Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

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FineLinen

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Dear Country Boy: Aionios is aionios is aionios!

Aionios is rooted in the Hebrew Olam, linked with aion/aeon. God is Aidios and as such is the ONLY One approaching everlastingness. Again, aionios extends to quality, NOT DURATION!

This IS life aionios, that we may know You..."

Justinian, described as a “half-heathen”, made an ET declaration, but didn’t just use kolasis (punishment) aonian, but qualified it with the word ‘ateleutetos’ - which means endless.

He said “The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked.”

If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration. Thereby admitting that kolasis aonian was NOT considered ‘eternal’ at the time.

However, as his (Julian) contemporary, Olympiodorus wrote,

“Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless ages in Tartarus. Very properly the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aeonian period, calling its life, and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon.” It will be noticed that he not only denies endless punishment, and denies that the doctrine can be expressed by aionios declares that punishment is temporary and results in the sinner’s improvement."
 
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Major1

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It is very easily when just reading Scripture, unintentionally to bring in understandings you already have from other sources. Paul is in fact pretty clear.

All will be resurrected, but in order. There's no reason to take that "all" as including just Christians, since he explicitly includes rulers, authorities and power. First Christ, then those who are in Christ, then rulers, authorities, and powers are destroyed. Note: not everyone remaining, just oppressive powers. In the end everything is in subjection to him, and God will be all in all. I think we can assume that the rulers, authorities and powers don't end up part of that all in all, but there's nothing in the text to suggest other exceptions.

Note that this isn't true universalism, because there are oppressive authorities that are destroyed.

Please post the Scriptures you are reading from. I know what they are but everyone should know and I think it is you responsibility to post them not me.
 
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Major1

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Dear Country Boy: Aionios is aionios is aionios!

Aionios is rooted in the Hebrew Olam, linked with aion/aeon. God is Aidios and as such is the ONLY One approaching everlastingness.
This IS life aionios, that we may know You..."

And I once again disagree with you, respectfully.

The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.

  1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
  2. John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
  3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
  4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
  5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
  6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
  7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
  8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
  9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
  10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.
  1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
  2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
  3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
  4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
  5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
  6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
  7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
  8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org
 
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FineLinen

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And I once again disagree with you, respectfully.

The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.

  1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
  2. John 10:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
  3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
  4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
  5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
  6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
  7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
  8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
  9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
  10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.
  1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
  2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
  3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
  4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
  5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
  6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
  7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
  8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used.
A look at the word "aionion" | CARM.org

Dear Country Boy: I appreciate the "respectively". As for CARM and Eric, please respectively give F.L a break.

What The New Testament Teaches

Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time


Let us consider the true meaning of the words “aion” and “aionios”.

These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators “everlasting,” for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for “aion” means “an age,” a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective “aionios” means “of the age,” “age-long,” “aeonian,” and NEVER “everlasting” (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God…

NOTE:

The word “Aionios” by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"–Canon Farrar -

“The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages.”–Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, “that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by ‘olam’ (the Hebrew word corresponding to “aion”), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity.”

The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural–how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-

So the secular games, celebrated every century were called “eternal” by the Greeks.–(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

…Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase “eternal life” (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God’s commandment is life eternal,–ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.–1 John 1:2, 20.

Quality & Quantity

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus “eternal” punishment is one thing, and “everlasting” punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for “everlasting” the word “eternal” in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for “eternal” in strictness has no beginning.

Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited–nay, a very limited duration–to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be “for ever,” to be “everlasting” (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being “for ever with the Lord”–these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)–in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point–these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus

The Aaronic priesthood is said to be “everlasting,” -Numb.25:13-

The land of Canaan is given as an “everlasting” possession, and “for ever” -Gen. 17:8…Gen. 18:15-

In Deut. 23:3, “for ever” is distinctly made an equivalent to “even to the tenth generation.”

In Lamentations 5:19, “for ever and ever” is the equivalent of from “generation to generation.”

The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen “for ever” -Lev. 25:46-

In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant “for ever.”

Caleb obtains his inheritance “for ever” -Joshua 14:9-

And David’s seed is to endure “for ever,” his throne “for ever,” his house “for ever;” nay, the passover is to endure “for ever;” and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be “dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us.”

So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.–(Ezek. 16:55)

Christ’s Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

And Christ’s kingdom is to last “for ever,” yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.–(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

NOTE:

Thus Josephus calls “aeonian,” the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

Further, if this translation of aionios as “eternal,” in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the “eternities.” We can comprehend what “eternity” is, but what are the “eternities?” You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: “Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities.”

In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, “it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come.”

Our Lord’s words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, “the harvest is the end of the eternity,” i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, “the cares,” not of “this world,” but “the cares of this eternity choke the word.”

In Luke 16:8, “The children of this world,” should be “the children of this eternity.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, “upon whom the ends of the world are come,” should be: “the ends of the eternities.”

Take next, Gal. 1:4: “That He might deliver us from this present evil world,” should run thus: “from this present evil eternity.”

In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity.”

And “Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested,” should read, on the popular view, “at the end of the eternities.”

Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

Difficulties

  1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

  2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

  3. How come such phrases as for the “aion” or aions and beyond?–ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.–(see Sept. Ex. 15:18…Dan. 12:3…Micah 4:5)

  4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?–Matt. 13:39-40-49;…Matt. 24:3…Matt. 28:20…1 Cor. 10:11…Hebr. 9:26.

  5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19…Acts 3:21…Rom. 12:2…1 Cor. 1:20…1 Cor. 2:6…1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
If Aion Is Not Infinite

But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms “eternal” (when used as the equivalent of “endless”) and “everlasting?”

Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of “the ages.” This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking “what should be the sign of the end of the world.” It should be the end of the “age;” the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the “world,” but of the “age,” an important change.

So John 17:3, “this is life eternal,” should be “the life of the ages,” i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, “eternal salvation” should be “aeonian” or of the ages; “eternal redemption” is the redemption “of the ages;” the eternal covenant is the “covenant of the ages,” the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

In Eph. 3:11, “the eternal purpose” is really the purpose of “the ages,” i.e., worked out in “the ages.”

In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, “until all the generations of the age of the ages.” Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering “throughout all ages.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11 “the ends of the world” are the “ends of the ages.” In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated “world,” it should be "age’ or “ages” in all cases.

And here it is impossible to avoid asking how–assuming that aion does mean “world” in these cases–how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as “everlasting?” If it mean “world,” then the adjective should be “worldly,” “of the world.” And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering “age.”
 
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Major1

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1 Cor 15, starting at 22.

Thank my friend.

1 Corinthians 15:22 ......….
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Now where in that Scripture is.........
"All will be resurrected, but in order. There's no reason to take that "all" as including just Christians, since he explicitly includes rulers, authorities and power. First Christ, then those who are in Christ, then rulers, authorities, and powers are destroyed."

Isn't that verse telling us that Adam is the head of the human family?

And since that is true, our natural relationship to him, physical death comes to all men is our nature.

But Christ is the head of the SPIRITUAL life and if any man be IN Christ he is a new creation. All who believe on Him and trust in His work will be made alive SPIRITUALLY.

Yes, I agree that there is an order of the resurrection.

The first resurrection takes place in various stages.

Jesus Christ Himself is the “first fruits,” 1 Corth. 15:20. He by His resurrection paved the way for the resurrection of all who believe in Him.

Then there was a resurrection of the Jerusalem saints seen in Matt. 27:52-53 which must be included in theconsideration of the first resurrection.

Still to come are the resurrection of “the dead in Christ” at the Lord’s return ( in 1 Thess. 4:16.

Then shall come the resurrection of the martyrs at the end of the Tribulation as recorded in Rev. 20:4.

Then Rev. 20:12-13 identifies those comprising the SECOND resurrection as the wicked judged by God at the great white throne judgment prior to being cast into the lake of fire. Those unbelievers will then spend eternity in torments in the Lake of Fire.

The second resurrection, then, is the raising of all unbelievers; the second resurrection is connected to the second death. It corresponds with Jesus’ teaching of the “resurrection of damnation” in John 5:29.

The event which divides the first and second resurrections seems to be the millennial kingdom that lasts 1000 years.
 
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hedrick

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The problem is that the NT has two pictures of the end. One, which you see in Jesus, Rom 2:6, etc, has punishment of the wicked. The other, which you see in 1 Cor 15, Philip 2, and the end of the Rev, has a wonderful world where everyone is in Christ, and all tears are wiped away.

You have to deal with both of these. The only way I can see to do that is to assume either that punishment is temporary, or that the wicked end up destroyed (with perhaps some reconciled), or a combination. When the accounts of punishment are looked at with the OT background, a lot sound like destruction.
 
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Dear Country Boy: I appreciate the "respectively". As for CARM and Eric, please respectively give F.L a break.

What The New Testament Teaches

Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time


Let us consider the true meaning of the words “aion” and “aionios”.

These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators “everlasting,” for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for “aion” means “an age,” a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective “aionios” means “of the age,” “age-long,” “aeonian,” and NEVER “everlasting” (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God…

NOTE:

The word “Aionios” by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"–Canon Farrar -

“The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages.”–Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, “that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by ‘olam’ (the Hebrew word corresponding to “aion”), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity.”

The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural–how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-

So the secular games, celebrated every century were called “eternal” by the Greeks.–(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

…Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase “eternal life” (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God’s commandment is life eternal,–ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.–1 John 1:2, 20.

Quality & Quantity

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus “eternal” punishment is one thing, and “everlasting” punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for “everlasting” the word “eternal” in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for “eternal” in strictness has no beginning.

Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited–nay, a very limited duration–to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be “for ever,” to be “everlasting” (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being “for ever with the Lord”–these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)–in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point–these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus

The Aaronic priesthood is said to be “everlasting,” -Numb.25:13-

The land of Canaan is given as an “everlasting” possession, and “for ever” -Gen. 17:8…Gen. 18:15-

In Deut. 23:3, “for ever” is distinctly made an equivalent to “even to the tenth generation.”

In Lamentations 5:19, “for ever and ever” is the equivalent of from “generation to generation.”

The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen “for ever” -Lev. 25:46-

In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant “for ever.”

Caleb obtains his inheritance “for ever” -Joshua 14:9-

And David’s seed is to endure “for ever,” his throne “for ever,” his house “for ever;” nay, the passover is to endure “for ever;” and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be “dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us.”

So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.–(Ezek. 16:55)

Christ’s Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

And Christ’s kingdom is to last “for ever,” yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.–(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

NOTE:

Thus Josephus calls “aeonian,” the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

Further, if this translation of aionios as “eternal,” in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the “eternities.” We can comprehend what “eternity” is, but what are the “eternities?” You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: “Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities.”

In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, “it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come.”

Our Lord’s words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, “the harvest is the end of the eternity,” i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, “the cares,” not of “this world,” but “the cares of this eternity choke the word.”

In Luke 16:8, “The children of this world,” should be “the children of this eternity.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, “upon whom the ends of the world are come,” should be: “the ends of the eternities.”

Take next, Gal. 1:4: “That He might deliver us from this present evil world,” should run thus: “from this present evil eternity.”

In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity.”

And “Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested,” should read, on the popular view, “at the end of the eternities.”

Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

Difficulties

  1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?

  2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?

  3. How come such phrases as for the “aion” or aions and beyond?–ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.–(see Sept. Ex. 15:18…Dan. 12:3…Micah 4:5)

  4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?–Matt. 13:39-40-49;…Matt. 24:3…Matt. 28:20…1 Cor. 10:11…Hebr. 9:26.

  5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19…Acts 3:21…Rom. 12:2…1 Cor. 1:20…1 Cor. 2:6…1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.
If Aion Is Not Infinite

But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms “eternal” (when used as the equivalent of “endless”) and “everlasting?”

Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of “the ages.” This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking “what should be the sign of the end of the world.” It should be the end of the “age;” the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the “world,” but of the “age,” an important change.

So John 17:3, “this is life eternal,” should be “the life of the ages,” i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, “eternal salvation” should be “aeonian” or of the ages; “eternal redemption” is the redemption “of the ages;” the eternal covenant is the “covenant of the ages,” the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

In Eph. 3:11, “the eternal purpose” is really the purpose of “the ages,” i.e., worked out in “the ages.”

In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, “until all the generations of the age of the ages.” Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering “throughout all ages.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11 “the ends of the world” are the “ends of the ages.” In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated “world,” it should be "age’ or “ages” in all cases.

And here it is impossible to avoid asking how–assuming that aion does mean “world” in these cases–how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as “everlasting?” If it mean “world,” then the adjective should be “worldly,” “of the world.” And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering “age.”

So you reject ALL those who disagree with you then.
So then, here is another................
Heaven and Hell - Is Hell Eternal Punishment?


"People question whether this hell is an eternal abode. To put the question in other words, is hell a place where people dwell forever in torment as heaven is a place where people dwell forever in joy? Are these opposites so equally opposite?

The Greek word for eternal or everlasting is αιωνιον, aionion. That very same word is used in the terms “eternal life” and “eternal punishment”. Hell is as eternal as heaven.

Jude emphasises this when he writes of "everlasting chains... eternal fire... darkness forever" (Jude 1:6-7,13).

The judgment scene in Revelation 20:10,15 pictures the torment of the wicked as being "for ever and ever".

Some people cannot accept that a loving God would send any soul into unending punishment. However God has shown his love, not by promising that the wicked will cease to exist, but that those who will believe and obey his Son will have eternal life (John 3:16).

The wicked in hell will suffer "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord" (2Thessalonians 1:8-9). Some interpret this to mean that the unsaved will cease to exist, their souls will be destroyed, and they'll never be raised again in all eternity. However this is not in line with the other passages quoted above.

Those unhappy passages are balanced by statements such as this: "God is not willing that anyone should perish, but that everyone should come to repentance" (2Peter 3:9).
 
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Major1

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The problem is that the NT has two pictures of the end. One, which you see in Jesus, Rom 2:6, etc, has punishment of the wicked. The other, which you see in 1 Cor 15, Philip 2, and the end of the Rev, has a wonderful world where everyone is in Christ, and all tears are wiped away.

You have to deal with both of these. The only way I can see to do that is to assume either that punishment is temporary, or that the wicked end up destroyed (with perhaps some reconciled), or a combination. When the accounts of punishment are looked at with the OT background, a lot sound like destruction.

Sorry, brother, I do not agree.

The wicked will be in torments forever just as the Scripture.

The saved will be in heaven just as the Scriptures say.

BOTH are eternal and forever and ever.

ALL who come to Christ will be in heaven. ALL who place faith in Him will be in heaven.

ALL who reject Christ will be in hell.

Both are forever and ever and that is how you deal with both of them.

You and I must be reading a different account of Rev. ending.

Revelation 20:4
......
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

These are the humans who live through the Tribluation.

Rev. 20:5.....
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

Rev. 20:8-10...…...
"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth-Gog and Magog-and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them (physically). And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Where in those verses do we find EVERYONE BEING SAVED??????

You said........
"Rev, has a wonderful world where everyone is in Christ, and all tears are wiped away."

But that is CONTEXTUALLY the believers who accepted Christ. ALL the others were destroyed in Rev. 20:10 and their souls cast into the Lake of Fire.
 
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hedrick

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Jude emphasises this when he writes of "everlasting chains... eternal fire... darkness forever" (Jude 1:6-7,13).
The problem with these quotations is that there's OT basis to think they're hyperbole. Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire. But they're not still burning. Is 66:24 seems to be alluded to in several passages, with its worm that never dies and fires that never end. The problem is that these are consuming the dead bodies of the enemies. They're not eternal torture. And the fires aren't still burning (unless the passage was intended to be eschatological, in which case it's pretty unambiguously teaching conditional immortality).

The phrase "eternal destruction" is sufficiently ambiguous that I don't think you should base doctrine on it.

I'm not a fan of redefining eternal. But it's certainly possible that it referred to something whose effects were eternal. Furthermore, in the OT eternal and everlasting are just not used in the literal fashion you want to restrict us to. We have eternal and everlasting mountains. They are not literally eternal. In Ps 24:7 we have everlasting doors. I'm pretty sure they're not there any more. In Jer 29:12, Babylon is made an everlasting waste. I think that punishment has expired. I keep trying to tell people: you can't read the Bible as if it was a computer program.

Again, you can't take these passages alone, without also taking the visions of a restored heaven and earth. There's no room in those pictures for torture chambers. Do you really think God is going to wipe our tears away when most of our friends and relatives are being tormented? Selective amnesia? We no longer care?
 
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Hillsage

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I don't see any sign of that universal meaning in TDNT or Louw and Nida. I'm skeptical.
Not being familiar with any of your sources, I must ask you this. Are any of the authors Universalist believers? If not, then why would you expect them to be a source that would give "any sign of that universal meaning"? There are obviously two opposing camps represented here in this thread. And then there is you, 'a' camper who is throwing studious inputs, ladeled with grace, into both camps. ;)

My reading of Matthew is that he's much more interested in punishment than Mark or Luke, and I don't see much evidence of the universal positive outcome that's in Paul and maybe the Rev.
If the bible was written by 'automatic handwriting' I would say both Matthew and Mark should 'feel' and write the exact same way as God. But since scripture was 'inspired' by God it makes perfect sense that personal opinion has crept in (as well as the pollution of Jeremiah 8:8). This 'personal opinion' position I mention is based upon Paul's very own admission in the letter from him which became declared by men to be graphe/scripture.

1CO 7:25 Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord's mercy is trustworthy.

It would be nice if the NT has a single, clear vision shared by everyone. But it doesn't. That's part of why there are so many disagreements about eschatology.
True words . But would you not also agree that on the day of judgment, anyone is going to be 'judged' for his dogma. He is going to be judged for his works. In your opinion, is the importance of 'correct doctrine' that we may 'talk it right', or that we may 'walk it right'?
 
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Major1

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The problem with these quotations is that there's OT basis to think they're hyperbole. Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire. But they're not still burning. Is 66:24 seems to be alluded to in several passages, with its worm that never dies and fires that never end. The problem is that these are consuming the dead bodies of the enemies. They're not eternal torture. And the fires aren't still burning (unless the passage was intended to be eschatological, in which case it's pretty unambiguously teaching conditional immortality).

The phrase "eternal destruction" is sufficiently ambiguous that I don't think you should base doctrine on it.

I'm not a fan of redefining eternal. But it's certainly possible that it referred to something whose effects were eternal. Furthermore, in the OT eternal and everlasting are just not used in the literal fashion you want to restrict us to. We have eternal and everlasting mountains. They are not literally eternal. In Ps 24:7 we have everlasting doors. I'm pretty sure they're not there any more. In Jer 29:12, Babylon is made an everlasting waste. I think that punishment has expired. I keep trying to tell people: you can't read the Bible as if it was a computer program.

Again, you can't take these passages alone, without also taking the visions of a restored heaven and earth. There's no room in those pictures for torture chambers. Do you really think God is going to wipe our tears away when most of our friends and relatives are being tormented? Selective amnesia? We no longer care?

Jude 7 meaning is...…….

The phrase “eternal fire” is one that is often used to denote future punishment - as expressing the severity and intensity of the suffering. See the notes, Matthew 25:41. As here used, it cannot mean that the fires which consumed Sodom and Gomorrah were literally eternal, or were kept always burning, for that was not true. The expression seems to denote, in this connection, two things:

(1)That the destruction of the cities of the plain, with their inhabitants, was as entire and perpetual as if the fires had been always burning - the consumption was absolute and enduring - the sinners were wholly cut off, and the cities forever rendered desolate; and,

(2)that, in its nature and duration, this was a striking emblem of the destruction which will come upon the ungodly. I do not see that the apostle here means to affirm that those particular sinners who dwelt in Sodom would be punished forever, for his expressions do not directly affirm that, and his argument does not demand it; but still the “image” in his mind, in the destruction of those cities, was clearly that of the utter desolation and ruin of which this was the emblem; of the perpetual destruction of the wicked, like that of the cities of the plain. If this had not been the case, there was no reason why he should have used the word “eternal” - meaning here “perpetual” - since, if in his mind there was no image of future punishment, all that the argument would have demanded was the simple statement that they were cut off by fire.
Jude 1:7 - just as Sodom and Gomorrah... - Verse-by-Verse Commentary
 
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Major1

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The problem with these quotations is that there's OT basis to think they're hyperbole. Jude 7 says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered eternal fire. But they're not still burning. Is 66:24 seems to be alluded to in several passages, with its worm that never dies and fires that never end. The problem is that these are consuming the dead bodies of the enemies. They're not eternal torture. And the fires aren't still burning (unless the passage was intended to be eschatological, in which case it's pretty unambiguously teaching conditional immortality).

The phrase "eternal destruction" is sufficiently ambiguous that I don't think you should base doctrine on it.

I'm not a fan of redefining eternal. But it's certainly possible that it referred to something whose effects were eternal. Furthermore, in the OT eternal and everlasting are just not used in the literal fashion you want to restrict us to. We have eternal and everlasting mountains. They are not literally eternal. In Ps 24:7 we have everlasting doors. I'm pretty sure they're not there any more. In Jer 29:12, Babylon is made an everlasting waste. I think that punishment has expired. I keep trying to tell people: you can't read the Bible as if it was a computer program.

Again, you can't take these passages alone, without also taking the visions of a restored heaven and earth. There's no room in those pictures for torture chambers. Do you really think God is going to wipe our tears away when most of our friends and relatives are being tormented? Selective amnesia? We no longer care?

And right here is the basis for all of this back and forth argueing.

You said and others have also agreed...……….
"Do you really think God is going to wipe our tears away when most of our friends and relatives are being tormented? Selective amnesia? We no longer care?"

To ALL of my dear friends and fellow believers.......what I or anyone THINKS is not now nor has it ever been acceptable.

The only thing that matters is what God said.

Revelation 21:4 ...….
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Isaiah 25:8 ........
"He will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people's disgrace from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.

Revelation 7:17 ........
"For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.' 'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

Psalm 126:5 ......….
"Those who sow with tears will reap with songs of joy.

Psalm 56:8 ......….
"Record my misery; list my tears on your scroll- are they not in your record?

NOW then.....is that what God said or is it not????

HOW He does it is of no concern to me. All I know is that He said it and if that is the case He will do it.

So then, when we do begin to apply OUR thinking to Gods Word we come up with thoughts like you posted.....

"The phrase "eternal destruction" is sufficiently ambiguous that I don't think you should base doctrine on it."

When we THINK, we open the door of liberalism. The idea that some of our loved ones, moms and dads and children will be tormented in hell for eternity is just more than we can bare and accept. So what do we do??????

We CHANGE the meaning of words to make them more acceptable.

Then we come up with the thought that eternal punishment in hell with demons is not in the character of God's love.

What we are doing is THINKING that God's punishment is more than the crime committed.

Those who do not accept the Bible's teaching on eternal punishment of the wicked lost...….but still claim to believe the Bible have 2 options.

1.
Some argue that the wicked will suffer for a period of time and then be annihilated. This is also the view of the Seventh Day Adventist sect.

2.
Others use Colossians 1:20 (and other texts) to argue that through the cross, God will eventually reconcile all people to Christ. Some go so far as to say that eventually, even Satan and the demons will be saved! This view is called “universalism.”

Both of these THOUGHTS come out of the mind of people and are alien to the Word of God.

One of the best resources I know of on this subject is found at......
Lesson 2: Eternal Destruction or Eternal Glory? (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) | Bible.org
 
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FineLinen

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And right here is the basis for all of this back and forth argueing.

You said and others have also agreed...……….
"Do you really think God is going to wipe our tears away when most of our friends and relatives are being tormented? Selective amnesia? We no longer care?"

To ALL of my dear friends and fellow believers.......what I or anyone THINKS is not now nor has it ever been acceptable.

The only thing that matters is what God said.

Revelation 21:4 ...….
"He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Isaiah 25:8 ........
"He will swallow up death forever. The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears from all faces; he will remove his people's disgrace from all the earth. The LORD has spoken.

Revelation 7:17 ........
"For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; 'he will lead them to springs of living water.' 'And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

Psalm 126:5 ......….
"Those who sow with tears will reap with songs of joy.

Psalm 56:8 ......….
"Record my misery; list my tears on your scroll- are they not in your record?

NOW then.....is that what God said or is it not????

HOW He does it is of no concern to me. All I know is that He said it and if that is the case He will do it.

So then, when we do begin to apply OUR thinking to Gods Word we come up with thoughts like you posted.....

"The phrase "eternal destruction" is sufficiently ambiguous that I don't think you should base doctrine on it."

When we THINK, we open the door of liberalism. The idea that some of our loved ones, moms and dads and children will be tormented in hell for eternity is just more than we can bare and accept. So what do we do??????

We CHANGE the meaning of words to make them more acceptable.

Then we come up with the thought that eternal punishment in hell with demons is not in the character of God's love.

What we are doing is THINKING that God's punishment is more than the crime committed.

Those who do not accept the Bible's teaching on eternal punishment of the wicked lost...….but still claim to believe the Bible have 2 options.

1.
Some argue that the wicked will suffer for a period of time and then be annihilated. This is also the view of the Seventh Day Adventist sect.

2.
Others use Colossians 1:20 (and other texts) to argue that through the cross, God will eventually reconcile all people to Christ. Some go so far as to say that eventually, even Satan and the demons will be saved! This view is called “universalism.”

Both of these THOUGHTS come out of the mind of people and are alien to the Word of God.

One of the best resources I know of on this subject is found at......
Lesson 2: Eternal Destruction or Eternal Glory? (2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) | Bible.org

Dear Country Boy: It is absolutely unnecessary to change the meaning of aionios! It is defined for you by the Apostle John. It either evades your grasp, your hearing, or your vision, or all of it.

"This IS zoe aionios that we may know You..."

 
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Major1

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Dear Country Boy: It is absolutely unnecessary to change the meaning of aionios! It is defined for you by the Apostle John. It either evades your grasp, your hearing, or your vision, or all it.

"This IS zoe aionios that we may know You..."


The righteous will not simply live without end, but will live with all the joy which will characterize the age to come. And the unrighteous will not simply be punished without end, but punished with all the immortal severity which will characterize the age to come. It is the quality of the age to come—with its intensity both of punishment and joy—that is stressed, not simply its endless duration.

The righteous will not simply live without end, but will live with all the joy which will characterize the age to come. And the unrighteous will not simply be punished without end, but punished with all the immortal severity which will characterize the age to come. It is the quality of the age to come—with its intensity both of punishment and joy—that is stressed, not simply its endless duration.
Source.....ancientfaith.com/nootherfoundation/what-does-aionion-mean/
 
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FineLinen

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The righteous will not simply live without end, but will live with all the joy which will characterize the age to come. And the unrighteous will not simply be punished without end, but punished with all the immortal severity which will characterize the age to come. It is the quality of the age to come—with its intensity both of punishment and joy—that is stressed, not simply its endless duration.

The righteous will not simply live without end, but will live with all the joy which will characterize the age to come. And the unrighteous will not simply be punished without end, but punished with all the immortal severity which will characterize the age to come. It is the quality of the age to come—with its intensity both of punishment and joy—that is stressed, not simply its endless duration.
Source.....ancientfaith.com/nootherfoundation/what-does-aionion-mean/

Dear Country Boy: Let poor old dumb F.L. get this dogma of yours straight>>>

The purpose of a calibre father is to administer punishment in quality, and without end for ever and ever and ever and ever.

In short: punishment is an end in itself.

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: The Cause of Spiritual Stupidity

"He heals up the brokenhearted & heals up ALL their wounds."
 
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eleos1954

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So what does "every knee bow at the name of Jesus" mean to you? Do the unsaved ever bow their knees to Jesus? Where exactly does it say every knee will bow at the judgment? You must provide scriptures to support your view. The verse I quoted unequivocally states that those in heaven will bow their knee/confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord = saved souls. Those on earth - will bow their knee/confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord = saved souls. Those under the earth - will bow their knee/confess with their tongue that Jesus Christ is Lord = saved souls. This is universal in scope and application.
For it has been written: "I live, says the Lord, that every knee will bow to Me, and every tongue will confess to God." Rom 14:11
that if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised Him out from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:9

Matthew 7:21
New International Version
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Those who have died (earthly death) have sealed their fate .... either to eternal life (1st resurrection) ... or to eternal death (be destroyed, never to exist again.) (2nd resurrection)

All saved or unsaved dead are waiting (dormant - not conscience) in the grave until the Lord returns.

Yes, all the wicked will know and bow and admit that Jesus is Lord, but that will not save them. They HAD that opportunity while they were alive on earth and chose otherwise.

There are no second chances once one passes (dies earthly death)

Ezekiel 13:14

"So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst And you will know that I am the LORD.

2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

This teaching of ECT is one of the most damaging teachings out there. Keeps MANY from coming to the Lord.

People instinctively know this is not representative of a loving God. They ask ...

What kind of a loving God tortures people FOREVER?

If it's "ok" for God to torture people, then it must also be "ok" for us to torture people ... is it? Of course not!

Sin is such a "infectious disease" and it must be totally eradicated and the only way to do that is to destroy it completely ... and the Lord will do that in the very end.

Malachi 4:1

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.

and the last to be destroyed is death

1st Corinthians 15:26

New International Version
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death is final ... no longer to exist ... it is destroyed.

and all the saved will see the final destruction and although painful to see so many lost, understand the necessity of His strange act of destruction in order to establish a new totally sinless world for eternity.

Revelation 21:4
New International Version
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order (death and destruction) of things has passed away." (for eternity)
 
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FineLinen

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Matthew 7:21
New International Version
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Those who have died (earthly death) have sealed their fate .... either to eternal life (1st resurrection) ... or to eternal death (be destroyed, never to exist again.) (2nd resurrection)

All saved or unsaved dead are waiting (dormant - not conscience) in the grave until the Lord returns.

Yes, all the wicked will know and bow and admit that Jesus is Lord, but that will not save them. They HAD that opportunity while they were alive on earth and chose otherwise.

There are no second chances once one passes (dies earthly death)

Ezekiel 13:14

"So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst And you will know that I am the LORD.

2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

This teaching of ECT is one of the most damaging teachings out there. Keeps MANY from coming to the Lord.

People instinctively know this is not representative of a loving God. They ask ...

What kind of a loving God tortures people FOREVER?

If it's "ok" for God to torture people, then it must also be "ok" for us to torture people ... is it? Of course not!

Sin is such a "infectious disease" and it must be totally eradicated and the only way to do that is to destroy it completely ... and the Lord will do that in the very end.

Malachi 4:1

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.

and the last to be destroyed is death

1st Corinthians 15:26

New International Version
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death is final ... no longer to exist ... it is destroyed.

and all the saved will see the final destruction and although painful to see so many lost, understand the necessity of His strange act of destruction in order to establish a new totally sinless world for eternity.

Revelation 21:4
New International Version
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order (death and destruction) of things has passed away." (for eternity)

Dear Eleos: NONSENSE!!

Our Father is NOT running a gigantic Heavenly Casino of chance!>>>>

No chance, not 1st, not second, not third, not 4th ad nauseam

NO Chance!
 
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Oldmantook

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Matthew 7:21
New International Version
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Those who have died (earthly death) have sealed their fate .... either to eternal life (1st resurrection) ... or to eternal death (be destroyed, never to exist again.) (2nd resurrection)

All saved or unsaved dead are waiting (dormant - not conscience) in the grave until the Lord returns.

Yes, all the wicked will know and bow and admit that Jesus is Lord, but that will not save them. They HAD that opportunity while they were alive on earth and chose otherwise.

There are no second chances once one passes (dies earthly death)

Ezekiel 13:14

"So I will tear down the wall which you plastered over with whitewash and bring it down to the ground, so that its foundation is laid bare; and when it falls, you will be consumed in its midst And you will know that I am the LORD.

2 Peter 3:7

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

This teaching of ECT is one of the most damaging teachings out there. Keeps MANY from coming to the Lord.

People instinctively know this is not representative of a loving God. They ask ...

What kind of a loving God tortures people FOREVER?

If it's "ok" for God to torture people, then it must also be "ok" for us to torture people ... is it? Of course not!

Sin is such a "infectious disease" and it must be totally eradicated and the only way to do that is to destroy it completely ... and the Lord will do that in the very end.

Malachi 4:1

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.

and the last to be destroyed is death

1st Corinthians 15:26

New International Version
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Death is final ... no longer to exist ... it is destroyed.

and all the saved will see the final destruction and although painful to see so many lost, understand the necessity of His strange act of destruction in order to establish a new totally sinless world for eternity.

Revelation 21:4
New International Version
He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order (death and destruction) of things has passed away." (for eternity)
Based on your reply above I have one simple question for you: Please explain to me why the "kings of the earth" are allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem? Rev 21:24
 
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eleos1954

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Dear Eleos: NONSENSE!!

Our Father is NOT running a gigantic Heavenly Casino of chance!>>>>

No chance, not 1st, not second, not third, not 4th ad nauseam

NO Chance!

Our Father is NOT running a gigantic Heavenly Casino of chance!

and I didn't say He was.

When one dies earthly death ... when Jesus returns the 1st resurrection happens those of the saved and receive eternal life.

1 Thessalonians 4

The Return of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Later ... 2nd resurrection will be destroyed.

Revelation 20:9
And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, (nothing left)

What I meant by chance .... was everyone had their opportunity to choose Christ or not.
 
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