Second-chance Purgatory?

BNR32FAN said:

Are you basing that on any type of evidence or just pulling that out of thin air?

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Basing it on what I've read, and what my Church believes. That's evidence enough. And I'm a convert, so I've examined the evidence of my Church's Truth.

morgannicole555 said:

He believes that people across the world who did not grow up in a Christian society and who were raised by their families to believe a different religion, will not automatically go to hell, but instead go to some sort of purgatory where God will give them a second chance.

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I am not sure if that would be considered a second chance, if they did not have a chance to believe in Christianity in the first place.

morgannicole555 said:

He doesn't believe that God would condemn someone to hell for believing in the religion their parents taught them to. I'm not sure of anything like this being referenced in the Bible and am feeling very conflicted now. Thoughts?

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There is also a possibility that even though they did not openly profess their faith because of their parents, they believed in their hearts.

As far as the doctrine of purgatory, consider whether or not it conflicts with the absolute sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

ChicanaRose said:

There is also a possibility that even though they did not openly profess their faith because of their parents, they believed in their hearts.

As far as the doctrine of purgatory, consider whether or not it conflicts with the absolute sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

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Purgatory is not a second chance or a back door to salvation. It is only for those already saved by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. It is the same Christ who purifies them in purgatory who sanctifies them otherwise in this life. It is the process of complete sanctification finally finished for those who die before they are fully ready to enter heaven. And that would be most of us. So no conflict with the entire sufficiency of Jesus atonement. Except for people who do not understand what it is. And it is no second chance, as some popularly think.

What about those who never heard of Jesus? Who never had a chance to come to faith? I don't know, but if God wants to do something that would be totally outside of what purgatory is for. I do not want to limit God's infinite mercy, but shoehorning that into purgatory is improper. Purgatory is only for the already saved. We should pray for people who don't know Jesus, work to introduce them to Jesus, support mission work that does the same, and not rely on 'Jesus will take care of it' magical thinking. Maybe Jesus WILL take care of it. Or maybe we are the hands and feet and voice of Jesus failing in our duty.

Idk, I don't see purgatory anywhere in scripture at all.

ChicanaRose said:

There is also a possibility that even though they did not openly profess their faith because of their parents, they believed in their hearts.

As far as the doctrine of purgatory, consider whether or not it conflicts with the absolute sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice on the cross.

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As Chevyontheriver said, IF that were true, it wouldn't be Purgatory or anything like Purgatory.

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy."? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first." "It may hurt, you know"--"Even so, sir." - CS Lewis

Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, by C. S. Lewis

Devin P said:

Idk, I don't see purgatory anywhere in scripture at all.

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1 Corinthians 3:13-15 illustrates the Catholic understanding of Purgatory.

charsan said:

Our souls demand Purgatory, don't they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, "It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy."? Should we not reply, "With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I'd rather be cleaned first." "It may hurt, you know"--"Even so, sir." - CS Lewis

Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly on Prayer, by C. S. Lewis

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Matthew 20:12 12'These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
Matthew 20:13 13"But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?

Why does it make a difference in eternity if someone comes to Christ in his deathbed?

ChicanaRose said:

Matthew 20:12 12'These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
Matthew 20:13 13"But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?

Why does it make a difference in eternity if someone comes to Christ in his deathbed?

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You'll have to ask CS Lewis, that is his quote not mine

ChicanaRose said:

Matthew 20:12 12'These who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'
Matthew 20:13 13"But he answered one of them, 'I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius?

Why does it make a difference in eternity if someone comes to Christ in his deathbed?

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An entire lifetime of sanctification vs. an hour of it comes to mind.

thecolorsblend said:

An entire lifetime of sanctification vs. an hour of it comes to mind.

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"...and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day." v. 12

ChicanaRose said:

"...and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day." v. 12

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I would support a rule against drive-by scripture posting.

If you’ve got something to say then say it. But skip this business of posting scriptures without comment.

thecolorsblend said:

I would support a rule against drive-by scripture posting.

If you’ve got something to say then say it. But skip this business of posting scriptures without comment.

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I thought it was quite straightforward, but here it is: God gives His grace equally as He wishes. Who knows if He actually makes people pay more for their sins in purgatory?

thecolorsblend said:

An entire lifetime of sanctification vs. an hour of it comes to mind.

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You ignored the part about him giving equally in verse 12. That's my comment to your argument since you asked.

ChicanaRose said:

I thought it was quite straightforward

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Yes. But I didn't. Because there are lots of ways of interpreting that passage.

ChicanaRose said:

God gives His grace equally as He wishes. Who knows if He actually makes people pay more for their sins in purgatory?

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What Our Lord taught in that passage is a parable. While it has spiritual value, it is not an allegory and should not be construed as an allegory. Thus, making too many 1-to-1 correlations between one parable and the entire field of soteriology is not a wise decision.

As to Purgatory specifically, Our Lord purchased salvation for us with His sacrificial work. Even so, we have an inclination toward sin during our mortal lives. And this mortal must put on immortality if we are to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. So Catholics believe that Purgatory is the modality whereby that process occurs.

I have noted that Protestants seem to regard Purgatory as something which happens separate from and independent of Our Lord. But that isn't possible. The faithful do not "pay more" for their sins. There is only one Savior and Catholics do not hesitate to acknowledge that reality.

Therefore, Purgatory is a place of refinement for the Heaven-bound. As a lot of Protestants have a tendency to understand sanctification to be a process separate and apart from justification, one could consider Purgatory as the place where sanctification is completed.

thecolorsblend said:

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 illustrates the Catholic understanding of Purgatory.

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How does that describe a place of holding where those who fall short are reproved? That's talking about the judgement that leads to eternal life or death.

Devin P said:

How does that describe a place of holding where those who fall short are reproved? That's talking about the judgement that leads to eternal life or death.

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Nobody “falls short” in Purgatory. Purgatory is a place of refinement for those whose salvation is already assured.

thecolorsblend said:

Nobody “falls short” in Purgatory. Purgatory is a place of refinement for those whose salvation is already assured.

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But if it were true, it requires a lot of work on the part of the living to intercede for them.

Why do people pray more for the sanctification of the dead than of the living? Had they prayed more for this person while he was still alive, he could have avoided purgatory (if it were true).

Root of Jesse said:

As if that matters...But actually, the Orthodox do believe in purification before entering heaven. So we have the same concept.

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Nice to see you again, Jesse.

How do you pray for a dead person if you are not sure she is saved or not?
It would be too late to pray if she is not.
Do you pray, "Lord, if she is in purgatory..." ?