The time when I nearly fell to Buddhism.

ananda said:

I agree! I haven't heard any of the original speakers for myself.

The books in the Bible you're trusting were written and translated by men, so therefore it stands to reason that one should not trust in them because "cursed is the man who trust in man".

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Yes . That is correct and it applies to myself as well . I do not have hope in myself . I am prone to error and knowing the life I have led , I have often made bad choices ...though I was often "the toast of the town " as they say . So , I know how easy it is to be wrong and how freeing it is to be open to being wrong . If any man think he can not be deceived , he probably already is .
I do believe in revelation and the concept of history repeating itself . I believe we can be given understanding from outside ourselves which often contradicts a "societal or culturally accepted point of view . " There is a repeated theme in christian history which often mirrors jewish history . And that is the story of zealous people failing to follow their own beliefs and persecuting those who do .
You have heard that history is written by the victors . I guess one of the exceptions is the old testament where the writers described their own people's failures to understand and to faithfully demonstrate the deity they claimed as their own . It often happens as a result of politics married to religion or maybe ignorance . I do not know . In Isaiah's days ( and Micah ) as well as when Christ walked , it was the religious leaders in agreement with people of wealth /influence which led people astray . So , how do I know my understandings/observations have a fair chance of being true ? They are repetition of things which happened before in Nineveh ( book of Nahum ) and the prophesied falling away seems to have taken place . Many of the people of the US have gained the whole world but seem to have lost their soul. ( Not that the US was ever "godly" . ) These things are forecast . Things such as people turning people into merchandise ...evil men and seducers deceiving and being deceived ( I believe this refers to religious people for it would make no sense to write to people who would never read it . )
The level of deception of the "solution providers " is amazing . This agrees with Isaiah ..Those who lead you cause you to err . As I mentioned , having come from advertising ..I know that most of the dollars are spent influencing women and children ( who lead men . ) The vanity of the fashion industry ( which turns women into objects of desire ) The superhero industry ( which paints unrealistic pictures for children ) The holiday industry ( which often packs churches and restaurants . ) All of this gives me assurance that the gospel writers knew what they were talking about . A form of religion but no truth . Read it for yourself .

NeedyFollower said:

Yes . That is correct and it applies to myself as well . I do not have hope in myself . I am prone to error and knowing the life I have led , I have often made bad choices ...though I was often "the toast of the town " as they say . So , I know how easy it is to be wrong and how freeing it is to be open to being wrong . If any man think he can not be deceived , he probably already is .
I do believe in revelation and the concept of history repeating itself . I believe we can be given understanding from outside ourselves which often contradicts a "societal or culturally accepted point of view . " There is a repeated theme in christian history which often mirrors jewish history . And that is the story of zealous people failing to follow their own beliefs and persecuting those who do .
You have heard that history is written by the victors . I guess one of the exceptions is the old testament where the writers described their own people's failures to understand and to faithfully demonstrate the deity they claimed as their own . It often happens as a result of politics married to religion or maybe ignorance . I do not know . In Isaiah's days ( and Micah ) as well as when Christ walked , it was the religious leaders in agreement with people of wealth /influence which led people astray . So , how do I know my understandings/observations have a fair chance of being true ? They are repetition of things which happened before in Nineveh ( book of Nahum ) and the prophesied falling away seems to have taken place . Many of the people of the US have gained the whole world but seem to have lost their soul. ( Not that the US was ever "godly" . ) These things are forecast . Things such as people turning people into merchandise ...evil men and seducers deceiving and being deceived ( I believe this refers to religious people for it would make no sense to write to people who would never read it . )
The level of deception of the "solution providers " is amazing . This agrees with Isaiah ..Those who lead you cause you to err . As I mentioned , having come from advertising ..I know that most of the dollars are spent influencing women and children ( who lead men . ) The vanity of the fashion industry ( which turns women into objects of desire ) The superhero industry ( which paints unrealistic pictures for children ) The holiday industry ( which often packs churches and restaurants . ) All of this gives me assurance that the gospel writers knew what they were talking about . A form of religion but no truth . Read it for yourself .

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Why would an omniscient, omnipotent being choose to reveal itself via secret revelation or prophecy to a specific, special class or group(s) of people (e.g. tribe, kingdom, nation, priesthood, magesterium, etc.)? The clear implication & conclusion of that position is this:

• there are other people(s) - the "commoners" or outsiders - that are not privy to that divinely revealed secret knowledge;
• that secret knowledge presumably needs to be communicated to the outsiders;
• that communication must be done through human means, and
• any human means of communication (human language, translation, etc.) subjects that message to misunderstanding, misinterpretation, loss (through time, decay of manuscripts, etc.), etc.

Is it not more reasonable to suggest that any truly transcendent "message" - if it could be called that - would be integrated into reality itself, say, in its governing laws which are immanent throughout the known universe, time, and space, equally and directly accessible and observable to all?

The two positions are one of the main differences between mainstream Christianity (& most theisic religions) vs early Buddhism: Revelation (esoteric secrets) vs Universalism (exoteric knowledge).

ananda said:

Why would an omniscient, omnipotent being choose to reveal itself via secret revelation or prophecy to a specific, special class or group(s) of people (e.g. tribe, kingdom, nation, priesthood, magesterium, etc.)? The clear implication & conclusion of that position is this:

• there are other people(s) - the "commoners" or outsiders - that are not privy to that divinely revealed secret knowledge;
• that secret knowledge presumably needs to be communicated to the outsiders;
• that communication must be done through human means, and
• any human means of communication (human language, translation, etc.) subjects that message to misunderstanding, misinterpretation, loss (through time, decay of manuscripts, etc.), etc.

Is it not more reasonable to suggest that any truly transcendent "message" - if it could be called that - would be integrated into reality itself, say, in its governing laws which are immanent throughout the known universe, time, and space, equally and directly accessible and observable to all?

The two positions are one of the main differences between mainstream Christianity (& most theisic religions) vs early Buddhism: Revelation (esoteric secrets) vs Universalism (exoteric knowledge).

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I am not unaware of these same questions and the resultant conclusions and implications having asked them myself . But your entirely reasonable suggestion of integrating a truly transcendent message leaves out the problem we face which is humans. I mean there certainly appears to be something to the concept of a fallen nature ...You know ? If that is the case , I think it reasonable that we do in fact need a Savior . That solves a few problems . It puts us ALL in the same boat . That should humble me . Makes me cleave to my Heavenly Father . Me and Hitler . Lost and Lost . That also solves the problem of me knowing what forgiveness is ...not speculatively or intellectually but truly . Now I also know what love is ..I mean real love . The kind that does not need love in return
I am also aware of the dangers of that position and how it manifested itself throughout the history of what we call mainstream christiainty ....with the priesthood controlling what is considered orthodox and what is considered heretical . I am aware that revelation and "special knowledge or insight " smacks of Gnosticism and is found in many smaller belief groups . I guess christian belief that God manifested Himself to a monotheistic group of God -fearers founded by a single man named Abraham is ridiculous unless He did . In which case it is not. I use "if-then" to explore an unknown . If God so chose to give an illustration of taking something which did not exist , ( a very, very distinct people for His express purpose ) and making them a "tribe" from one , then why not the Jews ? And if God thought it wise to put on human flesh and humble Himself and demonstrate sacrificial love to those people knowing He would be rejected , then what He did demonstrates that divine love is not quid pro quo . There is of course an enemy who has to be dealt with . And this enemy knows scripture and knows law . The enemy is a "law" guy but knows no mercy , love or patience . All "tree of knowledge of good and evil" . And brother , regarding "special knowledge " ...this knowledge is not special . It is all there but apparently like many natural laws , it is not accessible to us when we are proud and mighty ..for we are too full of ourselves to receive anything truly beautiful . And this brother , is why we are going further away from faith and love and God . No humility which is the result of our emphasis on knowledge . Children ( most school teachers are very, very young ) are teaching our children and parents are MIA .
This should be obvious but why is it not ? " If our gospel is hidden , it is hidden to those who perish , who the god of this world has blinded their hearts and their minds . "
So why were things done the way they were ? We think like the mortals that we are .

NeedyFollower said:

I am not unaware of these same questions and the resultant conclusions and implications having asked them myself . But your entirely reasonable suggestion of integrating a truly transcendent message leaves out the problem we face which is humans. I mean there certainly appears to be something to the concept of a fallen nature ...You know ? If that is the case , I think it reasonable that we do in fact need a Savior . That solves a few problems . It puts us ALL in the same boat . That should humble me . Makes me cleave to my Heavenly Father . Me and Hitler . Lost and Lost . That also solves the problem of me knowing what forgiveness is ...not speculatively or intellectually but truly . Now I also know what love is ..I mean real love . The kind that does not need love in return
I am also aware of the dangers of that position and how it manifested itself throughout the history of what we call mainstream christiainty ....with the priesthood controlling what is considered orthodox and what is considered heretical . I am aware that revelation and "special knowledge or insight " smacks of Gnosticism and is found in many smaller belief groups . I guess christian belief that God manifested Himself to a monotheistic group of God -fearers founded by a single man named Abraham is ridiculous unless He did . In which case it is not. I use "if-then" to explore an unknown . If God so chose to give an illustration of taking something which did not exist , ( a very, very distinct people for His express purpose ) and making them a "tribe" from one , then why not the Jews ? And if God thought it wise to put on human flesh and humble Himself and demonstrate sacrificial love to those people knowing He would be rejected , then what He did demonstrates that divine love is not quid pro quo . There is of course an enemy who has to be dealt with . And this enemy knows scripture and knows law . The enemy is a "law" guy but knows no mercy , love or patience . All "tree of knowledge of good and evil" . And brother , regarding "special knowledge " ...this knowledge is not special . It is all there but apparently like many natural laws , it is not accessible to us when we are proud and mighty ..for we are too full of ourselves to receive anything truly beautiful . And this brother , is why we are going further away from faith and love and God . No humility which is the result of our emphasis on knowledge . Children ( most school teachers are very, very young ) are teaching our children and parents are MIA .
This should be obvious but why is it not ? " If our gospel is hidden , it is hidden to those who perish , who the god of this world has blinded their hearts and their minds . "
So why were things done the way they were ? We think like the mortals that we are .

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Those are many "if's".

What if God manifested himself as Zeus, and chose the Greeks as his distinct people? or Allah, and the Arabs? or Brahma, and the Brahmins? Etc. It would be ridulous ... unless he did.

The argument you propose applies equally to any other special group of people, which would validate them as the chosen ones, with a special message.

ananda said:

Those are many "if's".

What if God manifested himself as Zeus, and chose the Greeks as his distinct people? or Allah, and the Arabs? or Brahma, and the Brahmins? Etc. It would be ridulous ... unless he did.

The argument you propose applies equally to any other special group of people, which would validate them as the chosen ones, with a special message.

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OK ..I am buying it . What was the message of Zeus ? Of the greeks ? What is the purpose ? Democracy ? No , democracy ends up by everyone being their own King . Wisdom of man ? I do not see where the parables of the Odyssey contain any meaningful wisdom as it relates to our purpose , nor a divine revelation of the One Lord which minimally parallels the fact that we have one earthly father .
What is the message of Allah ? I am not unfamiliar with the Quran . It contains portions of writings which are from the infancy gospel of thomas and contain stories of Jesus as a boy giving life to clay birds . These stories were circulating by the second century but not understood to be true nor informative in any meaningful way . No doubt Mohammad heard these stories by the 600's. Also , whereas Mary is held to be a virgin in the Quran , No explanation is given as to who his father is excepting to say that God does not have a son . It does not add up ..for me anyway . Mohammad encountered a church already very corrupt by the time he was seeking .
Brahma and the Brahmins ? One God . One Father . I have a foundation for that understanding as do you .
What about prophecies ? Flour , Butter , Eggs , Sugar , Vanilla , etc. = cookies
Flour , Butter, Eggs , Sugar , Vanilla , etc. = cookies .
Flour , Butter , Eggs , Sugar , Vanilla , etc = Take a wild guess ? cookies ? You would be right . That is the purpose of biblical prophecies . When the bible says that their voices speak to us from the dust . What do you make of it . History speaking to us ..That is the purpose of a "people " . As were the days of Noah , so will be the days of return of the Son of man . Buying and selling , building and planting , marrying and giving in marriage ..until the flood came and took them all away . These things were written so we could know. People in Noah's day should have known that God would not allow things to continue the way they were going . It should have been obvious ..but it wasn't . It should be obvious . But it isn't.
Some religions put one to sleep because being awake is uncomfortable ...but necessary . Love is awake.

NeedyFollower said:

OK ..I am buying it . What was the message of Zeus ? Of the greeks ? What is the purpose ? Democracy ? No , democracy ends up by everyone being their own King . Wisdom of man ? I do not see where the parables of the Odyssey contain any meaningful wisdom as it relates to our purpose , nor a divine revelation of the One Lord which minimally parallels the fact that we have one earthly father .
What is the message of Allah ? I am not unfamiliar with the Quran . It contains portions of writings which are from the infancy gospel of thomas and contain stories of Jesus as a boy giving life to clay birds . These stories were circulating by the second century but not understood to be true nor informative in any meaningful way . No doubt Mohammad heard these stories by the 600's. Also , whereas Mary is held to be a virgin in the Quran , No explanation is given as to who his father is excepting to say that God does not have a son . It does not add up ..for me anyway . Mohammad encountered a church already very corrupt by the time he was seeking .
Brahma and the Brahmins ? One God . One Father . I have a foundation for that understanding as do you .

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Perhaps Zeus' message through the Greeks was salvation in the Elysium. Perhaps Allah's message was salvation in his heaven. Perhaps Brahma's message was salvation through union with him ... all perhaps ridiculous to many, "... unless he did".

What about prophecies ? Flour , Butter , Eggs , Sugar , Vanilla , etc. = cookies
Flour , Butter, Eggs , Sugar , Vanilla , etc. = cookies .
Flour , Butter , Eggs , Sugar , Vanilla , etc = Take a wild guess ? cookies ? You would be right . That is the purpose of biblical prophecies . When the bible says that their voices speak to us from the dust . What do you make of it . History speaking to us ..That is the purpose of a "people " . As were the days of Noah , so will be the days of return of the Son of man . Buying and selling , building and planting , marrying and giving in marriage ..until the flood came and took them all away . These things were written so we could know. People in Noah's day should have known that God would not allow things to continue the way they were going . It should have been obvious ..but it wasn't . It should be obvious . But it isn't.
Some religions put one to sleep because being awake is uncomfortable ...but necessary . Love is awake.

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I see no substance behind prophecies, because I wasn't there to hear them when they were first spoken, nor was I there to verify their supposed fulfillments. "Prophecy" is utterly unconvincing, to me.

I do agree with you that awaking is necessary, that is a primary teaching of the Lord Buddha.

ananda said:

Perhaps Zeus' message through the Greeks was salvation in the Elysium. Perhaps Allah's message was salvation in his heaven. Perhaps Brahma's message was salvation through union with him ... all perhaps ridiculous to many, "... unless he did".

I see no substance behind prophecies, because I wasn't there to hear them when they were first spoken, nor was I there to verify their supposed fulfillments. "Prophecy" is utterly unconvincing, to me.

I do agree with you that awaking is necessary, that is a primary teaching of the Lord Buddha.

Click to expand...

ananda said:

Perhaps Zeus' message through the Greeks was salvation in the Elysium. Perhaps Allah's message was salvation in his heaven. Perhaps Brahma's message was salvation through union with him ... all perhaps ridiculous to many, "... unless he did".

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The Greeks ...prized for their wisdom , the mother of Roman "culture " ..birthplace of aristocracy ...the city-state . The fore-runner of " honor " and the concept of " I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country . " Brother , do you really and truly believe what you are saying ? It appears to me anyway that you are just tossing about arguments which you yourself do not believe . I mean , honestly ...Is honesty a part of your awakening ? Is it ? And your answers that you give speak for themselves . Do you ponder the greek stories to see if they had answers to the why ?
Does Buddha teach that knowledge puffs up but love edifies ?
Greeks rejected the gospel because they were too smart ...too wise in their own eyes . Too superior . My how history repeats itself .

ananda said:

I see no substance behind prophecies, because I wasn't there to hear them when they were first spoken, nor was I there to verify their supposed fulfillments. "Prophecy" is utterly unconvincing, to me.

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Which prophecies do you not see being fulfilled ? So you only believe what living authors say since you were not there to hear if this is actually what they said ? I find that hard to believe ...Did the Buddha exist ? I suppose that he did but you nor I have ever heard him which is your give reason for not delving into prophecies to see if you can understand them .
The same with Jesus the Christ . But we have fairly reliable documents regarding both of their beliefs and their predecessors ..I mean as much as we are able . Judaism begat the belief and the biological birth of Jesus . Minimally a prophet and not militant ...nor was He known to be ambitious ...who said such things as " But the time is coming and now is that true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him . Why ? Because truth is important to the heavenly Father just as lies are important to the father of lies .

ananda said:

I do agree with you that awaking is necessary, that is a primary teaching of the Lord Buddha.

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Did the Buddha call himself Lord ? What is Lord ? How do you know ? And I do not need to remind you that you were not there to hear it .

Here is a prophecy if you will receive it . Men will be children in the last days . They will be led by women . They will have no understanding and be implacable . No humility is the result of implacability . Immaturity will reign . No discernment . Wealth and success will breed unthankfulness and unfaithfulness . No ability to repent for they will be gods in their own eyes . One of the scriptural references is " they will be without understanding " ...Not that they do not understand ...they are incapable of understanding .

This is based on prophecies already written that it appears from your words that you will not endeavor to see if they are true . Please , please be wise my friend ..not smart . Wise .

NeedyFollower said:

The Greeks ...prized for their wisdom , the mother of Roman "culture " ..birthplace of aristocracy ...the city-state . The fore-runner of " honor " and the concept of " I only regret that I have but one life to lose for my country . " Brother , do you really and truly believe what you are saying ? It appears to me anyway that you are just tossing about arguments which you yourself do not believe . I mean , honestly ...Is honesty a part of your awakening ? Is it ? And your answers that you give speak for themselves . Do you ponder the greek stories to see if they had answers to the why ?
... Greeks rejected the gospel because they were too smart ...too wise in their own eyes . Too superior . My how history repeats itself .

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I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, these cultures had their problems, as did the Israelites. Are you honestly claiming that the latter were perfect?

Does Buddha teach that knowledge puffs up but love edifies ?

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No. "Love" is a form of attachment & greed, and is not considered the highest good in Buddhism.

Which prophecies do you not see being fulfilled ? So you only believe what living authors say since you were not there to hear if this is actually what they said ? I find that hard to believe ...Did the Buddha exist ? I suppose that he did but you nor I have ever heard him which is your give reason for not delving into prophecies to see if you can understand them .
The same with Jesus the Christ . But we have fairly reliable documents regarding both of their beliefs and their predecessors ..I mean as much as we are able . Judaism begat the belief and the biological birth of Jesus . Minimally a prophet and not militant ...nor was He known to be ambitious ...who said such things as " But the time is coming and now is that true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him . Why ? Because truth is important to the heavenly Father just as lies are important to the father of lies .

Click to expand...

Do you believe that 1 Kings 22:23 speaks the truth? "Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."

I don't know whether or not these past authors told the truth or not. I only truly know what I know directly for myself. Whether the Buddha existed (as history portrays him) is irrelevant to the validity of the teachings of Buddhism.

Did the Buddha call himself Lord ? What is Lord ? How do you know ? And I do not need to remind you that you were not there to hear it .

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I don't know, but probably not, since it was unlikely he spoke English. Whether he called himself "Lord" is irrelevant to the fundamental teachings of Buddhism.

Here is a prophecy if you will receive it . Men will be children in the last days . They will be led by women . They will have no understanding and be implacable . No humility is the result of implacability . Immaturity will reign . No discernment . Wealth and success will breed unthankfulness and unfaithfulness . No ability to repent for they will be gods in their own eyes . One of the scriptural references is " they will be without understanding " ...Not that they do not understand ...they are incapable of understanding . This is based on prophecies already written that it appears from your words that you will not endeavor to see if they are true . Please , please be wise my friend ..not smart . Wise .

Click to expand...

This "prophecy" can be applied to many periods in alleged history; it is nothing new or particular to this age. Buddhism esteems wisdom above all else.

ananda said:

I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, these cultures had their problems, as did the Israelites. Are you honestly claiming that the latter were perfect?

No. "Love" is a form of attachment & greed, and is not considered the highest good in Buddhism.

Do you believe that 1 Kings 22:23 speaks the truth? "Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."

I don't know whether or not these past authors told the truth or not. I only truly know what I know directly for myself. Whether the Buddha existed (as history portrays him) is irrelevant to the validity of the teachings of Buddhism.

I don't know, but probably not, since it was unlikely he spoke English. Whether he called himself "Lord" is irrelevant to the fundamental teachings of Buddhism.

This "prophecy" can be applied to many periods in alleged history; it is nothing new or particular to this age. Buddhism esteems wisdom above all else.

Click to expand...

ananda said:

I'm not sure what your point is here. Yes, these cultures had their problems, as did the Israelites. Are you honestly claiming that the latter were perfect?

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No ..just the opposite . It would be "normal" for God to choose a perfect people but in order to give examples to later generations , he gave the law to a dysfunctional people to demonstrate error and grace . The Old covenant was about God's promise to Abraham for the whole world . That is why Jesus said " Abraham saw my day and was glad . " It was also to take a people that did not exist and to make them a people . It was not about who they were , it was about who God is . Unfortunately many eventually started thinking that being "God's chosen people" gave them, carte blanche . That is why John the Baptist had to scold them and say that God is able to raise up a people from the very stones ...in other words , get over yourselves and repent . This same error of thought seems to have infected those who follow Christ due to theologians .

ananda said:

No. "Love" is a form of attachment & greed, and is not considered the highest good in Buddhism.

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No ...Love and sacrifice are synonyms . Herein is Love , not that we loved God but He loved us . You are talking about a human kind of love . I am talking about the kind of love you experienced when you first realized that God loved you ..back when you were a christian .

ananda said:

Do you believe that 1 Kings 22:23 speaks the truth? "Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has spoken evil concerning you."
Yes ..he gave them what they wanted . It is the same today ...For this cause , God shall send them a strong delusion that they believe a lie for they received not a love for the truth.

I don't know whether or not these past authors told the truth or not. I only truly know what I know directly for myself. Whether the Buddha existed (as history portrays him) is irrelevant to the validity of the teachings of Buddhism.

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How do we know they are the teachings of Buddha and that there is a wheel or circle ?

ananda said:

I don't know, but probably not, since it was unlikely he spoke English. Whether he called himself "Lord" is irrelevant to the fundamental teachings of Buddhism.

Click to expand...

I do not think any of the true christians from the past would receive honor from men ...nor would they want churches named after them " St Paul's cathedral " etc. Jesus said to call no man master or even Rabbi . I think if Buddha had been truly humble , he would not wish to be addressed as anything other than brother .

ananda said:

This "prophecy" can be applied to many periods in alleged history; it is nothing new or particular to this age. Buddhism esteems wisdom above all else.

Click to expand...

Yes but not at the present levels . It pervades every level of society which even in my generation ( I am 59 ) , it was not so .
Then seek wisdom from someone much older than Buddha .
" My sheep who are lost are still my sheep . My sheep who are lost are still lost . "
Are you a Buddist who watches TV , goes to movies and entertainment ?

NeedyFollower said:

No ..just the opposite . It would be "normal" for God to choose a perfect people but in order to give examples to later generations , he gave the law to a dysfunctional people to demonstrate error and grace .

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This argument could apply just as well to the Greeks & Zeus, Romans & Jupiter, Arabs & Allah, Brahmins & Brahma, etc.

The Old covenant was about God's promise to Abraham for the whole world . That is why Jesus said " Abraham saw my day and was glad . " It was also to take a people that did not exist and to make them a people . It was not about who they were , it was about who God is . Unfortunately many eventually started thinking that being "God's chosen people" gave them, carte blanche . That is why John the Baptist had to scold them and say that God is able to raise up a people from the very stones ...in other words , get over yourselves and repent . This same error of thought seems to have infected those who follow Christ due to theologians ... I do not think any of the true christians from the past would receive honor from men ...nor would they want churches named after them " St Paul's cathedral " etc. Jesus said to call no man master or even Rabbi . I think if Buddha had been truly humble , he would not wish to be addressed as anything other than brother ... " My sheep who are lost are still my sheep . My sheep who are lost are still lost . "

Click to expand...

How can we know that these ideas are not the result of your LORD putting "a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets" (1 Kings 22:23)?

No ...Love and sacrifice are synonyms . Herein is Love , not that we loved God but He loved us . You are talking about a human kind of love . I am talking about the kind of love you experienced when you first realized that God loved you ..back when you were a christian .

Click to expand...

Sacrifice is not the highest good in Buddhism. The freedom and mastery gained from knowing for one's self is the highest good, as this transforms the individual towards greater skillfulness at the deepest levels.

How do we know they are the teachings of Buddha and that there is a wheel or circle ? ... Then seek wisdom from someone much older than Buddha .

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Theistic religions generally rely this line of reasoning: "Since the founder (Jesus, Mohammad, etc.) was surely the Anointed, we therefore conclude that his message must be followed." This is why belief in the authenticity of the founder is paramount in these religions, and must be defended to the nth degree. Their foundation of faith exists in the unverifiable past.

On the other hand early Buddhists like myself tend to reason "in reverse", e.g.: "After systematically, methodically, and personally testing the Eightfold Path in the here-and-now, and after gaining knowledge for one's self that it is effective and leads to Awakening, we therefore conclude that the founder of that Path must be Awakened (Buddha), whoever he/she/it may be." If the map is verifiable, the question of, or belief in, who made the map becomes mostly irrelevant. Our foundation of faith exists in the verifiable present.

The wheel is simply a symbol for the ongoing cycle of dependent origination.

Yes but not at the present levels . It pervades every level of society which even in my generation ( I am 59 ) , it was not so . ... Are you a Buddist who watches TV , goes to movies and entertainment ?

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It's been years since I've seen a movie, and weeks since I turned on the TV. I mostly read as a form of entertainment. Why do you ask?

ananda said:

This argument could apply just as well to the Greeks & Zeus, Romans & Jupiter, Arabs & Allah, Brahmins & Brahma, etc.

How can we know that these ideas are not the result of your LORD putting "a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets" (1 Kings 22:23)?

Sacrifice is not the highest good in Buddhism. The freedom and mastery gained from knowing for one's self is the highest good, as this transforms the individual towards greater skillfulness at the deepest levels.


Theistic religions generally rely this line of reasoning: "Since the founder (Jesus, Mohammad, etc.) was surely the Anointed, we therefore conclude that his message must be followed." This is why belief in the authenticity of the founder is paramount in these religions, and must be defended to the nth degree. Their foundation of faith exists in the unverifiable past.

On the other hand early Buddhists like myself tend to reason "in reverse", e.g.: "After systematically, methodically, and personally testing the Eightfold Path in the here-and-now, and after gaining knowledge for one's self that it is effective and leads to Awakening, we therefore conclude that the founder of that Path must be Awakened (Buddha), whoever he/she/it may be." If the map is verifiable, the question of, or belief in, who made the map becomes mostly irrelevant. Our foundation of faith exists in the verifiable present.

The wheel is simply a symbol for the ongoing cycle of dependent origination.

It's been years since I've seen a movie, and weeks since I turned on the TV. I mostly read as a form of entertainment. Why do you ask?

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ananda said:

This argument could apply just as well to the Greeks & Zeus, Romans & Jupiter, Arabs & Allah, Brahmins & Brahma, etc.

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Except those writings do not presuppose the purposes and demonstrations which prophecy foretold , is being fulfilled and will continue to fulfill itself until the end of all things .

ananda said:

How can we know that these ideas are not the result of your LORD putting "a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets" (1 Kings 22:23)?

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Again , prophecy foretold and fulfilled with archaeological evidences . The repetition of events and degeneration of man's ability to be sober minded verses childish .

ananda said:

Sacrifice is not the highest good in Buddhism. The freedom and mastery gained from knowing for one's self is the highest good, as this transforms the individual towards greater skillfulness at the deepest levels.

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If sacrifice is not the highest good in buddhism , then it is a notch below what Jesus taught and demonstrated . It just is . For self is our biggest idol . In our flesh is no good thing .
Buddhism sounds like humanism to me anyway as it must be if it leaves out the love of God . There is nothing new under the sun . But as one is prone to deception , how can one know thy self except it be revealed from one outside of self ?

ananda said:

Theistic religions generally rely this line of reasoning: "Since the founder (Jesus, Mohammad, etc.) was surely the Anointed, we therefore conclude that his message must be followed." This is why belief in the authenticity of the founder is paramount in these religions, and must be defended to the nth degree. Their foundation of faith exists in the unverifiable past.
Actually it is very , very verifiable unless one does not wish it to be in which case it is not , nor ever can be .

On the other hand early Buddhists like myself tend to reason "in reverse", e.g.: "After systematically, methodically, and personally testing the Eightfold Path in the here-and-now, and after gaining knowledge for one's self that it is effective and leads to Awakening, we therefore conclude that the founder of that Path must be Awakened (Buddha), whoever he/she/it may be." If the map is verifiable, the question of, or belief in, who made the map becomes mostly irrelevant. Our foundation of faith exists in the verifiable present.

Your foundation of faith or foundation of belief ? Faith and belief are different for many people believe or not believe many things . And it is verified in the present by personal peace but no reconciliation with your creator ? My faith and the truth of the words I read is also verified in the present because of the great falling away and ungodliness predicted to occur in the last days . The implacability of the people , the inability to comprehend . The calling evil good and good evil . No temperance in speech , attire or demeanor . Profanity flows like water from the mouths of "civilized "males and females alike . This has always been true of unbelievers but now ( as predicted in 2nd Timothy chapter 3 ) it is rampant in believers . Jeremiah also noted this just prior to the first destruction of Jerusalem . So again , very verifiable if someone wants truth ...if they have no love for the truth , then what ?

The wheel is simply a symbol for the ongoing cycle of dependent origination.

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ananda said:

It's been years since I've seen a movie, and weeks since I turned on the TV. I mostly read as a form of entertainment. Why do you ask?

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Well this is going to sound silly since it is so obvious but it only occured to me recently . Although I gave up TV 6 years ago so I could be free to pray , meditate and read history and sacred writings , it "dawned " on me that no one on TV knows I exist . ( This goes for TV evangelist too . ) Therefore they could care less if I lived or died . Why would I "spend " my time with that person . They do not care that I have children who are not on the path to life . No one gets to be on TV unless they are ambitious and ambitious people are by definition not humble . Psalms 1 says , Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly , nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful but makes his delight the law of the Lord and meditates on them day and night . "
It is proposed that viewing TV has a physiological affect on our brains ( and not for the good .) And these people are either actors ( not speaking truth ) or news casters who may speak truth but their words may cause others to hate . ( You may recall the story of Noah and how one son blabbed to the others how their dad was drunk . He "uncovered " his dads nakedness ...he did speak the truth , but not in love ..he should have covered up his dad like the other two sons ...so speaking the truth is not always good ...Motive is everything . Plus , I am told to redeem the time for the days are evil and I do not think it profitable . Lastly , I need to stay plugged into the vine . I wish you were .

NeedyFollower said:

Except those writings do not presuppose the purposes and demonstrations which prophecy foretold , is being fulfilled and will continue to fulfill itself until the end of all things . Again , prophecy foretold and fulfilled with archaeological evidences . The repetition of events and degeneration of man's ability to be sober minded verses childish .

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If "fulfilled prophecy" is all that is necessary to authenticate a deity, its people, and its religion, then the ancient Greeks, the Arabs, and the Brahmins, among others, qualify, according to their own testimony.

Fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate a deity. At most, it may suggest that there is a higher power at work, but it does not demand that we conclude that it originates from an infinite, omnipotent, or omniscient power.

If sacrifice is not the highest good in buddhism , then it is a notch below what Jesus taught and demonstrated . It just is . For self is our biggest idol . In our flesh is no good thing .
Buddhism sounds like humanism to me anyway as it must be if it leaves out the love of God . There is nothing new under the sun . But as one is prone to deception , how can one know thy self except it be revealed from one outside of self ?

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How would one know "revelation" except through self?

Well this is going to sound silly since it is so obvious but it only occured to me recently . Although I gave up TV 6 years ago so I could be free to pray , meditate and read history and sacred writings , it "dawned " on me that no one on TV knows I exist . ( This goes for TV evangelist too . ) Therefore they could care less if I lived or died . Why would I "spend " my time with that person . They do not care that I have children who are not on the path to life . No one gets to be on TV unless they are ambitious and ambitious people are by definition not humble . Psalms 1 says , Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the ungodly , nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful but makes his delight the law of the Lord and meditates on them day and night . "
It is proposed that viewing TV has a physiological affect on our brains ( and not for the good .) And these people are either actors ( not speaking truth ) or news casters who may speak truth but their words may cause others to hate . ( You may recall the story of Noah and how one son blabbed to the others how their dad was drunk . He "uncovered " his dads nakedness ...he did speak the truth , but not in love ..he should have covered up his dad like the other two sons ...so speaking the truth is not always good ...Motive is everything . Plus , I am told to redeem the time for the days are evil and I do not think it profitable . Lastly , I need to stay plugged into the vine . I wish you were .

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What is the highest good, in your opinion? That is, what is the highest goal you are seeking?

ananda said:

If "fulfilled prophecy" is all that is necessary to authenticate a deity, its people, and its religion, then the ancient Greeks, the Arabs, and the Brahmins, among others, qualify, according to their own testimony.

Fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate a deity. At most, it may suggest that there is a higher power at work, but it does not demand that we conclude that it originates from an infinite, omnipotent, or omniscient power.

How would one know "revelation" except through self?

What is the highest good, in your opinion? That is, what is the highest goal you are seeking?

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ananda said:

If "fulfilled prophecy" is all that is necessary to authenticate a deity, its people, and its religion, then the ancient Greeks, the Arabs, and the Brahmins, among others, qualify, according to their own testimony.

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The Ancient Greeks are certainly interesting and influence what is called " 1st World Countries " in ways that I am not sure we understand . Many of the Jews became "hellenized" as I am sure you recognize as being greek influenced . Also what is known as Christianity was influenced by greek thought and lifestyles adopted greek influence . ( The emphasis on the body ...gymnasiums , sports , hero worship , etc. ) Cap and Gown ...education ..the lecture that you may have sat through in college ...all greek . Not to mention " government by the people " which resulted in humanism . Did greece prophecy it's own demise ? You are familiar with the statue in Daniel ? The head of Gold being the strongest earthly kingdom representing Babylon and continuing weaker and weaker until it reaches the last kingdom standing before everything is destroyed ...the last part of the statue is the toes made of miry clay ( man) and iron . ( Government ) These do not stick together any more than a kingdom divided against itself can stand . Here in the US , we are experiencing the death throws of republican-democratic government . There are ( as you are aware ) , many , many biblical prophecies . The destruction of Jerusalem . The Babylon Captivity . The destruction of Nineveh . The destruction of Babylon . Not to mention the rejection of the new covenant by the Jews described in Isaiah ...the rejection of the messiah ..the fact that the messiah was ugly . The inclusion of us gentiles ( everyone not a jew ) ...and also of course the emasculation of men and the times we are living in where people will not have the ability to understand . I do not see a continuity of these type prophecies in any other religious tradition.
Jesus said , MANY shall come in His name and many false prophets and false teachers before the end . Wolves in sheep clothing . That is why an atheist is not a threat to my faith as much as a theologian .

ananda said:

Fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate a deity. At most, it may suggest that there is a higher power at work, but it does not demand that we conclude that it originates from an infinite, omnipotent, or omniscient power.

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I don't know. Maybe it does . " As it is written , I made you a father of many nations , in the presence of Him who he believed , even God , who gives life to the dead and calls those things which are not as though they were . " This is from Romans and refers to Abraham who did indeed became a father to many nations .

Also , in Isaiah 44 , God ask the question you just did ...Who else declares the former things and the future things and brings them to pass ? So whereas fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate a deity , it gives courage to those who know Him . He does not need to be authenticated nor acknowledged by his creation ...that is for the benefit of the creature .

ananda said:

How would one know "revelation" except through self?

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"Study to show thyself approved ...rightly dividing the word of truth . " ...also " Lean not to your own understanding ( which is a ancient Hebrew way of saying " Do not believe everything you think . " )
"If any man thinks he knows something , he knows nothing as he ought . " ...in other words ...self deception and delusion are historical realities .
So , how does one know revelation except through self ? Even the spirit of truth which comes from God . Seek and you shall find , knock and the door will be opened , ask and you shall be given ...I believe these things to be true but as you and I both agree , many religions have believed many things and have most often failed to demonstrate mercy , compassion and humbleness of mind.

ananda said:

What is the highest good, in your opinion? That is, what is the highest goal you are seeking?

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To live a life that reflects the love of God . To bring glory to Him . That people may know the one true God and Jesus Christ His Son. ...but I owe Him more than most . I was the living dead but was not aware . My position is not theological but actual . Brother , our God is good although fallen man is not .

NeedyFollower said:

The Ancient Greeks are certainly interesting and influence what is called " 1st World Countries " in ways that I am not sure we understand . Many of the Jews became "hellenized" as I am sure you recognize as being greek influenced . Also what is known as Christianity was influenced by greek thought and lifestyles adopted greek influence . ( The emphasis on the body ...gymnasiums , sports , hero worship , etc. ) Cap and Gown ...education ..the lecture that you may have sat through in college ...all greek . Not to mention " government by the people " which resulted in humanism . Did greece prophecy it's own demise ? You are familiar with the statue in Daniel ? The head of Gold being the strongest earthly kingdom representing Babylon and continuing weaker and weaker until it reaches the last kingdom standing before everything is destroyed ...the last part of the statue is the toes made of miry clay ( man) and iron . ( Government ) These do not stick together any more than a kingdom divided against itself can stand . Here in the US , we are experiencing the death throws of republican-democratic government . There are ( as you are aware ) , many , many biblical prophecies . The destruction of Jerusalem . The Babylon Captivity . The destruction of Nineveh . The destruction of Babylon . Not to mention the rejection of the new covenant by the Jews described in Isaiah ...the rejection of the messiah ..the fact that the messiah was ugly . The inclusion of us gentiles ( everyone not a jew ) ...and also of course the emasculation of men and the times we are living in where people will not have the ability to understand . I do not see a continuity of these type prophecies in any other religious tradition.
Jesus said , MANY shall come in His name and many false prophets and false teachers before the end . Wolves in sheep clothing . That is why an atheist is not a threat to my faith as much as a theologian .

I don't know. Maybe it does . " As it is written , I made you a father of many nations , in the presence of Him who he believed , even God , who gives life to the dead and calls those things which are not as though they were . " This is from Romans and refers to Abraham who did indeed became a father to many nations .

Also , in Isaiah 44 , God ask the question you just did ...Who else declares the former things and the future things and brings them to pass ? So whereas fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate a deity , it gives courage to those who know Him . He does not need to be authenticated nor acknowledged by his creation ...that is for the benefit of the creature .

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If fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate your deity, then how is it beneficial to quote prophecy to a non-believer?

"Study to show thyself approved ...rightly dividing the word of truth . " ...also " Lean not to your own understanding ( which is a ancient Hebrew way of saying " Do not believe everything you think . " )
"If any man thinks he knows something , he knows nothing as he ought . " ...in other words ...self deception and delusion are historical realities .
So , how does one know revelation except through self ? Even the spirit of truth which comes from God . Seek and you shall find , knock and the door will be opened , ask and you shall be given ...I believe these things to be true but as you and I both agree , many religions have believed many things and have most often failed to demonstrate mercy , compassion and humbleness of mind.

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Isn't "studying" an attempt to understand? What doesn't count as self-deception & delusion? Knowledge? Personal experience? Phenomenological experience?

To live a life that reflects the love of God . To bring glory to Him . That people may know the one true God and Jesus Christ His Son. ...but I owe Him more than most . I was the living dead but was not aware . My position is not theological but actual . Brother , our God is good although fallen man is not .

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Hypothetically speaking: if a deity promised an eternity of suffering for its follower, would you say it is reasonable for someone to continue following that deity & to continue to live a life which brings glory to his deity?

ananda said:

If fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate your deity, then how is it beneficial to quote prophecy to a non-believer?

Isn't "studying" an attempt to understand? What doesn't count as self-deception & delusion? Knowledge? Personal experience? Phenomenological experience?

Hypothetically speaking: if a deity promised an eternity of suffering for its follower, would you say it is reasonable for someone to continue following that deity & to continue to live a life which brings glory to his deity?

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ananda said:

If fulfilled prophecy does not authenticate your deity, then how is it beneficial to quote prophecy to a non-believer?

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Of course my hope is that a non believer will be given understanding verses a childhood tradition and theology. But indoctrination runs deep in both believers and non-believers. Truth is a form of mercy but if one chooses not to believe a warning and chooses "unbelief rather than belief " , what can one do ?
It is a good question ...the gospel is for believers because by definition , unbelievers will not believe .
Jesus gave that same illustration in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus ....If they do not hear Moses and the prophets , then neither will they believe if one be risen from the dead .
Apparently there is an unseen force called faith . I think it can be asked for . Certainly love can be requested in addition to all of the fruits of the spirit . But we are entering the end of the age of unbelief described in 2nd Timothy . Everyone will believe in the end but right now our hearts are too hard and we are too proud . It seems to me anyway that the god of this world has blinded both hearts and minds .

ananda said:

Isn't "studying" an attempt to understand? What doesn't count as self-deception & delusion? Knowledge? Personal experience? Phenomenological experience?

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Yes I do believe that studying is an attempt to understand although I do not know if we are any longer "geared " to understand deeply. Too much TV . Too much multi-tasking . It makes us a very shallow mind. If I tell believers to get rid of their TV's , you would think I assaulted them . We have been given too much "happily ever after " and too many vain romance novels , songs and movies .. I don't know brother . I am very concerned regarding the seriousness of believers .

I believe self-deception and delusion is only revealed by the spirit of God . God will not despise the person who has a broken and contrite heart . Knowledge which leads one to understand the delusion of a youth driven and outward appearance driven society is not a bad place to start . Then one can stop loving vain things and receive a love for true things . Personal experience and the experience of godless men in ancient Israel and the experience of godly and humble men .
I think phenomenological experience has value but it is easy to draw the wrong conclusions . ( For example when Saul was chasing King David and ended up in the cave where David was hiding , one of David's men exclaimed " God has delivered him into your hand ! Slay him ! ...But David saw that to do so was against the scriptures to not touch the Lord's anointed and it gave David a chance to show mercy when none was called for ....so for me anyway , this is the importance of knowing scripture in light of the mercy God has shown us and the beauty of the gospel that proclaims that there is none righteous , no ... not one . It demands mercy , patience and kindness to our enemies .

ananda said:

Hypothetically speaking: if a deity promised an eternity of suffering for its follower, would you say it is reasonable for someone to continue following that deity & to continue to live a life which brings glory to his deity?

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I can only speak for me . I deserve the lowest pits of Hell but I do not believe because of a fear of hell but rather because of God's goodness . I do not know what hell is although I do not think unbelievers will like heaven because there will not be anything to complain about . No railing against God's unfairness . No second guessing God on how He should have done things ...or rather , if I were God , I would do xyz . No , these are domains of God's enemy and his followers . The accuser he is called . A bit of an attorney it seems . The prosecuting attorney . Very smart fellow , Satan .

NeedyFollower said:

Of course my hope is that a non believer will be given understanding verses a childhood tradition and theology. But indoctrination runs deep in both believers and non-believers. Truth is a form of mercy but if one chooses not to believe a warning and chooses "unbelief rather than belief " , what can one do ?
It is a good question ...the gospel is for believers because by definition , unbelievers will not believe .
Jesus gave that same illustration in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus ....If they do not hear Moses and the prophets , then neither will they believe if one be risen from the dead .
Apparently there is an unseen force called faith . I think it can be asked for . Certainly love can be requested in addition to all of the fruits of the spirit . But we are entering the end of the age of unbelief described in 2nd Timothy . Everyone will believe in the end but right now our hearts are too hard and we are too proud . It seems to me anyway that the god of this world has blinded both hearts and minds .

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There are warnings, gospels, parables, resurrections, faith, fruit, etc. found in other religious traditions as well.

Yes I do believe that studying is an attempt to understand although I do not know if we are any longer "geared " to understand deeply. Too much TV . Too much multi-tasking . It makes us a very shallow mind. If I tell believers to get rid of their TV's , you would think I assaulted them . We have been given too much "happily ever after " and too many vain romance novels , songs and movies .. I don't know brother . I am very concerned regarding the seriousness of believers .

I believe self-deception and delusion is only revealed by the spirit of God . God will not despise the person who has a broken and contrite heart . Knowledge which leads one to understand the delusion of a youth driven and outward appearance driven society is not a bad place to start . Then one can stop loving vain things and receive a love for true things . Personal experience and the experience of godless men in ancient Israel and the experience of godly and humble men .
I think phenomenological experience has value but it is easy to draw the wrong conclusions . ( For example when Saul was chasing King David and ended up in the cave where David was hiding , one of David's men exclaimed " God has delivered him into your hand ! Slay him ! ...But David saw that to do so was against the scriptures to not touch the Lord's anointed and it gave David a chance to show mercy when none was called for ....so for me anyway , this is the importance of knowing scripture in light of the mercy God has shown us and the beauty of the gospel that proclaims that there is none righteous , no ... not one . It demands mercy , patience and kindness to our enemies .

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There are many scriptures to study, from all the religions of the world.

I can only speak for me . I deserve the lowest pits of Hell but I do not believe because of a fear of hell but rather because of God's goodness . I do not know what hell is although I do not think unbelievers will like heaven because there will not be anything to complain about . No railing against God's unfairness . No second guessing God on how He should have done things ...or rather , if I were God , I would do xyz . No , these are domains of God's enemy and his followers . The accuser he is called . A bit of an attorney it seems . The prosecuting attorney . Very smart fellow , Satan .

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Does that mean you would be okay with an eternal life filled with eternal suffering?

ananda said:

There are warnings, gospels, parables, resurrections, faith, fruit, etc. found in other religious traditions as well.
There are many scriptures to study, from all the religions of the world.
Does that mean you would be okay with an eternal life filled with eternal suffering?

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ananda said:

There are warnings, gospels, parables, resurrections, faith, fruit, etc. found in other religious traditions as well.

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But there is only one gospel with a continuous thread from the beginning of a predicted new covenant which started with "a" people but will encompass all people . Only one good news who proclaims all guilty that all may be forgiven . No other gospel which makes prophecies which predicts the apostasy of Christians which also mirrors the earlier apostasy of the Jews . They sacrificed their children to Baal so they could have good crops . We have sacrificed our children to the world so we could pursue careers ..in other words , STUFF .
Of course humanism was always a problem because of the pride of man . Our hearts by nature will not kneel down . As it says in Psalms 9 :19 -20 Arise Oh Lord , Let not MAN prevail ; let the heathen be judged in thy sight . Put them in fear Oh Lord, that the nations learn that they be but MEN .

ananda said:

There are many scriptures to study, from all the religions of the world.

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Yes and only the gospel draws from the old covenant and creates something new ...actually many things new .

ananda said:

Does that mean you would be okay with an eternal life filled with eternal suffering?

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Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? " Says the Lord God and not that he should turn from his ways and live ?
And Paul says with tears in Philippians 3 :18 that many are the enemies of the cross of Christ whose end is destruction ...Paul says it with tears ...showing that he has the spirit of Christ . When Jesus wept over Jerusalem , He said ..How often did I want to gather you as a hen covers her chicks with her wings and YOU WOULD NOT .
So , am ok with anyone suffering ? No . That is why Jesus says to compel them to come in . To plead ..to beg ..but most will not . That is also why Jesus said that whoever is not with us is against us and whosoever does not gather , scatters . It is like some people are for death . And the enemy of eternal life knowing that his time is short , is giving it all he has . Thus the increase in distractions , media entertainment , etc.
Regarding me personally of an eternal life filled with eternal separation ( suffering ) from the one I love ? No but do not forget that this is not about me , nor you . This is about God and His children . No more rebellions . Man thinks too highly of himself and can not think clearly . Even unbelievers subconsciously think they deserve heaven but are not aware .

NeedyFollower said:

But there is only one gospel with a continuous thread from the beginning of a predicted new covenant which started with "a" people but will encompass all people . Only one good news who proclaims all guilty that all may be forgiven . No other gospel which makes prophecies which predicts the apostasy of Christians which also mirrors the earlier apostasy of the Jews . They sacrificed their children to Baal so they could have good crops . We have sacrificed our children to the world so we could pursue careers ..in other words , STUFF .
Of course humanism was always a problem because of the pride of man . Our hearts by nature will not kneel down . As it says in Psalms 9 :19 -20 Arise Oh Lord , Let not MAN prevail ; let the heathen be judged in thy sight . Put them in fear Oh Lord, that the nations learn that they be but MEN ... Yes and only the gospel draws from the old covenant and creates something new ...actually many things new .

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Yes, and those other traditions have their own predictions and covenants.

Ezekiel 18:23 Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? " Says the Lord God and not that he should turn from his ways and live ?
And Paul says with tears in Philippians 3 :18 that many are the enemies of the cross of Christ whose end is destruction ...Paul says it with tears ...showing that he has the spirit of Christ . When Jesus wept over Jerusalem , He said ..How often did I want to gather you as a hen covers her chicks with her wings and YOU WOULD NOT .
So , am ok with anyone suffering ? No . That is why Jesus says to compel them to come in . To plead ..to beg ..but most will not . That is also why Jesus said that whoever is not with us is against us and whosoever does not gather , scatters . It is like some people are for death . And the enemy of eternal life knowing that his time is short , is giving it all he has . Thus the increase in distractions , media entertainment , etc.
Regarding me personally of an eternal life filled with eternal separation ( suffering ) from the one I love ? No but do not forget that this is not about me , nor you . This is about God and His children . No more rebellions . Man thinks too highly of himself and can not think clearly . Even unbelievers subconsciously think they deserve heaven but are not aware .

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Thank you for sharing your faith in your religion.

ananda said:

Yes, and those other traditions have their own predictions and covenants.

Thank you for sharing your faith in your religion.

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ananda said:

Yes, and those other traditions have their own predictions and covenants.

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But as a person of truth , you are instinctively aware that only the prophecies of christian scripture , particularly as it pertains to the days in which we live , are being fulfilled even as we speak . I do not suppose you are a "hands covering your eyes" kind of individual . It is too important for that and there are not many serious minded individuals who are "awake" .

ananda said:

Thank you for sharing your faith in your religion.

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My friend . I do not have anything which was not given to me . I just joined something (someone )which existed long before man did. Do truth with open eyes and open heart . I hope to see you one day .

NeedyFollower said:

But as a person of truth , you are instinctively aware that only the prophecies of christian scripture , particularly as it pertains to the days in which we live , are being fulfilled even as we speak . I do not suppose you are a "hands covering your eyes" kind of individual . It is too important for that and there are not many serious minded individuals who are "awake" .

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I am not instinctively aware that the prophecies of Christian scripture are being fulfilled. I do see vague predictions which a vast number of interpreters have applied to different situations in their own days over the centuries, so much so that it is virtually impossible for me to take any of them seriously.

My friend . I do not have anything which was not given to me . I just joined something (someone )which existed long before man did. Do truth with open eyes and open heart . I hope to see you one day .

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Indeed, I have seen much truth and wisdom.