The male cats tend to fight a lot less after they are fixed. Although it could take up to a year to clear the hormones out of their system. If you do not get the female cats fixed they could put out a litter of kittens every 5 months. I have read that it is possible for a cat to produce up to 500 kittens in their life time. Because of what? Hormones. So they remove the glands that produce the hormones.

Today we do not castrate people, but they do expect them to control their hormones. People can go to prison and get into a lot of trouble if they can not control their hormones. We still have communities that want to control the over population of animals with euthanasia rather then birth control. Even though the modern world accepts that this is the best way to deal with the issue.

When I looked for a wife I wanted to be sure she had normal levels of this hormone so that she would mate for life. 80% of first marriages last a life time. 20% of the people are responsible for most of the divorces because they keep getting married and then divorced to different people. Even there are people that have gone though as may as 12 marriages.
 
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claninja

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Ok, I am glad you clarified things. And we agree on most.

It's always nice to find common ground.

but I do not think the covenant made in with Abraham is unconditional.
I believe the conditions Abrahamic covenants (one in Genesis 15 and another in Genesis 17) were and are faith. As Paul says, the law of faith.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

It is not through works of the law, but through the righteousness of faith that Abraham and his descendants would be heir of the world.

Romans 4:13 For it was not through the law that Abraham and his descendants were promised that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

I do not believe faith is a work. Faith is trusting that God's promises/righteous works will be fulfilled.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.


When God confirmed the covenant with Abraham, only God passed through the halves of the carcasses. Abraham did not.

Genesis 15:10-21 So Abram brought all these to Him, split each of them down the middle, and laid the halves opposite each other. The birds, however, he did not cut. And the birds of prey descended on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and suddenly great terror and darkness overwhelmed him. Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not their own; they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will judge the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will depart with many possessions. You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a ripe old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, behold, a smoking firepot and a flaming torch appeared and passed between the halves of the carcasses. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land—from the river of Egypt to the great River Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites.”

However, as told by Jeremiah, the Israelites themselves also passed through the halves of the carcasses as a confirmation that they would uphold their end of the old covenant agreement

Jeremiah 34:18 And those who have transgressed My covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before Me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two in order to pass between its pieces

So we see that God made promises to Abraham. Abraham trusted God's word (faith which was accredited as righteousness). Only God passed through the halves of the carcasses at the promise confirmation, thus signifying that only God was the responsible party for the covenant. This was done prior to circumcision. Thus the unconditional promise came through Abraham's faith that God would fulfill His words.

Genesis 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect. {perfect: or, upright, or, sincere }
2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.
God was building Abrahams faith to it's fullness or completeness. When God tested Abraham concerning his son Isaac, he had brought Abraham to the fullness or completion of faith. God then confirmed everything with an oath. Then for Abraham it was unconditional what was spoken to him. Until such time as Abraham came to the fullness of the faith, God did not bind himself with an oath, and could have changed his mind had Abraham not believed and not sacrificed Isaac .
Notice how James speaks of the imputation of righteousness to Abraham.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? {Seest … : or, Thou seest }

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

This came after the promise had already been made.

Romans 4:9-10 Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness. In what context was it credited? Was it after his circumcision, or before? It was not after, but before.

The promises made to Abraham were unconditional in that no righteous works were required on his end of the promise for God to uphold His word. Abraham simply believed God would fulfill his promise and it was counted as righteousness.

Israel, under the old covenant agreement, was required to obey all of the laws of Moses in order for God to bless them.

So we see, that the Abrahamic promises and old covenant are 2 different agreements. One was with Abraham and his offspring, who is Christ, the other was between God and the nation of Israel.
 
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ralliann

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It's always nice to find common ground.




It is not through works of the law, but through the righteousness of faith that Abraham and his descendants would be heir of the world.

Romans 4:13 For it was not through the law that Abraham and his descendants were promised that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.

I do not believe faith is a work. Faith is trusting that God's promises/righteous works will be fulfilled.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of what we hope for and the certainty of what we do not see.


When God confirmed the covenant with Abraham, only God passed through the halves of the carcasses. Abraham did not.

Genesis 15:10-21 So Abram brought all these to Him, split each of them down the middle, and laid the halves opposite each other. The birds, however, he did not cut. And the birds of prey descended on the carcasses, but Abram drove them away. As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and suddenly great terror and darkness overwhelmed him. Then the LORD said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not their own; they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years. But I will judge the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will depart with many possessions. You, however, will go to your fathers in peace and be buried at a ripe old age. In the fourth generation your descendants will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.” When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, behold, a smoking firepot and a flaming torch appeared and passed between the halves of the carcasses. On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land—from the river of Egypt to the great River Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites, and Jebusites.”

However, as told by Jeremiah, the Israelites themselves also passed through the halves of the carcasses as a confirmation that they would uphold their end of the old covenant agreement

Jeremiah 34:18 And those who have transgressed My covenant and have not fulfilled the terms of the covenant they made before Me, I will treat like the calf they cut in two in order to pass between its pieces

So we see that God made promises to Abraham. Abraham trusted God's word (faith which was accredited as righteousness). Only God passed through the halves of the carcasses at the promise confirmation, thus signifying that only God was the responsible party for the covenant. This was done prior to circumcision. Thus the unconditional promise came through Abraham's faith that God would fulfill His words.



This came after the promise had already been made.

Romans 4:9-10 Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited as righteousness. In what context was it credited? Was it after his circumcision, or before? It was not after, but before.

The promises made to Abraham were unconditional in that no righteous works were required on his end of the promise for God to uphold His word. Abraham simply believed God would fulfill his promise and it was counted as righteousness.

Israel, under the old covenant agreement, was required to obey all of the laws of Moses in order for God to bless them.

So we see, that the Abrahamic promises and old covenant are 2 different agreements. One was with Abraham and his offspring, who is Christ, the other was between God and the nation of Israel.
Again, if I am taking this thread off track just say so and I will stop. But this point interests me :).
Faith has works, as James says. But they are not works of the Sinai covenant. So I agree with you also on that point.

Spoken to Isaac

Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It is the oath that confirmed the covenant with Abraham. And it was because Abraham was proved to be faithful.

When God told Abraham to walk before him and be perfect, God was speaking of his actions, in that walk. The same is told to Isaac in this instance concerning his fathers obedience.

I believe the law Abraham kept was the law of faith. Noah also kept the same.
Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and
became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

This is the scripture that made me think like this....

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
God can change his mind (Repent). The priesthood according to the order of Aaron can change.....because the order of Aaron was without an oath. If everything God spoke were binding then there would be no need for him to bind himself by swearing an oath would there?




 
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claninja

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Again, if I am taking this thread off track just say so and I will stop. But this point interests me :).
Faith has works, as James says. But they are not works of the Sinai covenant. So I agree with you also on that point.

No problem at all. I would say these are very connected points.

Spoken to Isaac

Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

It is the oath that confirmed the covenant with Abraham. And it was because Abraham was proved to be faithful.

When God told Abraham to walk before him and be perfect, God was speaking of his actions, in that walk. The same is told to Isaac in this instance concerning his fathers obedience.

The promises given to Abraham and his offspring, prior to circumcision, are found in Genesis 12 and 15. We must remember that the offspring is Christ, as explained by Paul.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

At the confirmation of these promises to Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ), only God passed through the halves of the carcasses, while Abraham slept. This shows that only God, and not Abraham, was the responsible party for fulfilling the promises.

Genesis 15:12, 17 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and suddenly great terror and darkness overwhelmed him. When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, behold, a smoking firepot and a flaming torch appeared and passed between the halves of the carcasses.

If Abraham was required to perform works in order to receive the promises and blessings, he would have had something to boast about. But as it is, he simply believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness

Romans 4:1-2 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, has discovered? If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Thus, I would argue that faith is simply believing what God says is true and will be brought about. I would also argue that faith is not a work. Works are manifested from true faith. In other words, the simple act of faith results in obedience which results in works. Noah believed God and obeyed and built the ark. Abraham believed God and obeyed and left Ur, was circumcised, and was willing to sacrifice Isaac. The manifested works do not save but are a result of true belief.


So we see that God made unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ). And because Abraham was obedient as a result of his faith, God made these same unconditional promises with Isaac. Abraham's obedience or disobedience could not undo God's unconditional promises because the covenant's responsible party was solely God. But because of Abraham's obedience, these unconditional promises were then made with Isaac.

Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
God can change his mind (Repent). The priesthood according to the order of Aaron can change.....because the order of Aaron was without an oath. If everything God spoke were binding then there would be no need for him to bind himself by swearing an oath would there?

This is a very interesting point to bring up.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Was good health one of the conditional promises God would give Israel if they obeyed all 613 commandments under the old covenant agreement?
Only if you believe what some Christian groups [SDAs, MJs etc.] preach.........

Joel Osteen claims the OT dietary laws are still binding in the NT.
BrightCandle said:
Joel Osteen, the Evangelical Pastor of the largest Mega Church in North America, has exploded the popular Evangelical view that the dietary laws were done away with at the cross. He basically, takes the position that SDAs have had for over 100 years. You have to admire his courage for preaching this sermon in Houston, Texas, one of the most carnivorous cities in the North America.

Video link to unclean foods sermon:

YouTube - Joel Osteen on God's Food Laws
LittleLambofJesus said:
Why is the OP creating yet another J.O. thread? :confused:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7271170/
Joel Osteen promoting SDA health message!
Romans 14:14,15 Did Paul declare all foods clean?
Did Paul declare all foods clean?

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
G1033 (brma), occurs 17 times in 15 verses
1033. broma bro'-mah from the base of 977;
food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonially) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law:--meat, victuals

YoungLT]Romans 14:14 I have known and am persuaded in Lord Jesus that nothing unclean thru himself, except to the one accounting any being-unclean/koinon <2839> to be, to that one being-unclean/koinon <2839>.
[Genesis 9:33]
15 and if through victuals/brwma <1033> thy brother is grieved, no more dost thou walk according to love; do not with thy victuals destroy that one for whom Christ died.
16 Let not, then, your good be evil spoken of,
17 for the reign of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit;
.

Did Paul declare all food clean in Romans 14:14,15?
  1. Yes
    44 vote(s)
    61.1%
  2. No
    15 vote(s)
    20.8%
  3. *
    I am not sure
    4 vote(s)
    5.6%
  4. Other
    9 vote(s)
    12.5%
 
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ralliann

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No problem at all. I would say these are very connected points.



The promises given to Abraham and his offspring, prior to circumcision, are found in Genesis 12 and 15. We must remember that the offspring is Christ, as explained by Paul.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

At the confirmation of these promises to Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ), only God passed through the halves of the carcasses, while Abraham slept. This shows that only God, and not Abraham, was the responsible party for fulfilling the promises.
But scripture says
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: {confirmed … : Gr. interposed himself by }



Genesis 15:12, 17 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and suddenly great terror and darkness overwhelmed him. When the sun had set and darkness had fallen, behold, a smoking firepot and a flaming torch appeared and passed between the halves of the carcasses.

If Abraham was required to perform works in order to receive the promises and blessings, he would have had something to boast about. But as it is, he simply believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness

Romans 4:1-2 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, has discovered? If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Thus, I would argue that faith is simply believing what God says is true and will be brought about. I would also argue that faith is not a work. Works are manifested from true faith. In other words, the simple act of faith results in obedience which results in works. Noah believed God and obeyed and built the ark. Abraham believed God and obeyed and left Ur, was circumcised, and was willing to sacrifice Isaac. The manifested works do not save but are a result of true belief.
I believe you basically said the same as I did. I said faith has works.
You said
"In other words, the simple act of faith results in obedience which results in works"
But... Abrahams faith was not made complete until the sacrifice of Isaac.
What I mean is All Abraham was told in the second covenant, had not been given at the time of the first covenant.

What was God testing??
I believe it was his trust in the resurrection from the dead.
Read the first covenant of Genesis 15. God basically tells Abraham he is going to give Abraham heirs from his own loins. The heirs of this covenant are specifically from the fourth Generation on. Not Isaac, Jacob, or the twelve patriarchs. Abraham will be dead and buried by the time this covenant comes into effect.
Take note of verse 15
Gen 15:12 And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17 ¶ And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. {a burning … : Heb. a lamp of fire }
18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:


See Acts
7:2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
3 And said unto him, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and come into the land which I shall shew thee.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
5 And he gave him none inheritance in it, no, not so much as to set his foot on: yet he promised that he would give it to him for a possession, and to his seed after him, when as yet he had no child.
6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years.
7 And the nation to whom they shall be in bondage will I judge, said God: and after that shall they come forth, and serve me in this place.



So we see that God made unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring (who is Christ). And because Abraham was obedient as a result of his faith, God made these same unconditional promises with Isaac. Abraham's obedience or disobedience could not undo God's unconditional promises because the covenant's responsible party was solely God. But because of Abraham's obedience, these unconditional promises were then made with Isaac.
This is a very interesting point to bring up.
Swearing an oath made it immutable......The covenant of circumcision which is established in Isaac, a covenant of royal seed many nations etc.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

God was going to destroy the nation and make of Moses a great nation.
The first covenant was without an oath. The generation that came out of Egypt died disinherited in the wilderness. Their children went in with a very small remnant (Caleb, Joshua)

Ex 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
 
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claninja

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But scripture says
13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,
14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.
16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: {confirmed … : Gr. interposed himself by }


In one instance the author of Hebrews states the Abraham did obtain the promise

Hebrews 6:13-15 When God made His promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, He swore by Himself, saying, “I will surely bless you and multiply your descendants.” And so Abraham, after waiting patiently, obtained the promise.

in another instance, the author of Hebrews states that Abraham did not receive what was promised.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised

So what promise did Abraham obtain in his lifetime? I would argue the promise Abraham obtained after waiting patiently was his son Isaac.

Genesis 15:2-6 But Abram replied, “O Lord GOD, what can You give me, since I remain childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” Abram continued, “Behold, You have given me no offspring, so a servant in my household will be my heir.” Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one will not be your heir, but one who comes from your own body will be your heir.” And the LORD took him outside and said, “Now look to the heavens and count the stars, if you are able.” Then He told him, “So shall your offspring be.” Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Abraham did not do any righteous works in order to obtain the promise of an heir. Abraham simply believed that God would fulfill His promise, and this belief was credited as righteousness.

This is substantiated by only God, and not Abraham, passing through the halves of the carcasses at the confirmation of the promises in Genesis 15.

I believe you basically said the same as I did. I said faith has works.
You said
"In other words, the simple act of faith results in obedience which results in works"
But... Abrahams faith was not made complete until the sacrifice of Isaac.
What I mean is All Abraham was told in the second covenant, had not been given at the time of the first covenant.

I agree that Abraham's faith was made complete in his testing. What I am saying is that it is not because of Abraham's works that God would fulfill His promises to Abraham and his offspring (who is Jesus). However, what we do see in Genesis 26, is that because of Abraham's works, God then made the same promise that He had made with Abraham, with Isaac. In other words, it is not Abraham's works that constituted God fulfilling His promise, it is Abraham's works that resulted in God establishing the same promise with Jacob.

What was God testing??
I believe it was his trust in the resurrection from the dead.

I agree

God basically tells Abraham he is going to give Abraham heirs from his own loins. The heirs of this covenant are specifically from the fourth Generation on. Not Isaac, Jacob, or the twelve patriarchs. Abraham will be dead and buried by the time this covenant comes into effect.

Considering "heir" is singular I would say the heir in genesis 15:4 is in regards to Isaac and possibly foreshadowing Christ.

Genesis 15:4 Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one will not be your heir, but one who comes from your own body will be your heir

Swearing an oath made it immutable......The covenant of circumcision which is established in Isaac, a covenant of royal seed many nations etc.

17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

God was going to destroy the nation and make of Moses a great nation.
The first covenant was without an oath. The generation that came out of Egypt died disinherited in the wilderness. Their children went in with a very small remnant (Caleb, Joshua)

Ex 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

No disagreements here.
 
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ralliann

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In one instance the author of Hebrews states the Abraham did obtain the promise

Hebrews 6:13-15 When God made His promise to Abraham, since He had no one greater to swear by, He swore by Himself, saying, “I will surely bless you and multiply your descendants.” And so Abraham, after waiting patiently, obtained the promise.

in another instance, the author of Hebrews states that Abraham did not receive what was promised.

Hebrews 11:13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised

So what promise did Abraham obtain in his lifetime? I would argue the promise Abraham obtained after waiting patiently was his son Isaac.

Genesis 15:2-6 But Abram replied, “O Lord GOD, what can You give me, since I remain childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?” Abram continued, “Behold, You have given me no offspring, so a servant in my household will be my heir.” Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one will not be your heir, but one who comes from your own body will be your heir.” And the LORD took him outside and said, “Now look to the heavens and count the stars, if you are able.” Then He told him, “So shall your offspring be.” Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Abraham did not do any righteous works in order to obtain the promise of an heir. Abraham simply believed that God would fulfill His promise, and this belief was credited as righteousness.

This is substantiated by only God, and not Abraham, passing through the halves of the carcasses at the confirmation of the promises in Genesis 15.



I agree that Abraham's faith was made complete in his testing. What I am saying is that it is not because of Abraham's works that God would fulfill His promises to Abraham and his offspring (who is Jesus). However, what we do see in Genesis 26, is that because of Abraham's works, God then made the same promise that He had made with Abraham, with Isaac. In other words, it is not Abraham's works that constituted God fulfilling His promise, it is Abraham's works that resulted in God establishing the same promise with Jacob.



I agree



Considering "heir" is singular I would say the heir in genesis 15:4 is in regards to Isaac and possibly foreshadowing Christ.

Genesis 15:4 Then the word of the LORD came to him, saying, “This one will not be your heir, but one who comes from your own body will be your heir



No disagreements here.
There were two covenants made with Abraham. Genesis 15 speaks of the fourth generation.
Abraham was given the land in Genesis 17.
the covenant of circumcision concerned the royal seed. that is why it says he wasn't given the land, but after he patiently endured he received the promise of the land or rather I believe the kingdom in Genesis 17. This covenant was established in Isaac.
Ge 17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
Ge 17:16 And I will bless her, and give thee a son also of her: yea, I will bless her, and she shall be a mother of nations; kings of people shall be of her.

The Levites did not inherit with Israel, nor were they counted with them.
Nu 18:24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.
De 18:1 The priests the Levites, and all the tribe of Levi, shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel: they shall eat the offerings of the LORD made by fire, and his inheritance.
Jos 18:7 But the Levites have no part among you; for the priesthood of the LORD is their inheritance:




Priests, kings, and Prophets are all anointed ones (ie christs)

Abraham obeyed God. He did so because of faith.

Where are you getting that confimation is by passing through the pieces?
 
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claninja

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the covenant of circumcision concerned the royal seed. that is why it says he wasn't given the land, but after he patiently endured he received the promise of the land or rather I believe the kingdom

The only piece of land that Abraham owned in the promise land was the burial plots that he purchased (they were not given by God). According to Stephen, Abraham did not receive any land inheritance.

Acts 7:5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground.

The Levites did not inherit with Israel, nor were they counted with them.

I agree

Where are you getting that confimation is by passing through the pieces?

In ancient middle eastern cultures, when 2 parties would make a covenant, they would cut an animal in half and then both parties would walk through middle of the halves of the animal carcass. This indicated that both parties would uphold their end of the covenant.

However, in the case of the covenant between God and Abraham, God made Abraham fall asleep and only God passed through the halves of the carcass. This indicated that it was a unilateral covenant, with God as the sole responsible party
.
 
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ralliann

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The only piece of land that Abraham owned in the promise land was the burial plots that he purchased (they were not given by God). According to Stephen, Abraham did not receive any land inheritance.

Acts 7:5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground.
I take that as, the land Abraham was promised was not given in that covenant. Rather God promised him the land in the covenant of circumcision.
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

But clearly since Abraham would be dead by the time the first covenant came into effect, him and Isaac and Jacob must be raised to inherit this land.

Also while the covenant made concerning the natural seed was spoken of first, the covenant in Genesis 17 was in effect first. As Isaac was treated as an only son as an sole heir.

Gen 25:5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.







I agree



In ancient middle eastern cultures, when 2 parties would make a covenant, they would cut an animal in half and then both parties would walk through middle of the halves of the animal carcass. This indicated that both parties would uphold their end of the covenant.

However, in the case of the covenant between God and Abraham, God made Abraham fall asleep and only God passed through the halves of the carcass. This indicated that it was a unilateral covenant, with God as the sole responsible party
.[/QUOTE]
 
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claninja

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I take that as, the land Abraham was promised was not given in that covenant. Rather God promised him the land in the covenant of circumcision.
4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. {Abraham: that is, Father of a great multitude }
6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

The land was promised prior to the covenant of circumcision. It was promised unilaterally to Abraham and his seed.

Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your seed.” So Abram built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Genesis 15:7 The LORD also told him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess

Genesis 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your seed I have given this land

The seed in these verses is Christ. The promises (PLURAL) were to Abraham and his seed, the seed being Christ.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.

But clearly since Abraham would be dead by the time the first covenant came into effect, him and Isaac and Jacob must be raised to inherit this land.

I would agree.

Stephen confirms Abraham was given no inheritance of land, even though he was promised it.

Acts 7:5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground.

The author of Hebrews confirms that Abraham died before receiving the land promise

Hebrews 11:13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

Thus, just as Christ was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven, to sit at the right hand with all authority over heaven and earth (which includes the promised land), and to inherit the kingdom, I would argue So to do believers inherit the kingdom and co-heir with Christ at the resurrection and ascension to heaven.
 
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ralliann

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The land was promised prior to the covenant of circumcision. It was promised unilaterally to Abraham and his seed.

Genesis 12:7 Then the LORD appeared to Abram and said, “I will give this land to your seed.” So Abram built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Genesis 15:7 The LORD also told him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess

Genesis 15:18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your seed I have given this land

The seed in these verses is Christ. The promises (PLURAL) were to Abraham and his seed, the seed being Christ.

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say, “and to seeds,” meaning many, but “and to your seed,” meaning One, who is Christ.



I would agree.

Stephen confirms Abraham was given no inheritance of land, even though he was promised it.

Acts 7:5 He gave him no inheritance here, not even a foot of ground.

The author of Hebrews confirms that Abraham died before receiving the land promise

Hebrews 11:13 All these people died in faith, without having received the things they were promised. However, they saw them and welcomed them from afar. And they acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
As I spoke of before concerning an oath, apart from the oath there is no binding as to a promise. This seems to be where we see things differently. Plus we have this.. in Romans 4:
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }.
God had not yet made Abraham a father of many nations at that time, yet spoke as though he had. I think it is the same with the land. These things were not settled in covenant until genesis 15, and Genesis 17. For now I think the covenants distinguished between the inheritance to the natural seed, and the spiritual seed. And since a covenant once established cannot be added to, or subtracted from, the covenants are distinct. Maybe Jesus is a focus of both Him being both a natural seed as well as spiritual seed to Abraham? Maybe that is what it means here...
Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Ga 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Thus, just as Christ was raised from the dead and ascended to heaven, to sit at the right hand with all authority over heaven and earth (which includes the promised land), and to inherit the kingdom, I would argue So to do believers inherit the kingdom and co-heir with Christ at the resurrection and ascension to heaven.
I agree with this.
 
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claninja

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As I spoke of before concerning an oath, apart from the oath there is no binding as to a promise. This seems to be where we see things differently. Plus we have this.. in Romans 4:
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. {before him: or, like unto him }.
God had not yet made Abraham a father of many nations at that time, yet spoke as though he had. I think it is the same with the land. These things were not settled in covenant until genesis 15, and Genesis 17

The promises of land, his seed blessing the nations, and his seed becoming as many as the stars in the sky were given prior to the covenant of Circumcision. In Genesis 15, God himself walked through the halves of the carcasses signifying that He alone was the responsible party for the covenant.


Maybe Jesus is a focus of both Him being both a natural seed as well as spiritual seed to Abraham? Maybe that is what it means here...


I would argue this is the correct interpretation, for Jesus is both the natural and spiritual seed to whom the promises (plural) were made

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
Galatians 3:16 - Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 3:16 - English Standard Version
 
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