Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

Johnny4ChristJesus · Sep 23, 2018

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL

The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.

But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.

I understand that Divine selection is clearly in place. But, I also understand free will to be in place. How do you respond to verses that clearly seem to suggest that God wants nobody to perish but all to be saved (Like 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:8-9), if God has created the elected and the non-elected without regard for their choices?

DeaconDean · Sep 23, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I understand that Divine selection is clearly in place. But, I also understand free will to be in place. How do you respond to verses that clearly seem to suggest that God wants nobody to perish but all to be saved (Like 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:8-9), if God has created the elected and the non-elected without regard for their choices?

Where was God's desire to save all men before the deluge?

Where was God's desire to save all men when He led Israel out of bondage?

Where was God's desire to save all men in His sovereign choice of Israel as His covenant people?

Since when does the word "world" mean every man without exception?

How can you stand up and use the "free will" argument when the scriptures very, and mean very plainly say its not the will that controls man, its the heart?

Re-read the Old Testament. Unless you were a Hebrew/Jew, you were locked out from the blessings of God.

Prior to the death of Christ on the cross, in Arminian theology, God owes a huge, and I mean huge apology to the literally billions and billions who died, unsaved, before Christ.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Johnny4ChristJesus · Sep 23, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Yes and no.

Calvinism does not teach that man is damned against his will or saved against his will. All who are saved are saved willingly - they willingly turn from sin and turn to God. All who go to damnation do so willingly in that they do not want to turn to God and would rather stay in their sin.

However, Calvinism affirms that God is so magnificent that any true apprehension of God would immediately yield repentance. If a person truly sees God for who He is then they cannot but repent. God's grace - his revelation of himself - is irresistible because God is so beautiful. So those who, in the end, deny God have never truly apprehended him.

So, in your understanding then, does God choose who He is going to give the grace to apprehend Him based on His foreknowledge of those who will choose Him--when given that grace--OR is it based on an arbitrary/random choice to give some that grace and deny others that grace intentionally and without applying any foreknowledge--like He used when Jesus Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

MDC · Sep 23, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
So, in your understanding then, does God choose who He is going to give the grace to apprehend Him based on His foreknowledge of those who will choose Him--when given that grace--OR is it based on an arbitrary/random choice to give some that grace and deny others that grace intentionally and without applying any foreknowledge--like He used when Jesus Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

God gives grace according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1:5. Otherwise it’s not grace at all. The arbitrary/random assertion is an understanding that comes from a prideful heart. Simply because you believe grace is earned in someway. Do you believe sinful mankind is deserving of such grace? Is God unjust to show mercy on some and not all? According to this free will theology you are promoting, you do correct? Foreknowledge according to you is actually foreseen merit and actions God basis salvation in. That’s not taught in scripture. This is nothing more than a ploy to promote works based salvation and a man centered theology which nullifies grace all together and does away with the gospel of Christ

Thomas Bagley · Sep 23, 2018

I wholeheartedly do agree that Arminianism is a lazy theology and totally unbiblical.

Sound Doctrine · Sep 23, 2018

Johnny4ChristJesus said:
I understand that Divine selection is clearly in place. But, I also understand free will to be in place. How do you respond to verses that clearly seem to suggest that God wants nobody to perish but all to be saved (Like 1 Tim 2:3-4, 2 Pet 3:8-9), if God has created the elected and the non-elected without regard for their choices?

The three wills as taught in Scripture:

The Bible teaches us of three wills: The will of man, the will of Jesus, and the will of the Father. They are distinctly different.
Man’s Will: "1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.
3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Psalm 53:1-3.
“10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Romans 3:10-12.
“7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." - Romans 8:7-8.
Since no one seeks after God, no one will come to Him for salvation. Our Savior, Jesus Christ desires all to be saved, but because He is sent not to do His will, but the will of the Father, we see that the will of the Father is different with respect to who gets saved, and that there are those, by His will who do not. Our will is not mentioned. Our actions are mentions, but our will is not, when it comes to choosing to be saved. Only God's will is mentioned on this.
Our wills are not free, but a slave to sin. The reference of taking of the water freely in Revelation 21:6 - “6 And he said unto me, ‘It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.'” is when the saints are already raptured incorruptible, in glory; not now, while still corruptible; besides, it is God who gives the water freely. We start out in the fleshly, carnal mind, not able to come to Christ of our own volition because Jesus says that none do. Period.

Jesus' Will: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." - 2 Peter 3:9.
Note that His promise is to us-ward (believers), not to all people, just the believers. Refer to 2 Peter 1:1 - "Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:" This verse gives us the context of just who Peter is addressing, and it is only the saints. In 2 Peter 3:9 above, we are the "us-ward" to whom Peter refers. No saints whom the Father gives to the Son shall be lost. If free will were employed, one must conclude either that Jesus failed to do His Father's will, or He has given the world universal salvation, where nobody goes to hell. The fact is, many are going to hell, Jesus is not failing His Father, so the only conclusion one can draw is that the Father gives those to Jesus whom He has chosen from the foundation of the world to be saved; those written from the foundation of the world into the Lamb's Book of Life - Revelation 13:8 and 17:8.
"And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people." - Luke 2:8. This could mean everybody or it could and likely does mean, every nation (as in nation, kindred, tongue and people expressed elsewhere in Scripture).
“15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.” - John 3:15-17.
These verses are often confused with preaching free will, but says nothing of will, free or otherwise. They do not infer free will, but are factual in context. They teach salvation by belief. Whosoever believes shall be saved. Whosoever won't believe, won't be saved. These are facts, future tense, not speaking of our will as being in control. Jesus' will is to save the whole world.

The Father's Will: "38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:38-40.
In John 17 Jesus prays to the Father, not for the world, but those whom the Father gives to Jesus out of the world, not only up to that time, but for all believers in the future as well (verses 20-21).
" 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." - John 6:37.
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." - John 6:44.
"64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.’
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him." - John 6:64-66.
"Jesus saith unto him, ‘I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.’" - John 14:6.

So, we can't come to the Father but by the Son, and we can't come to the Son except it be given to us of the Father; that He draws us to the Son, that He gives us to the Son, who will not cast us out for any reason and will raise us up at the last day. That all that the Father gives to Jesus shall come to Him. There is not even an inkling of man's responsibility or will involved here, neither indeed can be; it is all the work of God. Three wills, starting with the Father, completed by the Son with the Holy Spirit, and man who strives with God in this life, even after salvation.

When one believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior, it is a matter of fact that they are saved: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” - John 3:16 This verse does not teach salvation by any man’s will but as a matter of fact and teaches we are saved by belief in Jesus. Remember when Jesus prayed in the garden at Gethsename He prayed not for the world (which God so loved), but for those who are the Father’s; for they alone are His.

When hearing the Gospel, it must be understood, not to put it in some sort of nutshell. There are many ways the Bible explains the Gospel according to the dispensations of the times and people to whom each expression of the Gospel is delivered. The Bible is God’s gift to the world to understand that Jesus is the “Redeemer that liveth,” to believe on Him by His word, thus be saved from sin, death, and eternal damnation in the lake of fire. Most of the world does not believe, and no believer believes of their own accord, but according to the will of the Father.

DeaconDean · Sep 24, 2018

MDC said:
God gives grace according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1:5. Otherwise it’s not grace at all. The arbitrary/random assertion is an understanding that comes from a prideful heart. Simply because you believe grace is earned in someway. Do you believe sinful mankind is deserving of such grace? Is God unjust to show mercy on some and not all? According to this free will theology you are promoting, you do correct? Foreknowledge according to you is actually foreseen merit and actions God basis salvation in. That’s not taught in scripture. This is nothing more than a ploy to promote works based salvation and a man centered theology which nullifies grace all together and does away with the gospel of Christ

No matter what, you cannot argue with an Arminian.

We can show beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is nothing more than a man centered theology.

The fall did not hurt mans will. It only "fractured" it.

Arminianism sees something within man that is still good.

Arminianism teaches that while God takes the first move towards man, it is man and his free will that ultimately plays the deciding factor in salvation.

Arminianism teaches that God is not Sovereign, He is not entitled as "Creator" or the great "I AM" to do as He pleases.

Arminianism's man centered theology teaches that God absolutely must be merciful to the entire world without exception. Except they forget that unless you were a Hebrew/Jew in the OT, you were excluded from the blessings of God. Not to mention the BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS in the world before Christ's advent that died not knowing God.

Arminianism teaches that God is arbitrary, choses at "random", a lot like picking a name out of a hat, regarding "election". In that fashion, they justify their man centered theology. In spite of what scriptures say in Eph. 1:5.

And they forget, that the God of Arminianism, is much that same as the God of Calvinists, with one exception. IN Arminianism, you can know the mind of God, and Calvinists don't make that claim.

Based upon God's "foreknowledge" of who will or will not accept, believe, and persevere, and those who don't, are either elected, or damned.

And once again, if God uses His infinite "foreknowledge" of who will and who wont accept and believe, that betrays the man centered theology of Arminianism. Those elected because of foreknowledge of faith, have don't something that would "merit" God's favor in electing them.

Arminianism is a man centered theology, plain and simple.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Steven Beck · Aug 10, 2019

Tree of Life said:
However, Calvinism affirms that God is so magnificent that any true apprehension of God would immediately yield repentance. If a person truly sees God for who He is then they cannot but repent. God's grace - his revelation of himself - is irresistible because God is so beautiful. So those who, in the end, deny God have never truly apprehended him.

Riiiiiight! You do know that Lucifer + 1/3rd of the angels rebelled in the presence of God and you think mankind cannot do the same? I think you need to rethink your ideas.

Steven Beck · Aug 10, 2019

DeaconDean said:
Arminianism is a man centered theology, plain and simple.

Calvinism was formulated by a man who murdered a brother in Christ in a horrible way. John Calvin could not stand anyone disagreeing with his flawed theology. The heart of Calvinism is election for salvation and there is not one single line of scripture that supports this view.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Calvinists think this is a mistake and should read, "For by election..." Of course we need to scrub 'faith' since election doesn't need faith to operate.

Calvinism mocks the work of Christ on the cross and turns the truth of God into a lie. Who do we know who does this? Uhm LUCIFER.

Anto9us · Aug 11, 2019

Anyone who is not OF THE ELECT
should leave this thread immediately.

Steven Beck · Aug 11, 2019

Anto9us said:
Anyone who is not OF THE ELECT
should leave this thread immediately.

Why? Afraid of biblical truth? We are elected for an office e.g. Minister or we are elected for a purpose e.g. Holy and Blameless but nobody is elected for Salvation. Otherwise show a verse which directly links election with salvation.

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Let's start with these propositions.
1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Thank you! Yes!

God plans and then executes the spin
of each electron in the Cosmos and
also holds each electron in it's cloud orbit.

Colossians 1
16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Hebrews 1
3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

1 Corinthians 13
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; ...

Romans 8
28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,
for those who are called according to his purpose.

Unlike all other forces (electromagnetic, weak, and gravitational), the strong force does not diminish in strength with increasing distance but, thank God, increases.

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

Perhaps He has done this just to get you to create this post.
Not knowing the intended outcome, it's not possible to evaluate the method.

God is not even involved in your Torment in Hell. It's all you.

Mountainmanbob · Aug 11, 2019

Anto9us said:
Anyone who is not OF THE ELECT
should leave this thread immediately.

Careful may be more than you think?
Might get lonely out there?
M-Bob

Bobber · Aug 14, 2019

DeaconDean said:
No matter what, you cannot argue with an Arminian.

We can show beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is nothing more than a man centered theology.

And if others see the shadows and don't think your arguments are reasonable they're to yeild to your thoughts as if you were God?

The fall did not hurt mans will. It only "fractured" it.

Aren't you confusing will with nature? Yes man's nature degenerated but to what degree? That's the question. You are aware that people can be bound with whatever but still have the capacity to want to be free? Calvinism denies this but it's true none the less.

Arminianism teaches that while God takes the first move towards man, it is man and his free will that ultimately plays the deciding factor in salvation.

A potential spouse may ask another to marry them. Usually it's the man who asks the woman. For the reason that he loves her is he wrong to allow her to decide yea or nay on coming into a relationship?

Arminianism teaches that God is not Sovereign,

Or do Non-Calvinist merely have a different belief on just what Sovereignty means? You might consider that's the case.

He is not entitled as "Creator" or the great "I AM" to do as He pleases.

And if it actually pleases God to allow men a choice why do you stand in the way of what pleases God in saying he can't do this? This would fall under the theme of God's sovereign right to do this if he wants.

Arminianism is a man centered theology, plain and simple.

Or maybe that criticism actually is swinging towards the Calvinist way. It seems you folk believe there's something special or unique that is desirable as compared to others when it comes to salvation. It's not because of just Christ but there's something about you to which makes you worthy of salvation. Sorry but I'd have to suggest that's as man centered as you can get.

God Bless

And you too my friend...and you too!

Steven Beck · Aug 14, 2019

Bobber said:
Or do Non-Calvinist merely have a different belief on just what Sovereignty means? You might consider that's the case.

Various cults (and I consider Calvinism a cult) fall back on God's sovereignty when they get stuck. It is a kind of lazy persons theology. Is God sovereign? Well yes. Is God a totalitarian? Uhm doesn't look like it. Therefore God's sovereignty allows freedom of choice. Calvinists don't get it.

I forgot to mention that the Totalitarian One is Lucifer/Satan.

BNR32FAN · Aug 14, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
I'm a Calvinist, who has a big problem with the Arminian/ semi-Pelagian soteriology espoused by non-Calvinists, be they Methodists, Roman Catholics, Orthodoxy believers, Assemblies of God folks, etc.

ILLOGICAL

Let's start with these propositions.

1. God is the all-powerful Creator of us all.
2. God is all-wise; He does not make mistakes.
3. God is all-knowing.

Taken together, this means that God knowingly, willingly and deliberately creates billions of people who He knows will suffer eternal agony and torment in the fires of Hell, He creates the reprobate with full knowledge of their eternal fate beforehand.

And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

Does He create them in the hopes that they will believe on Him? Obviously not, because He is omniscient, has perfect, infallible knowledge, and has always known that they will not believe on Him. By creating the souls of these people with perfect knowledge they will never believe, that means that He is essentially sealing their fate by the mere act of creating them.

So it makes no sense to say that He truly desires their salvation when He intentionally creates them in such circumstances with the knowledge that they will never believe.

UNBIBLICAL

The Bible makes it crystal-clear that the reason why we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His Gospel is because God the Father determines beforehand that we will, He predestines us to be Christians and holy and have refuge under His Son. Repentance is something God grants us, it's a gift, so is our faith. It also teaches double predestination.

2 Timothy 2:25 - in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,

Jeremiah 1:5 - Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nation.

Acts 13:48 - Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. [Probably the best Calvinist verse: we are appointed to eternal life, and then we believe the Gospel, not the other way around. God chooses, elects ordains us to life everlasting, and then we believe. Really goes with Ephesians and Romans 9:11]

Ephesians 1:4-5 - just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

Ephesians 1:11 - In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Galatians 1:15 - But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,

2 Timothy 1:8-9 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Proverbs 16:4 - The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Romans 9:11 - (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

Romans 9:21-23
Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,

Romans 8:28-30 - And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Now, non-Calvinists will often point to small prooftexts in order to prove that Jesus died and paid for the sins of every single person who lives in the world without exception, using verses such as 1 Timothy 2:3-4, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:2, where the words "whole world" or "all men" are used, and it says God desires "all men" to be saved.

If you quote the whole of 2 Peter 3 instead of that one verse, you'll see it's talking about a definite group, not every single person in the world without exception:

2 Peter 3:1-9
Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The author is talking about as specific group here; namely, born-again believers in Jesus Christ, of which he is a part, "you" the "beloved", "us". When he says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should repent, it also says that He is longsuffering toward "us", and the us is referring to the elect, to believers, it's not referring to every single human being in the world. God is not willing that any of *us* should perish, any of the believers in His Son Jesus Christ. The passage is directed to the elect, God's chosen children.

But when read in context, it is clear that when it says all men, it is referring to all men without distinction, men from every social status, ethnic group, and nation. Jesus paid for the sins of all types of people from every race, economic wealth, etc. The following verse exemplifies this:

Revelation 5:9 -
And they sang a new song, saying:

"You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,"

“I got home late last night to find that someone had eaten all the cookies.”

“The mother told her child that she expected all the dishes to be washed.”

“There’s a guy in my office that talks about politics all the time.”

Obviously, we all the common sense to realize that the people are not saying that every single dish that exists on planet Earth, or every cookie that exists, was eaten by the child or washed by the child.

Scripture must mesh with other Scripture. And other Scripture makes it clear that God died for a definite group of people and predestines people to salvation, others to damnation.

We evangelize because God has ordained the means as well as the ends, because faith comes by hearing.

If God’s election is true then...

1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us?

2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?

3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?

4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?

5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation?

6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?

7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?

8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?

9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?

10. Romans 11 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. Why would anyone be grafted in if they are not chosen by God and will fall from grace?

11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?

12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?

13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?

14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?

“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

Colossians 1:21-23 NASB

BNR32FAN · Aug 14, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
But why would an all-knowing, all-wise, all-powerful God created the souls of billions of people that He knows fully well, before He even creates them, will reject His Son Jesus as Savior, and die in their sins and be consigned to everlasting torment in a fiery dungeon, Hell, if that were the case?

God desires our love. Love is the only thing we can offer Him that is of any value to Him. Love is a gift given freely. What value would our love have if it wasn’t given of our own free will? Free will in no way impedes on God’s sovereignty if God had decreed it to be that way.

BNR32FAN · Aug 14, 2019

JerseyChristianSuperstar said:
And according to the non-Calvinist, God desires the salvation of every single human being who lives and ever will live without exception.

Yes this is exactly what the scriptures say in 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9.

Mountainmanbob · Aug 14, 2019

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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