Faith Alone

Do you believe that faith alone justifies?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 65.8%
  • No

    Votes: 13 34.2%

  • Total voters
    38

Guojing

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There is no harmony in this kind of belief. To say that works do not save and yet a saving faith will always have works is contradictory. If a true faith will always have works then we must conclude that works play a part in our salvation because we cannot have a saving faith without works.

Its more of a circular argument to me, which is common whenever anyone tries to reconcile Paul with James.
 
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I understood your point, all I'm saying is though some would treat them like you say, there are some that genuinely treat them like they would anyone else.
I saw a good quote in my reading of John Flavell, a very well known Puritan divine, especially well known for his powerful evangelistic ministry. He said that teaching duty (that is, doing what God requires of us) through admonition is one things, but teaching duty by doing it is quite another. What I get from that is that many teach how we should do the things that improve holiness without actually following their own teaching; and there are others who teach holiness by example in their own lives. The latter is genuine, while the former is a hypocrite.
And I would have to disagree that Jesus's sole reason for telling us to obey is to show us we cannot. We are to obey just as he says. There's just no biblical backing to not sincerely trying to obey. That was my point about forgiveness if we fall short, but don't do as many around here do and go with the thought "we all sin, so we might as well just sin and not worry about it". Those that do that are just fooling themselves out of heaven, and all so they can do as they wish and still make it to heaven.
Jesus taught things that were really impossible to perfectly obey in our own strength. He said that our righteousness needs to exceed that of the Pharisees, who were to all intents and purposes perfect in their obedience to the Law. Paul, while he was a Pharisee, and the Rich Young Ruler are two examples, and Jesus said of the latter when he told Jesus that he had followed the Law perfectly from his youth up, Jesus told him that he did well, though there was just one more thing he had to do to become a disciple, which was something that the Law did not require him to do. It was not against the Law to be rich. Jesus, told him to do something which he could not do.

So, if the Pharisees, followed the Law more perfectly than we could ever do, then it would be impossible for us to exceed their righteousness regardless of all our efforts to be holier than them. That's the whole point. If the personal righteousness of the Pharisees was not good enough, then ours would be absolutely nowhere near it! So, the righteousness that pleases God has to on a different basis.
That may conveniently "come to mind" in order to serve your purpose, but saying those who say we must be in compliance to the law and follow Jesus commands in order to be saved is firstly, the way you put it, probably doesn't ever get said as you claim. What they really say is what we all know to be true...follow Jesus's commands but we will make mistakes and that's covered if we simply sincerely ask. I'll make my point by asking you to show me where anyone who said we must flat out keep Jesus's commands/comply to the law in order to be saved, precisely what you said they say. See it's those little parts you/OSAS leaves out in order to create a problem that isn't there, and to falsely make us the bad guy. That type thing happens all too often here, I'm always stating OSAS doesn't play fair, and that fact shows their heart. It's all about making OSAS ok no matter what we have to do.
The problem is that many who have come into Christianity through the "easy believerism" way (which is not through the narrow gate, but over the wall), have not experienced conviction of sin in the way that is needed for a person to have total faith in Christ for salvation. How can a person see the gospel as good news and to be totally reliant on Christ unless he clearly sees the bad news about himself in relation to the standards of God? The basic message of the Bible is to show us how absolutely sinful and deserving of hell we really are. Unless we see that and are deeply affected by it that we start crying out to God from our hearts for mercy and forgiveness, we will never know what real Christianity is. All we would have is just some religious hobby with a Christian flavour to it. All we would have is a "take it or leave it" religion that has not really go through to our hearts.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not singling you out, many here do that. Another point is, since OSAS doesn't have to be good they won't, I see it all the time here by the way they carry themselves in argument, and the things they will do to try to do away with the truth.
While I believe in eternal security for the genuine believer, I don't hold to the idea that anyone who just decides to put on a Christian badge is eternally secure. Many can adopt Christianity through their minds and emotions, and appear to be committed Christians, but their hearts may be unchanged, and remaining as evil as they ever were. This is because they want to have some kind of Christian profession and their favourite lusts as well. It is like the Rich Young Ruler. He wanted to be a disciple of Jesus but hold on to his riches as well. While there is nothing wrong with having wealth as long as one's heart is not in it, Jesus could see that wealth was his heart's treasure, and in his case, while his heart is in his wealth, he could not be a true disciple of Jesus as well. That's what was the downfall of Judas. He was an outward disciple, but in his heart he was a thief and a hypocrite. But all of the other 11 disciples never saw his hypocrisy, only Jesus saw right into Judas' heart and saw what he really was.

My view is when a person has experienced true and deep conviction of his personal sinfulness and ruined state, when he falls on Christ through faith and receives mercy and grace, the last thing he would want to do is to return to his former state. He will keep holding fast to Christ by faith all his life. Such a person will have eternal security, because his sole security will be in Christ alone and that will never change.

Most professing Christians who fall away, when examined, will reveal that there was one aspect of their lives they would not surrender to Christ and so when the pressure went on, they chose their own desire rather than to continue with Christ.

Jesus made a huge effort by doing as God said he must in order to find out if we were sincere enough to live with them in paradise for ever. Point being, he didn't just say "do what you like, it's not going to hurt you a bit", and he didn't say it because he doesn't want a bunch of insincere heathens in heaven, and that fact, if it actually were a fact is what makes people into insincere heathens, they think it won't hurt their salvation, at least in their minds. Believing we can do as we like, does nothing but hinder our chances. And no, I'm not being a Pharisee there, it should go without saying, if I do those things I'll be in the same boat as anyone else.
No one is saying that we should do just as we like. The unconverted person cannot do what he wants because he is in bondage to his sinful lusts. He thinks he is free to do what he wants, but he will always involve himself in one sin or another, and will always choose to rebel against God and His standards, because he has no other choice. He is a slave to sin.

The genuine believer has been set free to choose to follow Christ and a holy life before God, because that is his heart's desire. He is free to the led by the Holy Spirit (not forced). The Holy Spirit never manipulates, intimidates, or forces anyone to do anything. He sets forth the way of life and encourages believers to walk in it. An unbeliever or a hypocrite may see the way of life, but cannot walk in it, because his heart will always incline him to the way of his sinfulness, and the sinful way is the desire of his heart. The heart's desire of a genuine believer is the way of holiness before the Lord, even though he cannot follow it perfectly. King Asa did not do all that was right in the sight of God, but the Scriptural record says that his heart was perfect before the Lord. There was another king who did everything that was right in the sight of the Lord, but his heart was not perfect, and he only did what was right while his priest uncle was alive. When the uncle died, the king chose idolatry.

Here is another of those twists...You say we are like the Pharisees, but why? What exactly did we, or whoever your accusing, do? You'd like to think those who teach something you may not like, we're like the Pharisees, when you have no idea who here is doing what, that's another creation. It's just another ploy to try to make us look bad in your own minds and to others, and in turn make it appear what we teach is wrong since we are a Pharisee. How do you know they don't make an effort, and actually comply where you indicate they do not? What was the tip off, because you want to believe it or because we actually do something to make you believe we are? Maybe you can show us who and why they meet the criteria the be a Pharisee? Sure there are people like that, else Christ would not have said it, but seems to me your trying to make is seem a general rule here, as in, anyone who simply tries to convey what they believe is true, is now a Pharisee, meaning they are bad, and what we teach is bad, when in reality there zero basis for the claim...just as there was zero basis for saying anyone here says we have to be compliant to the law while they actually say something quite differently.
The Pharisees were the most committed Bible believers and teachers of their time. Not all of them were bad people. Some were good, upright, honest, and sincere. I think that Paul sincerely followed what he believed was God's way as he saw it in the Scriptures he had. He was not a hypocrite. He lived what he believed.

My definition of a hypocrite is one who teaches others to be holy, but does not intend to apply what he teaches in his own life. It is like a preacher who teaches against alcohol and domestic violence, and then goes home, gets drunk and beats up his wife and children. He is an angel at church but a devil at home.

I don't teach holiness when I have opportunity to preach, because I know I am not a holy person. I would be a hypocrite if I taught that people needed to be perfect in their compliance with the commands of Jesus, because I have difficulties complying with them myself. But I will teach total faith, dependence and confidence in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to develop sanctification in us day by day, because I depend totally on Christ to do His workmanship in me.

You didn't seem to mind being blunt accusing people of being a Pharisee and such, and FWIW, I'm not the least bit offended, but I hope you can deal with my simply being blunt.
I think we need to be blunt when dealing with hypocrisy, because such people are self-deceived and will experience the horrors of hell in eternity. Paul says that knowing the terror of the Lord we persuade men. This means that because we know what will happen to a hypocrite, then when we face up to someone whom we believe is leading a hypocritical life and probably get rejected and even a punch in the nose for it, then we can know that we have set the right way before them in the same way that the Holy Spirit is doing the same every day of their lives, and every day a hypocrite rejects the true path to holiness and tries to maintain an outward appearance of religion, the wrath of God is mounting up against him day by day, until it will be poured out on him on the day of judgment. This is why we should be honest and open in describing hypocrisy and warning others, because we will never know that we might be making the difference between heaven and hell for someone.
 
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redleghunter

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How about a little CONTEXT:

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved/accounted as righteous "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. So if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :)
Concrete and logical.
 
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Its more of a circular argument to me, which is common whenever anyone tries to reconcile Paul with James.
We must remember that Paul's ministry is to the gentiles who had no background in Judaism and the ten commandments. His view was that those who had faith in Christ, had the Holy Spirit working in them to produce the type of works that God ordained that they would have. He contrasted he works of the flesh, and the fruit of the Spirit. The works that Paul spoke that should follow true faith are those in harmony with the fruit of the Spirit. The Apostle John made it more straightforward and simple: works motivated by love for God and for others.

James, on the other hand, had his background in Judaism and was very much aware of the Law and the Commandments. His teaching on faith and works did not contradict Paul's. He supplemented it. He was aware that the good works that came out of complying with the moral law had to come through the working of the Holy Spirit within the person. He would totally have agreed with Paul in that the good works do not arise out of self-righteous effort. But his view contradicts easy believerism which limits faith to mere religious talk. He said that it is not enough to talk the talk, but he has to walk the walk as well. This is totally in harmony with Paul who said that if we live in the Spirit, we need to walk in the Spirit. The Apostle John called it walking in the light as Jesus is in the light.

Therefore Paul, James, and John would all agree that the genuine believer exercising faith in Christ would show his true heart in the way he walks the walk, loves others, and shows the fruit of the Spirit in his life.
 
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Guojing

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He would totally have agreed with Paul in that the good works do not arise out of self-righteous effort. But his view contradicts easy believerism which limits faith to mere religious talk. He said that it is not enough to talk the talk, but he has to walk the walk as well. This is totally in harmony with Paul who said that if we live in the Spirit, we need to walk in the Spirit. The Apostle John called it walking in the light as Jesus is in the light.

I don't see how anyone can conclude what you have stated above, once they have read Acts 21.

James clearly disagreed with Paul when it comes to how Jews are to be justified before God. He is fine with Gentiles being free from the Law though. The book of James was written before the events in Acts 21.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
 
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I don't see how anyone can conclude what you have stated above, once they have read Acts 21.

James clearly disagreed with Paul when it comes to how Jews are to be justified before God. He is fine with Gentiles being free from the Law though. The book of James was written before the events in Acts 21.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
The Scripture says that there is no longer any Jew or Gentile, but all are under Christ. Therefore anyone, including a Jew who combines keeping the Law with faith in Christ has no interest in Christ at all, but is bound to keep the whole Law without fault, otherwise he is under a curse.
 
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Guojing

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The Scripture says that there is no longer any Jew or Gentile, but all are under Christ. Therefore anyone, including a Jew who combines keeping the Law with faith in Christ has no interest in Christ at all, but is bound to keep the whole Law without fault, otherwise he is under a curse.

True but you are speaking from hindsight.

My point is that James did not realize this until much later after he wrote his letter, that is, if he realized it at all during his lifetime, since scripture is silent there.

So when one read the book of James, we cannot read it under the assumption that James have already read Paul's letters and understood them.
 
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Danthemailman

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First, again, that does not undo the problem of the word "justified" being used in two different ways to support your belief here.
It's not a problem, as I already explained in post #127. Your problem is you teach salvation by works. Your arguments sound very similar to Roman Catholicism. Where do you attend church?

You believe the word "justified" in relation to faith is dealing with salvation, but you conveniently do not believe this is the case with the same word used in the same sentence involving works. So you are not being consistent here with the word "justified."
I certainly am being consistent after considering the CONTEXT of James 2:24 and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. You conveniently ignored the CONTEXT of James 2:24 and the end result is salvation by works in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Second, James says in the first chapter this:

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).​

So you have to endure temptation to receive the crown of life.
You must not confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture. Genuine believers endure trials, pains, heartaches, and temptations always looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith and receive the crown of life. There are multiple crowns mentioned in scripture. The Imperishable Crown (1 Corinthians 9:24-25), The Crown of Rejoicing (1 Thessalonians 2:19), The Crown of Righteousness (2 Timothy 4:8), The Crown of Glory (1 Peter 5:4). Notice that James said the Lord has promised the crown of life to them that love Him. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. Believers love Him because He first loved us (1 John 4:19). The love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:5)

James also says,

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."
(James 1:21).​

James says we need to do two things that is able to save our souls.

#1. Lay apart all filthiness, superfluity of naughtiness (Which is no doubt sinful things).

#2. Receive with meekness the engrafted Word (The Living Word).
You are reading this verse through the lens of salvation by works. Your best efforts to clean up your act (in of itself) apart from saving faith in Christ is not going to save you. Your logic would then call for sinless perfection as the basis or means of becoming saved. Putting away filthiness and wickedness pictures the stripping off of dirty clothes and receiving the implanted word that must take root in our heart. The AMPC explains it well - So get rid of all uncleanness and the rampant outgrowth of wickedness, and in a humble (gentle, modest) spirit receive and welcome the Word which implanted and rooted [in your hearts] contains the power to save your souls.

John 15:3 - You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
 
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Danthemailman

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There is no harmony in this kind of belief. To say that works do not save and yet a saving faith will always have works is contradictory. If a true faith will always have works then we must conclude that works play a part in our salvation because we cannot have a saving faith without works.
There certainly is harmony in this kind of belief as I already explained in post #127. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all would demonstrate that there is no root. Nothing contradictory about that at all. You have the tail wagging the dog, the cart before the horse. We cannot have works without a saving faith. Faith produces works and not the other way around. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of true saving faith, but not the essence of true saving faith and not the means of our salvation.
 
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Danthemailman

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James makes a point how we are justified by works before God because he uses Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac as an example. There were no men present to be justified before men when Abraham offered his son Isaac. By Abraham's obedience, God blessed Abraham in a great way. Just read again the story in Genesis and you will be able to check these facts for yourself. So this means that Abraham was justified by works before GOD and not men. This means his works had merit before GOD.
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham in Genesis 22 did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. *Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. :oldthumbsup:

For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). That is what James compares a belief alone to.
In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

He says faith is dead if it has no works (James 2:17). A faith that has no works is like that of the faith of demons, and it is dead. That is the kind of faith that James condemns. So how can this kind of faith that has no works save? It cannot.
As I already explained, faith that has no works is an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith, as we see from James 2:14 - "says/claims" (key word) to have faith but has no works. We are not saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. We are saved by faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and this kind of faith results in producing works, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Not hard to understand. Just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.
 
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Danthemailman

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So you are saying that "justified" is not related to salvation or it is related to salvation? Either way, it does not help you. If you say that "justified" is not related to salvation, you will then have to admit that "being justified by faith" does not deal with salvation (Which contradicts other Scripture verses that suggests this; For example Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"). If you say that the word "justified" is related to salvation, then you must conclude that this one word is referring to faith AND works. Either way, you are faced with a conundrum.
As I already explained, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

When Paul uses the term "justified" he is referring to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer's faith as righteousness. (Romans 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1) James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. (James 2:21,24).

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, (accounted as righteous) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
*Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be.

James 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified (shown to be righteous) by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
*Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered.

If "justified by works" in James 2:21,24 means "saved by works/accounted as righteous," then we have a CONTRADICTION in scripture and there are no contradictions in scripture. Those who teach salvation by faith AND works are faced with a conundrum.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.
 
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It's not a problem, as I already explained in post #127.

I believe Eternal Security Proponents, Belief Alone Proponents, and or Sin and Still Be Saved Type Believers contradict themselves when it comes to explaining James 2:24 in light of Paul's statements in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, etc.; They want salvation to be by a belief alone (faith), but then they contradict themselves by saying that a faith will always have works. Even if works did not save in and of themselves, they would still be a requirement for salvation if a true faith that saves always has works. This is where I believe their belief is a circular contradiction.

The failed equation is this:

1. Faith Alone = Salvation.
2. Works of Faith = No Salvation.
3. A True Saving Faith Always Has Works.

These statements cannot be reconciled so as to work in harmony together.
#3 is saying, "Faith = Eventual Works of Faith." They will always be there. That's a true faith. One cannot be saved by a Faith without works if #3 is to be true. So one is saying they need works in order to be saved. If one truly believes works do not save, then no works should be necessary at any point of the life of the believer and a belief alone should be sufficient to maintain their salvation over the entirety of their whole lives.

You said:
Your problem is you teach salvation by works.

No. I don't believe I am saved solely saved by works alone (Which is a false accusation). I believe the Bible teaches that we are saved by two works of God (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). In the first salvific work of God: We are saved initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ and believing in His death and resurrection on our behalf. This can include many cases in seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus, as well. This is "Justification" and it is the work of God. But we have to receive this work. God does not force it upon us. Our receiving this work (of our own free will) does not undo this work of God, and nor does it take away from His glory. For it is the work of the Lord. In the second salvific work of God: We enter into the process called "Sanctification." This is a work of God whereby all three persons of the Trinity or the Godhead move within the life of the believer to produce good works (Which are the works of God within the life of a believer and it is not the works of the believer of their own effort alone). This second work of God is not forced upon the believer, but it under the cooperation of the believer in their surrendering to God and His good ways according to His Word. God ultimately does the good work through them. Man cannot boast or take credit for this kind of work as per Ephesians 2:9. For it is the kind of work that he was created unto Christ Jesus to do since the foundation of the world (Ephesians 2:10). For Ephesians 2:9, and Ephesians 2:10 are talking about two different kinds of works. Verse 9 is a Man Directed Work (that attempts to replace God's grace), and verse 10 is a God Directed Work (that comes after God's saving grace). Eternal Security Proponent's have told me before that doing good works as a part of salvation takes away from what Christ has done for us and His glory. But Christ's sacrifice is not diminished and neither is God's glory diminished in the Sanctification process. For grace reigns (rules) through righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21) (See also Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:11-12). In fact, we glorify God by the good works that shine forth within in our lives (See: Matthew 5:16).

You said:
Your arguments sound very similar to Roman Catholicism.

Guilt by association is not always true. Just because Catholics believe in the Trinity, does not mean the Trinity is not true. Truth is determined by God's Word alone (i.e. the Bible).

You said:
Where do you attend church?

My wife and I have recently found a Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church that appears to defend Sanctification as a part of salvation (Note: I strive to limit the details of my personal life on the internet as much as possible because not everyone has other people's best interests at heart). Anyways, Trinitarian Sola Scriptura churches that promote Sanctification as a part of salvation are rare to find these days, and seem almost non-existent. One church I would like to attend is on the Eastern seaboard. They are called: "Christ's Sanctified Holy Church." They are very far away from where I live. So I would have to make a special vacation trip to attend (if that is the Lord's will). They are the only Trinitarian Sola Scriptura church that more clearly shares the same view of salvation as me (that is somewhat significant in size).

Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord

But no church has taught me what I know today. I do not believe that the receiving of the knowledge of God's Word is by being spoon fed by feel good messages on Sundays. We have to each study God's Word (in our own time) to show ourselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15). We also learn from the Spirit, as well (1 John 2:27), and not in the wisdom of men (1 Corinthians 2:13).

You said:
I certainly am being consistent after considering the CONTEXT of James 2:24 and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine. You conveniently ignored the CONTEXT of James 2:24

I disagree. I believe the context of James clearly shows that it is talking about salvation.

#1. Enduring temptation = Receiving the crown life (salvation) - James 1:12.
#2. Lay apart all filthiness (sin) = Saving your souls (salvation) - James 1:22.
#3. Not bridling the tongue = Man's religion is in vain (loss of salvation) - James 1:26.
#4. James 2:1-13 is James condemnation on these particular brethren who had respect of persons by giving favor to the rich brethren and yet they showed no favor to the poor brethren. James said that if they have respect of persons like this, they commit sin, and they are in essence breaking all of God's laws in the fact that they are not loving their neighbor. James 2:13 says, "There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you." (James 2:13) (NLT). Verse 13 is describing a loss of salvation if one does not love their neighbor by having respect of persons. This leads into the point of James saying that faith without works is dead (James 2:17), and that we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24).

This is why Luther said the book of James is an epistle of straw. For it did not agree with his teaching that tell us to, "sin boldly" or that says, "No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."

You said:
and the end result is salvation by works in contradiction to (Romans 4:2-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

These portions of Scripture are not saying that Sanctification is not a necessary secondary work of God done in the life of the believer after one is saved by God's grace. These portions of Scripture are saying we are not saved by "Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism" (without God's grace). Why would Paul speak in such a way?

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

At the Jerusalem council, we learn clearly about this heresy. For at this council we learn that a certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised and to follow all of the Old Law (which is no more) to be saved.

  • Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” ................................................................................
  • Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."..................................................................................................................................................
  • Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

We see hints of Paul also speaking against "Circumcision Salvationism" (that was more clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council) in his letters here:

  1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”

  2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”

  3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”

  4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”

  5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)

  6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”

  7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”

  8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”

  9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In Romans 4:2-6: Paul is speaking against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Works Alone Salvationism that sought to undermine how we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace). Romans 3:1, Paul says, "what profit is there in circumcision?" In Romans 4: Paul then talks about the order of how Abraham was justified and what thing was accounted to him as righteousness. In Romans 4:9-12, we learn that it was by faith first that Abraham was justified by and it was accounted to him as righteousness, and it was not in circumcision. Why would Paul bring up circumcision as being the next thing AFTER faith? Because a certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Christians into thinking they had to be circumcised first in order to be saved instead of having faith in Jesus Christ and His grace as the first thing that they needed.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking primarily about "Initial Salvation." For how many times do you receive a gift? One time, right? So this means it is a one time initial thing (i.e. Initial Salvation). Ephesians 2:1 says that we have been quickened. How many times does that happen? Is that continual? Or is Paul speaking of a one time event? I believe Paul here is talking about a one time event of salvation here (i.e. Initial Salvation). Ephesians 2:10 mentions what must happen after we are saved.

Titus 3:5 is in part talking about "Initial Salvation."

The context before verse 5 says this:

3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared," (Titus 3:3-4).

Verse 3 is talking about our old life.
Verse 4 is talking about what happens when the Savior appeared.
There is no mention here about Sanctification or Continued Salvation after one is saved by God's grace in Titus 3:5.

2 Timothy 1:9 is again talking about Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism, and Initial Salvation. This has to be the interpretive view of this verse because if it wasn't then 2 Timothy 3:1-9 would not be true. Meaning, believers can have a form of godliness and deny the power thereof and still be saved. But this is said of those who men who are lovers of pleasures more than are lovers of God in the last days.

Anyways, my time is limited, and I have other things I need to do today that are important. I am not sure I will have time to address the rest of this post in the way that I would like (Note: I will give a quick reply to your other two posts because they appear to make some quick points that I can address briefly).

In any event, may God's love and peace be upon you (even if we disagree strongly over what the Bible says).
 
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As I already explained, man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:

When Paul uses the term "justified" he is referring to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the believer's faith as righteousness. (Romans 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1) James, however is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do. (James 2:21,24).

Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham was justified by works, (accounted as righteous) he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.
*Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be.

James 2:21 - Was not Abraham our father justified (shown to be righteous) by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
*Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered.

If "justified by works" in James 2:21,24 means "saved by works/accounted as righteous," then we have a CONTRADICTION in scripture and there are no contradictions in scripture. Those who teach salvation by faith AND works are faced with a conundrum.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

Again, only one word is used to refer to both faith and works in James 2:24, and this is the word "justified." You obviously believe being justified by faith is dealing with salvation. But James uses "justified" not only in reference to faith (Which deals with salvation), but he uses this same word in reference to works.
 
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I saw a good quote in my reading of John Flavell, a very well known Puritan divine, especially well known for his powerful evangelistic ministry. He said that teaching duty (that is, doing what God requires of us) through admonition is one things, but teaching duty by doing it is quite another. What I get from that is that many teach how we should do the things that improve holiness without actually following their own teaching; and there are others who teach holiness by example in their own lives. The latter is genuine, while the former is a hypocrite.

I can only think, I wish you'd a gotten more "from that"...like the whole picture.

Did you stop to think, the John you mention, was admonishing his readers when he told them that? Of course he was. He was doing exactly as you are now accusing me of, but it's OK for him, and he's not the hypocrite you are accusing me of being, because he gave you something to help shush those speaking the truth, while my doing exactly the same thing as he does, makes me a hypocrite? And you still have no idea what he does in his private life. Funny how we miss so much of the picture when it's not to our advantage to see it. Oh, and that's not to mention you have no idea what I do in my private life to be called a Pharisee, yet you are still pushing the idea. What is all that??

You said to "admonish" was to be a hypocrite, and while I can give you several reasons why that is dead wrong, I'll just leave it with the following. Not only does Christ/God admonish, and even threaten us with hell if we don't act as we should...but if anyone has a preacher/friend that doesn't admonish those who he feels is teaching a false doctrine that could not only damage others/themselves, but hurt them for eternity, then they need to change teachers/preachers, and get some new friends, some that care enough to get real with things.

Several questions:

Aren't you admonishing me? So that begs the question, is that OK for you, or are you also the hypocrite you accused me of being? Please tell me who exactly is the hypocrite you base your claims on, and why, because it is fast becoming very confusing who is who..

Do you and your admonishing John have rights some of us do not? If so, why? To me, it's clear we do not have right so speak up when our doctrine disagrees. Funny how that works, ain't it?

We should go by Jesus example, admonish/defend the word of God, AND live right. When the word of God reads differently than what is being taught, we need to not sit on our hands and do/say nothing.
To me, that's a given, yet you say, if we do so, we are hypocrites? Is not the real reason for calling others that, to discredit them because they don't teach the same as you? while you have never proven your way is correct, and never will even attempt it in a question answer debate, because you know better? That's the idea I get.

Jesus taught things that were really impossible to perfectly obey in our own strength.

Who here ever claimed we had to perfectly obey in order to get to heaven?

So, if the Pharisees, followed the Law more perfectly than we could ever do, then it would be impossible for us to exceed their righteousness regardless of all our efforts to be holier than them. That's the whole point. If the personal righteousness of the Pharisees was not good enough, then ours would be absolutely nowhere near it! So, the righteousness that pleases God has to on a different basis.

No, it does not have to be on "a different basis", you are making that up, and if not, prove it's a fact...fair enough? It's on the basis we sincerely try to be good, and he's working with, and forgiving us when we mess up because we are sincerely trying, just as a good parent would treat their child...so easy to understand. It's much simpler than deceitful twists and turns designed to make a way seem right when it is not right. You want to "please God"? Then listen:

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.". Seems to me, if reasonable effort to keep the commandments pleases Jesus, and he feels that's what shows we truly love him, then that's what we should do. Am I correct, or not, if not, why?

Many can adopt Christianity through their minds and emotions, and appear to be committed Christians, but their hearts may be unchanged, and remaining as evil as they ever were.

And as much as one may try to reject it "minds, emotions" AND actions are along the lines of what is expected. Action/works are what shows if we are sincere or not. Our mind can pretend, and our emotions can be no more than a show, or all that nothing but talk, while works prove their heart has changed. As many as may fight that fact, I think they know perfecly well that is true. Faith without works is dead, how many times do we have to say it? It really is in the bible, and it doesn't need a half page of talk to make it something else, it's already just what it is...simply.

My view is when a person has experienced true and deep conviction of his personal sinfulness and ruined state, when he falls on Christ through faith and receives mercy and grace, the last thing he would want to do is to return to his former state. He will keep holding fast to Christ by faith all his life. Such a person will have eternal security, because his sole security will be in Christ alone and that will never change.

And there it is, another cornerstone for the "Always saved" argument. as in:

"We must be saved because we are presently, and there is just no way anyone would turn away from salvation, hence we remain saved" when there is nothing further from the truth. Yet many just on CF alone makes the same exact claim...why? It's not because they got it from the bible, but because so many have chosen to believe what they are taught by men, here and elsewhere.

Again, I will prove my point..show me why that is your view, and using scripture to do so, please?

The temptations of the world take people from God all the time, the same reason some just don't bother with salvation to begin with. It's like saying, "Well, Ill give it a try", and they later decide it's not for them, as in:

Mathew 13:18

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


or

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

If that doesn't convince you, can you please show me the scripture that says the opposite of those verses, and that we can't actually fall away/lose salvation? Should be a simple as answering any question where you are correct.

No one is saying that we should do just as we like.

Except for the following comment, I'm not going to answer this and your few paragraphs following it, and simply because you did the same as people do so often here. Hidden somewhere in a comment is something that is assumed truth, when it was never proven true.

See, no one anywhere accused anyone of saying we "should" do as we like, they only say we can do what we like and still go to heaven/can't lose salvation. That may seem like only a small twist of the truth to some, but it's what all that follows in your comment rides upon, meaning none of it's going to be viable because, as I say, no one made the claim.

Sigh*

The Pharisees were the most committed Bible believers and teachers of their time. Not all of them were bad people. Some were good, upright, honest, and sincere. I think that Paul sincerely followed what he believed was God's way as he saw it in the Scriptures he had. He was not a hypocrite. He lived what he believed.

My definition of a hypocrite is one who teaches others to be holy, but does not intend to apply what he teaches in his own life. It is like a preacher who teaches against alcohol and domestic violence, and then goes home, gets drunk and beats up his wife and children. He is an angel at church but a devil at home.

I don't teach holiness when I have opportunity to preach, because I know I am not a holy person. I would be a hypocrite if I taught that people needed to be perfect in their compliance with the commands of Jesus, because I have difficulties complying with them myself. But I will teach total faith, dependence and confidence in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to develop sanctification in us day by day, because I depend totally on Christ to do His workmanship in me.

Yet, once again, you didn't answer my questions. Do as you wish, but if you want a debate, that has to happen. IOW if you can't show me where I'm wrong and you are right, the debate is useless, and all we have is what you call your view, an no proof the view is valid.

Oh, and I should add, who here teaches what you claim, in that they need "to be perfect in their compliance with the commands of Jesus" ... will you please show us, and more importantly, if you cannot show us, why do you make the claim?

QUOTE="Oscarr, post: 74209151, member: 105812"]I think we need to be blunt when dealing with hypocrisy,[/QUOTE]

Yet we still don't know who here are the hypocrites because you make the claims, which is fine, but when asked to show scripture or proof you are correct with such accusations, the replies/answers to the questioning are no where to be found. Again either prove what you claim, or not, but until then there is no way I'm going try to debate what I think are empty, unproven claims/accusations...it would be fruitless to do so.
 
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In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham in Genesis 22 did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. *Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. :oldthumbsup:

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

As I already explained, faith that has no works is an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith, as we see from James 2:14 - "says/claims" (key word) to have faith but has no works. We are not saved by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. We are saved by faith that trusts in Christ alone for salvation and this kind of faith results in producing works, yet we are still saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:5-10). Not hard to understand. Just hard for works-salvationists to ACCEPT.

I am not discounting that Abraham's faith that came first was not needed as a part of righteousness. That is where salvation starts. Faith in the Lord. But the story does not end there. Faith continues and it continues with it proving itself by obedience. We learn in Genesis 22, that God blesses Abraham descendants based upon his obedience. To a Jew, the continued blessing of a family line was favor with God. The Lord even says to Abraham that by his obedience, he now knows that He fears God. His faith was tested, and it passed by his obedience. No man was present to watch Abraham to pass his test whereby he could be justified before men. His act of obedience by faith was what justified him by works before God. James says that Abraham was justified by works.

As for James 2:19:

Parallels or parables are not meant to always be precise in every way exactly. It's a painted picture or a close parallel of having the wrong kind of faith that has no works, and it is not meant to be an exact description of those who believe in Jesus who have no good works to show for their faith. A belief alone in Jesus that does not love the poor brethren and gives favor to the rich brethren is like a dead faith, and it like the faith of demons. That is what James is saying in James chapter 2.
 
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I can only think, I wish you'd a gotten more "from that"...like the whole picture.

Did you stop to think, the John you mention, was admonishing his readers when he told them that? Of course he was. He was doing exactly as you are now accusing me of, but it's OK for him, and he's not the hypocrite you are accusing me of being, because he gave you something to help shush those speaking the truth, while my doing exactly the same thing as he does, makes me a hypocrite? And you still have no idea what he does in his private life. Funny how we miss so much of the picture when it's not to our advantage to see it. Oh, and that's not to mention you have no idea what I do in my private life to be called a Pharisee, yet you are still pushing the idea. What is all that??

You said to "admonish" was to be a hypocrite, and while I can give you several reasons why that is dead wrong, I'll just leave it with the following. Not only does Christ/God admonish, and even threaten us with hell if we don't act as we should...but if anyone has a preacher/friend that doesn't admonish those who he feels is teaching a false doctrine that could not only damage others/themselves, but hurt them for eternity, then they need to change teachers/preachers, and get some new friends, some that care enough to get real with things.

Several questions:

Aren't you admonishing me? So that begs the question, is that OK for you, or are you also the hypocrite you accused me of being? Please tell me who exactly is the hypocrite you base your claims on, and why, because it is fast becoming very confusing who is who..

Do you and your admonishing John have rights some of us do not? If so, why? To me, it's clear we do not have right so speak up when our doctrine disagrees. Funny how that works, ain't it?

We should go by Jesus example, admonish/defend the word of God, AND live right. When the word of God reads differently than what is being taught, we need to not sit on our hands and do/say nothing.
To me, that's a given, yet you say, if we do so, we are hypocrites? Is not the real reason for calling others that, to discredit them because they don't teach the same as you? while you have never proven your way is correct, and never will even attempt it in a question answer debate, because you know better? That's the idea I get.



Who here ever claimed we had to perfectly obey in order to get to heaven?



No, it does not have to be on "a different basis", you are making that up, and if not, prove it's a fact...fair enough? It's on the basis we sincerely try to be good, and he's working with, and forgiving us when we mess up because we are sincerely trying, just as a good parent would treat their child...so easy to understand. It's much simpler than deceitful twists and turns designed to make a way seem right when it is not right. You want to "please God"? Then listen:

John 14:15 "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.". Seems to me, if reasonable effort to keep the commandments pleases Jesus, and he feels that's what shows we truly love him, then that's what we should do. Am I correct, or not, if not, why?



And as much as one may try to reject it "minds, emotions" AND actions are along the lines of what is expected. Action/works are what shows if we are sincere or not. Our mind can pretend, and our emotions can be no more than a show, or all that nothing but talk, while works prove their heart has changed. As many as may fight that fact, I think they know perfecly well that is true. Faith without works is dead, how many times do we have to say it? It really is in the bible, and it doesn't need a half page of talk to make it something else, it's already just what it is...simply.



And there it is, another cornerstone for the "Always saved" argument. as in:

"We must be saved because we are presently, and there is just no way anyone would turn away from salvation, hence we remain saved" when there is nothing further from the truth. Yet many just on CF alone makes the same exact claim...why? It's not because they got it from the bible, but because so many have chosen to believe what they are taught by men, here and elsewhere.

Again, I will prove my point..show me why that is your view, and using scripture to do so, please?

The temptations of the world take people from God all the time, the same reason some just don't bother with salvation to begin with. It's like saying, "Well, Ill give it a try", and they later decide it's not for them, as in:

Mathew 13:18

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.


or

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

If that doesn't convince you, can you please show me the scripture that says the opposite of those verses, and that we can't actually fall away/lose salvation? Should be a simple as answering any question where you are correct.



Except for the following comment, I'm not going to answer this and your few paragraphs following it, and simply because you did the same as people do so often here. Hidden somewhere in a comment is something that is assumed truth, when it was never proven true.

See, no one anywhere accused anyone of saying we "should" do as we like, they only say we can do what we like and still go to heaven/can't lose salvation. That may seem like only a small twist of the truth to some, but it's what all that follows in your comment rides upon, meaning none of it's going to be viable because, as I say, no one made the claim.

Sigh*



Yet, once again, you didn't answer my questions. Do as you wish, but if you want a debate, that has to happen. IOW if you can't show me where I'm wrong and you are right, the debate is useless, and all we have is what you call your view, an no proof the view is valid.

Oh, and I should add, who here teaches what you claim, in that they need "to be perfect in their compliance with the commands of Jesus" ... will you please show us, and more importantly, if you cannot show us, why do you make the claim?

QUOTE="Oscarr, post: 74209151, member: 105812"]I think we need to be blunt when dealing with hypocrisy,

Yet we still don't know who here are the hypocrites because you make the claims, which is fine, but when asked to show scripture or proof you are correct with such accusations, the replies/answers to the questioning are no where to be found. Again either prove what you claim, or not, but until then there is no way I'm going try to debate what I think are empty, unproven claims/accusations...it would be fruitless to do so.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand why you are relating an objective discussion about whether or not faith alone in Christ is sufficient for justification subjectively to yourself, as if I am speaking directly about your standing with Christ.

The simple definition of a hypocrite is a person who says they are something they are not. Simple. The example I gave was a person who appears to be an angel at church but is a devil at home.

I drew the distinction between a person who has "got religion" through easy believerism, as if saying a prayer at the altar of a church actually gave them salvation. That's not faith in Christ at all. Salvation is not a matter of deciding to adopt the Christian religion, attend church, be involved in Christian work, live a moral life, be kind to animals, be concerned about the planet, and talk Christian talk. The same person could rise to become a deacon, pastor, or even a bishop! In actual fact, those things are not the core of embracing Christ, although they are the actions of a person who has embraced Christ - but they call all be the actions of a rank hypocrite as well!

Actually, and adulterer, murderer, and thief can all dress in the same three-piece suit as an honest, godly, genuine Christian believer, and so by appearance, one would not be able to tell them apart by appearances. Also, they can all be great church members and respected by all on Sundays at church, but their actions are very different when out of the public view. That is why hypocrites make every effort to appear to be very committed Christians, when, in reality, they are not.

The spooky thing is that we cannot tell the difference, because we cannot see into the heart of a person. Only God can.

It is impossible to be a genuine believer in Christ without coming to the full realisation of one's own absolute sinfulness, that he is a rebel, an enemy of God, a slave to sin, without hope, deserving of the full wrath of God and of a final future in hell. Also, there can be no salvation for the sinner unless there is a treaty between the sinner and God, involving the condition that the sinner puts his full faith and trust in the finished work of Christ and agrees to allow the Holy Spirit to take hold of his life so he can live for the glory of God.

If a person who thinks he has some good in him and some worthiness for God to accept him into the family of faith, which many who join the Christian do, and then wonder why it doesn't work satisfactorily for them, it is because he has come over the wall of easy believerism instead of through the narrow gate.

An "easy believer" will decide that the Christian life will be good for him, and he will saunter up to the altar, say a prayer and all will be well for him. But there will be no change of heart, and outside of the view of his fellow Christians, he will get on with his old life as before with its lusts. This is because he thinks he can have faith, which is not faith at all, but merely a mental belief and assent to the principles of Christianity.

The narrow gate is only shown to those who know they are absolute, hopeless, helpless sinners and enemies of God, deserving of wrath and hell. It is this realisation that causes a person to groan, pray, and cry out to God for mercy. It is only then when someone shows them the way to Christ, that it is the best news they have ever heard in his life. He then throws himself on Christ as his Saviour, and pleads for the assurance of salvation. It took John Bunyan eight years from the time he first threw himself upon Christ, until he received full assurance of salvation from the Holy Spirit.

This is why the way to salvation is a narrow gate and few there be who find it. This is because realising the depth and seriousness of sin and one's total unworthiness to receive anything from God is too difficult for many to consider, so they avoid that process and go the easy believer way in the hope that they will gain salvation anyway.
 
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watchman 2

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Yet we still don't know who here are the hypocrites because you make the claims, which is fine, but when asked to show scripture or proof you are correct with such accusations, the replies/answers to the questioning are no where to be found. Again either prove what you claim, or not, but until then there is no way I'm going try to debate what I think are empty, unproven claims/accusations...it would be fruitless to do so.
I don't understand why you are relating an objective discussion about whether or not faith alone in Christ is sufficient for justification subjectively to yourself, as if I am speaking directly about your standing with Christ.

The simple definition of a hypocrite is a person who says they are something they are not. Simple. The example I gave was a person who appears to be an angel at church but is a devil at home.

I drew the distinction between a person who has "got religion" through easy believerism, as if saying a prayer at the altar of a church actually gave them salvation. That's not faith in Christ at all. Salvation is not a matter of deciding to adopt the Christian religion, attend church, be involved in Christian work, live a moral life, be kind to animals, be concerned about the planet, and talk Christian talk. The same person could rise to become a deacon, pastor, or even a bishop! In actual fact, those things are not the core of embracing Christ, although they are the actions of a person who has embraced Christ - but they call all be the actions of a rank hypocrite as well!

Actually, and adulterer, murderer, and thief can all dress in the same three-piece suit as an honest, godly, genuine Christian believer, and so by appearance, one would not be able to tell them apart by appearances. Also, they can all be great church members and respected by all on Sundays at church, but their actions are very different when out of the public view. That is why hypocrites make every effort to appear to be very committed Christians, when, in reality, they are not.

The spooky thing is that we cannot tell the difference, because we cannot see into the heart of a person. Only God can.

It is impossible to be a genuine believer in Christ without coming to the full realisation of one's own absolute sinfulness, that he is a rebel, an enemy of God, a slave to sin, without hope, deserving of the full wrath of God and of a final future in hell. Also, there can be no salvation for the sinner unless there is a treaty between the sinner and God, involving the condition that the sinner puts his full faith and trust in the finished work of Christ and agrees to allow the Holy Spirit to take hold of his life so he can live for the glory of God.

If a person who thinks he has some good in him and some worthiness for God to accept him into the family of faith, which many who join the Christian do, and then wonder why it doesn't work satisfactorily for them, it is because he has come over the wall of easy believerism instead of through the narrow gate.

An "easy believer" will decide that the Christian life will be good for him, and he will saunter up to the altar, say a prayer and all will be well for him. But there will be no change of heart, and outside of the view of his fellow Christians, he will get on with his old life as before with its lusts. This is because he thinks he can have faith, which is not faith at all, but merely a mental belief and assent to the principles of Christianity.

The narrow gate is only shown to those who know they are absolute, hopeless, helpless sinners and enemies of God, deserving of wrath and hell. It is this realisation that causes a person to groan, pray, and cry out to God for mercy. It is only then when someone shows them the way to Christ, that it is the best news they have ever heard in his life. He then throws himself on Christ as his Saviour, and pleads for the assurance of salvation. It took John Bunyan eight years from the time he first threw himself upon Christ, until he received full assurance of salvation from the Holy Spirit.

This is why the way to salvation is a narrow gate and few there be who find it. This is because realising the depth and seriousness of sin and one's total unworthiness to receive anything from God is too difficult for many to consider, so they avoid that process and go the easy believer way in the hope that they will gain salvation anyway.[/QUOTE]

Hi Oscar.

I agree with some of your understandings, could you tell me how you see saving Faith fulfilled at the start of the salvation journey?
 
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Hi Oscar.

I agree with some of your understandings, could you tell me how you see saving Faith fulfilled at the start of the salvation journey?
Firstly, to get around any misunderstanding about predestination and election, I think these are mysteries and any real attempt to give hard and fast explanations of them falls short. Either we say that God has deliberately created people to eternally suffer in hell, which is monstrous and right against His nature; or we say that election is based solely on a person choosing to become a Christian without any other influences, which is the other extreme, and is unsatisfactory. Either way, a person might not have assurance of salvation because in the first instance he might not be elected and his Christian profession is in vain because as an unelected person he is going to hell anyway. And if everything depends on his choice alone, then having the idea that he could be saved today and lost tomorrow takes away his assurance.

As we have seen in many threads about this topic. predestination and election is a contentious issue, and, if possible, I want to scrub around it in my attempted answer to you. So this is what I know:

1. The invitation to come to Christ is open to all. This is clearly set out in many salvation verses. We know them and I won't bore you by quoting them.

2. When a person reads the Bible, it tells him about God, His nature, His ways, and the invitation to believe and receive the gospel. Hearing the Word through a preacher does basically the same thing.

3. The Holy Spirit uses the written and preached Word to cause the person to realise his lost state and that he is a woeful and miserable sinner. I believe that a full appreciation of this can come only through the influence of the Holy Spirit. It is interesting that Christian, in Pilgrims Progress, before he was directed to the narrow gate by Evangelist, read out of a book that made him desperately unhappy and made him sigh and cry, "What shall I do?"

This is why an evangelist needs to preach the moral law and the hopelessness of being able to keep it, and the eternal consequences of not being able to keep it. Paul says that it was the Law that made him realise that he was a slave to sin. When as a young man I worked in our local coffee bar ministry and quite a few unconverted folk said when encouraged to be saved, asked, "What am I to be saved from?" This shows me that the Holy Spirit needs to show such a person what they really do need to be saved from. The problem that leads to easy believerism is evangelists make the mistake of presenting the goodies of receiving Christ without seeking the power of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin to the seeker first. If there is no convicting work of the Holy Spirit in the seeker, he is likely to say, "So this bloke Jesus died on the cross and rose again, so what?" Or he might sign the decision card just to get rid of the evangelist bugging him about the need to become a Christian.

This is why I am so adamant about a person being convicted of his sinfulness and his deserving of hell before he can really see the gospel as good news for him and make a heart-felt commitment to Christ. Without conviction of sin, it is impossible for a person to become a genuine convert to Christ. All he will get is religion. Conviction of sin will make the sinner know that his heart of hearts has to change and only the Holy Spirit can do that.

4. Once having got to this stage, he must then put his whole trust in the salvation promises in God's Word and start praying and seeking God for a true conversion work of the Holy Spirit, resulting in assurance of salvation. It is not enough to just pray a sinner's prayer, start to attend church, and become involved in Christian activities. He must press in on a personal basis with God and wait on Him in prayer and the Word until the assurance comes, and the Holy Spirit will give that assurance only when that person is seeking God with all his heart and is not to rest content until he knows that he is really converted and his heart of hearts is genuinely changed to love God and to surrender to the Holy Spirit to work holiness in him.

When a person has got to that point, he has just passed through the narrow entrance gate. He has just got into the ball-park. He has started to live in the Spirit, because the Spirit is living in him. Now, he has to start walking in the Spirit, and the rest of his life-journey with the Lord is in front of him.
 
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Firstly, to get around any misunderstanding about predestination and election, I think these are mysteries and any real attempt to give hard and fast explanations of them falls short. Either we say that God has deliberately created people to eternally suffer in hell, which is monstrous and right against His nature; or we say that election is based solely on a person choosing to become a Christian without any other influences, which is the other extreme, and is unsatisfactory. Either way, a person might not have assurance of salvation because in the first instance he might not be elected and his Christian profession is in vain because as an unelected person he is going to hell anyway. And if everything depends on his choice alone, then having the idea that he could be saved today and lost tomorrow takes away his assurance.

As we have seen in many threads about this topic. predestination and election is a contentious issue, and, if possible, I want to scrub around it in my attempted answer to you. So this is what I know:

1. The invitation to come to Christ is open to all. This is clearly set out in many salvation verses. We know them and I won't bore you by quoting them.

2. When a person reads the Bible, it tells him about God, His nature, His ways, and the invitation to believe and receive the gospel. Hearing the Word through a preacher does basically the same thing.

3. The Holy Spirit uses the written and preached Word to cause the person to realise his lost state and that he is a woeful and miserable sinner. I believe that a full appreciation of this can come only through the influence of the Holy Spirit. It is interesting that Christian, in Pilgrims Progress, before he was directed to the narrow gate by Evangelist, read out of a book that made him desperately unhappy and made him sigh and cry, "What shall I do?"

This is why an evangelist needs to preach the moral law and the hopelessness of being able to keep it, and the eternal consequences of not being able to keep it. Paul says that it was the Law that made him realise that he was a slave to sin. When as a young man I worked in our local coffee bar ministry and quite a few unconverted folk said when encouraged to be saved, asked, "What am I to be saved from?" This shows me that the Holy Spirit needs to show such a person what they really do need to be saved from. The problem that leads to easy believerism is evangelists make the mistake of presenting the goodies of receiving Christ without seeking the power of the Holy Spirit to bring conviction of sin to the seeker first. If there is no convicting work of the Holy Spirit in the seeker, he is likely to say, "So this bloke Jesus died on the cross and rose again, so what?" Or he might sign the decision card just to get rid of the evangelist bugging him about the need to become a Christian.

This is why I am so adamant about a person being convicted of his sinfulness and his deserving of hell before he can really see the gospel as good news for him and make a heart-felt commitment to Christ. Without conviction of sin, it is impossible for a person to become a genuine convert to Christ. All he will get is religion. Conviction of sin will make the sinner know that his heart of hearts has to change and only the Holy Spirit can do that.

4. Once having got to this stage, he must then put his whole trust in the salvation promises in God's Word and start praying and seeking God for a true conversion work of the Holy Spirit, resulting in assurance of salvation. It is not enough to just pray a sinner's prayer, start to attend church, and become involved in Christian activities. He must press in on a personal basis with God and wait on Him in prayer and the Word until the assurance comes, and the Holy Spirit will give that assurance only when that person is seeking God with all his heart and is not to rest content until he knows that he is really converted and his heart of hearts is genuinely changed to love God and to surrender to the Holy Spirit to work holiness in him.

When a person has got to that point, he has just passed through the narrow entrance gate. He has just got into the ball-park. He has started to live in the Spirit, because the Spirit is living in him. Now, he has to start walking in the Spirit, and the rest of his life-journey with the Lord is in front of him.

You make salvation so difficult for the unbeliever.

How do you think the prodigal son returned to the Father, did he went thru as complicated a process as what you have explained? How did the Father respond to his attempt to return?
 
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You make salvation so difficult for the unbeliever.

How do you think the prodigal son returned to the Father, did he went thru as complicated a process as what you have explained? How did the Father respond to his attempt to return?
It is difficult. That is why the Scripture says that the way to eternal life is narrow and few there be who find it.

Look at the mega-churches that draw the big crowds. Listen to and view what they preach. They preach that Jesus can be your friend, who will heal and make you healthy and make you prosperous. They will have exciting services with great performance-based music to cater for the emotions and that nice feeling of well-being. Jesus had great crowds following Him because of the healings, and the miracles where 5000 were fed.

But as soon as Jesus said that people need to identify with His death (ie: eat His flesh and drink His blood) most of the crowd left Him and melted away. Why? They were there for the goodies, but as soon as a real commitment was needed that might threaten the comfort zone and to be identified with a suffering and dying Saviour, they said, "No thanks! We want the good life. We don't want to know about death and tribulation".

You will find that the preaching of the gospel where to be a true disciple one has to be content with persecution, poverty, sickness, going hungry, and even death, because of their commitment to Jesus who died on the cross for their sins, and that the servant is no better than his Master, and that they might have to follow in His footsteps, even to death (as did all the Apostles except John), a church would be lucky to attract more than just a couple of hundred people to it.

We would all like to be like the apostle Paul, but would be put off when he describes what he had to go through in his commitment to Christ. He lists them all, and it is not pleasant reading.

That is why genuine believers are a minority, because most, although they enjoy their exciting religion full of promises of health, prosperity and happiness, they don't want to go down path where they might experience ill health, poverty, persecution, battles against Satan and his demons, and possibly having to give their lives for the faith, as many have done in Muslim and Communist countries.

Even today on CF I saw that a pastor in the Philippines was murdered because of his faith. How would you like to be a pastor in that country? Not many mega-churches having hallelujah hootenannys in Iran or Saudi Arabia. I wonder why? People would be too scared to go to those very public churches. Most true believers in those countries are underground and worship secretly and quietly just to keep themselves from being killed for their faith!

That is why genuine Christianity is a minority, because it takes a high level of courage, perseverance and commitment, even to the giving up of life to be a true believer in Christ.
 
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