Who is responsible for our sanctification?

Wordkeeper

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You miss the point Paul was making. He was using their arguments to show that God wasn’t a man-made idol.
You said nowhere in Scripture does it say everybody is a child of God. I just exposed the ignorance of that statement.

Please stop parroting the teachings of church leaders both so called reformed and non reformed, since they are all basically hiding the truth, that might scare people away from church attendance.

Man up, and remove all the smoke-screens and obfuscation, and re-admit all the hard teachings, especially the possibility of losing salvation, that are taught. You are not here to win a popularity contest here, but approval from God, who has given you the training to clarify and interpret Scripture, an opportunity not many of us have had, to guide the flock, feed God's sheep. To whom much has been given, even more is expected.
 
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Aabbie James

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You said nowhere in Scripture does it say everybody is a child of God.
John makes it perfectly clear that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ is a "child of God" (i.e., believer/sinner saved).

Are all persons children of God? If you want an answer from some men, the answer is "Yes." If you want an answer from God (according to scripture), the answer is "No."

1 John 5:1 RSV Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child.
 
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Hammster

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From Eden on, God does not override the human will. Instead He takes the initiative; He coaxes and draws it into the light, but we can still prefer darkness.
So did Paul have it wrong?

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
— Romans 8:29
 
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Hammster

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1 John 5
16If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death.
???
 
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Hammster

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Of course I wasn't saying that. That is blasphemy in my opinion.

I think responsibility is the wrong word. A slight re-wording would make this thread less of a stumbling ground.

What is blasphemy? What does it mean to blaspheme? | GotQuestions.org g
"The fact is, every time we do or say something that gives others a false representation of the glory, holiness, authority, and character of God, we commit blasphemy. Every time we misrepresent our position as children of God, we are damaging His reputation. "

Our Perfect Father, is not responsible for our failures. He forgives us, covers us in His righteousness when we repent of evil, teaches us His ways, writes His commandments on our hearts. He enables us, empowers us, gives us all the good things in order to be sanctified.

However, in using the word responsible others may project, in error, that we are not responsible for our failures, they may, in error, blame the LORD. Speaking in terms of responsibilty (inadvertantly) causes blasphemy. It maligns our Father in Heaven.

We alone are responsible for our sin.

James 1:13
The question wasn’t who was responsible for our sin. It’s who is responsible for our sanctification.
 
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You said nowhere in Scripture does it say everybody is a child of God. I just exposed the ignorance of that statement.

Please stop parroting the teachings of church leaders both so called reformed and non reformed, since they are all basically hiding the truth, that might scare people away from church attendance.

Man up, and remove all the smoke-screens and obfuscation, and re-admit all the hard teachings, especially the possibility of losing salvation, that are taught. You are not here to win a popularity contest here, but approval from God, who has given you the training to clarify and interpret Scripture, an opportunity not many of us have had, to guide the flock, feed God's sheep. To whom much has been given, even more is expected.
You found a verse where Paul used their arguments against them.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
— John 1:12

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
— John 8:44
 
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Wordkeeper

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John makes it perfectly clear that everyone who believes Jesus is the Christ is a "child of God" (i.e., believer/sinner saved).

Are all persons children of God? If you want an answer from some men, the answer is "Yes." If you want an answer from God (according to scripture), the answer is "No."

1 John 5:1 RSV Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child.
But I showed the error of his statement: there is Scripture which says all men ARE God's children. Can't escape that FACT.
 
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Wordkeeper

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You found a verse where Paul used their arguments against them.

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
— John 1:12

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
— John 8:44
Nobody was arguing. Paul remembered a teaching they believed in, and informed them of its commonality with Scripture, giving it as a reason why God was interested in Gentiles: they were His children too. They even acknowledged that it was true, in worshipping the Unknown God.

I already posted that the children of the devil were God's lost children, caught up in worldly ways. Those who were found, He gave them the right to be called the children of God, again.

When Peter allowed his worldly nature to be revealed, Christ called him Satan. You don't think Peter stopped being a child of God at that point, do you?
 
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martymonster

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Who is responsible for our sanctification?

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
— Romans 8:29

So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
— Philippians 2:12-13

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.
— 1 Corinthians 15:10

Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
— Hebrews 13:20-21


Well, this is talking about God's elect, then about the "Many" as in, "Many" are called, but few are chosen. The "Few" are God's elect. The "Many" are those that call themselves by his name, but have their own doctrines. The elect are the first fruits, but they are not his only fruits.

So to answer your question, Yes, God does predestine those who he foreknew, and he will complete that which he has started.
 
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Oldmantook

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It never says that they lost their salvation. That’s why they were still brethren.
You make an argument from silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. They turned to follow another gospel. What does that mean?? If a Christian turns to follow Buddhism, is he still a Christian? Yes or No? In order to turn to follow something else, one must be following the gospel to begin with. Shall I await your response?
 
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Aabbie James

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But I showed the error of his statement: there is Scripture which says all men ARE God's children. Can't escape that FACT.
Perhaps you misunderstand Paul's intent, because Paul quotes from a couple of the Greek poets of their day. These quotes were designed to qualify the truth in what he was saying in order to make it more palatable to them.

Paul was teaching them that people are God's offspring in the sense they have all been created in His image as creator. That's quite different than "Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child."

Do you recognize the difference?
 
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fhansen

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So did Paul have it wrong?

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
— Romans 8:29
I know, right? He makes this one little cryptic statement and then leaves us hanging-no expounding or clarifying. The Church has given a great deal of thought to this whole matter, however, via theologians, and hasn't resolved the 'man's will vs God's sovereignty' dilemma completely except to say that God, existing in eternity and knowing all events in their "immediacy" uses our choices to determine "election". Not quite a strict deterministic model there and far better than the alternative in any case.
 
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Wordkeeper

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Perhaps you misunderstand Paul's intent, because Paul quotes from a couple of the Greek poets of their day. These quotes were designed to qualify the truth in what he was saying in order to make it more palatable to them.

Paul was teaching them that people are God's offspring in the sense they have all been created in His image as creator. That's quite different than "Every one who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God, and every one who loves the parent loves the child."

Do you recognize the difference?
The best way to put things into context is to express the idea the way modern writers would express it.

For example, when the original writer says someone is a son of the devil, what he means is that the person is the product of his decision to let his worldly nature have primacy in his life.

Why did the ancients personalise the worldly nature, call it the devil? To assign responsibility, maybe even acknowledge good acts, and reward it, with recognition of it, or justification, or bad, and pass judgment.

That's why Paul says that while he serves God with his (redeemed) mind, which is seated with Christ in high places, he finds a different force in action, in his yet to be redeemed body. It is not he who sins, but Mr Sin. He is talking about his worldly nature.

The writers of Scripture did not only personalise the worldly nature, the blind and thoughtless drive, seen in its vicious overrunning of competitors, for life preserving resources, but also the thoughtful one. Wisdom is seen as a woman, whose work, children, will be prove her to be right. That's two instances of personalisation right there, a very common Jewish literary device.

But why did the writers call the worldly nature as Sin? Other creatures in nature also have this selfish gene, competing with other species, and sometimes with their own species. Baby sharks eat their siblings in the womb, yet no one calls them sinners. A tiger escapes from a zoo and kills a passerby, but isn't put on trial and punished. How is it their acts are not crimes or sin, and human acts of striving for survival are? It is because of the principle of culpability. Men know good from evil. They are competent.

So when a text says:

1 John 3
8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.


The modern writer will put it this way:

The one who practices sin is allowing himself to be a product of his worldly nature, because the worldly nature has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the worldly nature.

Don't forget, this selfish gene is the engine for the survival of all forms of life. If there were no drives, no pleasure derived from satisfying hunger, how will any species grow and reproduce? But it does almost acquire a life of its own, even using reason and logic, to lie that it's the only option. Read how it interacts with Eve and with Christ. We are ourselves familiar with the arguments we have with it in our daily lives. Who needs the devil, when we have a personal live in scrounge, who is always advocating the easy, broader path. However, it forgets about the involvement of God in the decision to be selfless.

Luke 7
35"Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

Isaiah 11
8The infant will play by the cobra's den, and the toddler will reach into the viper's nest.

Isaiah 65
25The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the food of the serpent will be dust. They will do no harm nor destruction on all My holy mountain," says the LORD
.

As for the difference between the universality of all men being created in God's image and some men being special by virtue of loving Christ, I think Paul is simply saying that his listeners also were part of the unconditional concern God had, being his children, supported by their own wise men. He never denies that truth, it would be counterproductive to support non Scriptural ideas, and that truth is seen in the teaching that all men are created in that image, supports the idea strongly that all men are indeed sons of God, like Adam.
 
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sdowney717

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The best way to put things into context is to express the idea the way modern writers would express it.

For example, when the original writer says someone is a son of the devil, what he means is that the person is the product of his decision to let his worldly nature have primacy in his life.

Why did the ancients personalise the worldly nature, call it the devil? To assign responsibility, maybe even acknowledge good acts, and reward it, with recognition of it, or justification, or bad, and pass judgment.

That's why Paul says that while he serves God with his (redeemed) mind, which is seated with Christ in high places, he finds a different force in action, in his yet to be redeemed body. It is not he who sins, but Mr Sin. He is talking about his worldly nature.

The writers of Scripture did not only personalise the worldly nature, the blind and thoughtless drive, seen in its vicious overrunning of competitors, for life preserving resources, but also the thoughtful one. Wisdom is seen as a woman, whose work, children, will be prove her to be right. That's two instances of personalisation right there, a very common Jewish literary device.

But why did the writers call the worldly nature as Sin? Other creatures in nature also have this selfish gene, competing with other species, and sometimes with their own species. Baby sharks eat their siblings in the womb, yet no one calls them sinners. A tiger escapes from a zoo and kills a passerby, but isn't put on trial and punished. How is it their acts are not crimes or sin, and human acts of striving for survival are? It is because of the principle of culpability. Men know good from evil. They are competent.

So when a text says:

1 John 3
8The one who practices sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil.


The modern writer will put it this way:

The one who practices sin is allowing himself to be a product of his worldly nature, because the worldly nature has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the worldly nature.

Don't forget, this selfish gene is the engine for the survival of all forms of life. If there were no drives, no pleasure derived from satisfying hunger, how will any species grow and reproduce? But it does almost acquire a life of its own, even using reason and logic, to lie that it's the only option. Read how it interacts with Eve and with Christ. We are ourselves familiar with the arguments we have with it in our daily lives. Who needs the devil, when we have a personal live in scrounge, who is always advocating the easy, broader path. However, it forgets about the involvement of God in the decision to be selfless.

Luke 7
35"Yet wisdom is vindicated by all her children."

Isaiah 11
8The infant will play by the cobra's den, and the toddler will reach into the viper's nest.

Isaiah 65
25The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but the food of the serpent will be dust. They will do no harm nor destruction on all My holy mountain," says the LORD
.

As for the difference between the universality of all men being created in God's image and some men being special by virtue of loving Christ, I think Paul is simply saying that his listeners also were part of the unconditional concern God had, being his children, supported by their own wise men. He never denies that truth, it would be counterproductive to support non Scriptural ideas, and that truth is seen in the teaching that all men are created in that image, supports the idea strongly that all men are indeed sons of God, like Adam.
Absolutely not all are children 'OF' God. To be one, you must be born again, to be 'Of' God, and not 'OF' the flesh.
Man was made in the image of God in this current creation, but that does not mean God has adopted all of them into His family to be His child.

Romans 8:15
For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 8:23
Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Romans 9:4
who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Galatians 4:5
to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
 
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sdowney717

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The children of God, God gave to Christ, He entrusted them to the care of His Son, the great shepherd of the sheep. And none of them is lost. Christ goes and finds all His lost sheep and brings them back to Himself rejoicing, saying I have found my sheep which was lost, and all the heavenly angels also rejoice with Him, he cares for the lost sheep and wont abandon any of their souls to hell.

Hebrews 2, God sanctifies His children, gives them to Christ forgiving them of all their sins as only they have the blood atonement of sprinkling of Christ's blood as only they are members of the New Covenant family of God. IT is only for them He foreknew in a relationship of great love that He aids to salvation. That is what this is about here, the children of God, not those who are of the world.

10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 saying:

“I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.”

13 And again:

“I will put My trust in Him.”

And again:

Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.”

14 Inasmuch then as the (these) children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.

Only the believer in Christ is also His brethren.
 
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Hammster

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I already posted that the children of the devil were God's lost children, caught up in worldly ways. Those who were found, He gave them the right to be called the children of God, again.

Why are we adopted if we are already His children?
 
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Hammster

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You make an argument from silence which is the weakest form of argumentation. They turned to follow another gospel. What does that mean?? If a Christian turns to follow Buddhism, is he still a Christian? Yes or No? In order to turn to follow something else, one must be following the gospel to begin with. Shall I await your response?
You’re the one making the argument from silence. I actually addressed the text in three points. One, he call God “our God”. Two, he NEVER said that they lost their salvation. Three, he called them brethren.

That’s not silence.
 
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I know, right? He makes this one little cryptic statement and then leaves us hanging-no expounding or clarifying. The Church has given a great deal of thought to this whole matter, however, via theologians, and hasn't resolved the 'man's will vs God's sovereignty' dilemma completely except to say that God, existing in eternity and knowing all events in their "immediacy" uses our choices to determine "election". Not quite a strict deterministic model there and far better than the alternative in any case.
That’s not a cryptic statement. It’s about as unambiguous as it comes. Plus, it’s he says the same thing in other ways elsewhere. Just reread the OP.
 
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