I saw a good quote in my reading of John Flavell, a very well known Puritan divine, especially well known for his powerful evangelistic ministry. He said that teaching duty (that is, doing what God requires of us) through admonition is one things, but teaching duty by doing it is quite another. What I get from that is that many teach how we should do the things that improve holiness without actually following their own teaching; and there are others who teach holiness by example in their own lives. The latter is genuine, while the former is a hypocrite.
I can only think, I wish you'd a gotten more "from that"...like the whole picture.
Did you stop to think, the John you mention, was admonishing his readers when he told them that? Of course he was. He was doing exactly as you are now accusing me of, but it's OK for him, and he's not the hypocrite you are accusing me of being, because he gave you something to help shush those speaking the truth, while my doing exactly the same thing as he does, makes me a hypocrite? And you still have no idea what he does in his private life. Funny how we miss so much of the picture when it's not to our advantage to see it. Oh, and that's not to mention you have no idea what I do in my private life to be called a Pharisee, yet you are still pushing the idea. What is all that??
You said to "admonish" was to be a hypocrite, and while I can give you several reasons why that is dead wrong, I'll just leave it with the following. Not only does Christ/God admonish, and even threaten us with hell if we don't act as we should...but if anyone has a preacher/friend that doesn't admonish those who he feels is teaching a false doctrine that could not only damage others/themselves, but hurt them for eternity, then they need to change teachers/preachers, and get some new friends, some that care enough to get real with things.
Several questions:
Aren't you admonishing me? So that begs the question, is that OK for you, or are you also the hypocrite you accused me of being? Please tell me who exactly is the hypocrite you base your claims on, and why, because it is fast becoming very confusing who is who..
Do you and your admonishing John have rights some of us do not? If so, why? To me, it's clear we do not have right so speak up when our doctrine disagrees. Funny how that works, ain't it?
We should go by Jesus example, admonish/defend the word of God, AND live right. When the word of God reads differently than what is being taught, we need to not sit on our hands and do/say nothing.
To me, that's a given, yet you say, if we do so, we are hypocrites? Is not the real reason for calling others that, to discredit them because they don't teach the same as you? while you have never proven your way is correct, and never will even attempt it in a question answer debate, because you know better? That's the idea I get.
Jesus taught things that were really impossible to perfectly obey in our own strength.
Who here ever claimed we had to perfectly obey in order to get to heaven?
So, if the Pharisees, followed the Law more perfectly than we could ever do, then it would be impossible for us to exceed their righteousness regardless of all our efforts to be holier than them. That's the whole point. If the personal righteousness of the Pharisees was not good enough, then ours would be absolutely nowhere near it! So, the righteousness that pleases God has to on a different basis.
No, it does not have to be on "a different basis", you are making that up, and if not, prove it's a fact...fair enough? It's on the basis we sincerely try to be good, and he's working with, and forgiving us when we mess up because we are sincerely trying, just as a good parent would treat their child...so easy to understand. It's much simpler than deceitful twists and turns designed to make a way seem right when it is not right. You want to "please God"? Then listen:
John 14:15 "
If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.". Seems to me, if reasonable effort to keep the commandments pleases Jesus, and he feels that's what
shows we truly love him, then that's what we should do. Am I correct, or not, if not, why?
Many can adopt Christianity through their minds and emotions, and appear to be committed Christians, but their hearts may be unchanged, and remaining as evil as they ever were.
And as much as one may try to reject it "minds, emotions" AND
actions are along the lines of what is expected. Action/works are what shows if we are sincere or not. Our mind can pretend, and our emotions can be no more than a show, or all that nothing but talk, while works prove their heart has changed. As many as may fight that fact, I think they know perfecly well that is true. Faith without works is dead, how many times do we have to say it? It really is in the bible, and it doesn't need a half page of talk to make it something else, it's already just what it is...simply.
My view is when a person has experienced true and deep conviction of his personal sinfulness and ruined state, when he falls on Christ through faith and receives mercy and grace, the last thing he would want to do is to return to his former state. He will keep holding fast to Christ by faith all his life. Such a person will have eternal security, because his sole security will be in Christ alone and that will never change.
And there it is, another cornerstone for the "Always saved" argument. as in:
"We must be saved because we are presently, and there is just no way anyone would turn away from salvation, hence we remain saved" when there is nothing further from the truth. Yet many just on CF alone makes the same exact claim...why? It's not because they got it from the bible, but because so many have chosen to believe what they are taught by men, here and elsewhere.
Again, I will prove my point..show me
why that is your view, and using scripture to do so, please?
The temptations of the world take people from God all the time, the same reason some just don't bother with salvation to begin with. It's like saying, "Well, Ill give it a try", and they later decide it's not for them, as in:
Mathew 13:18
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
or
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
If that doesn't convince you, can you please show me the scripture that says the opposite of those verses, and that we can't actually fall away/lose salvation? Should be a simple as answering any question where you are correct.
No one is saying that we should do just as we like.
Except for the following comment, I'm not going to answer this and your few paragraphs following it, and simply because you did the same as people do so often here. Hidden somewhere in a comment is something that is assumed truth, when it was never proven true.
See, no one anywhere accused anyone of saying we "should" do as we like, they only say we can do what we like and still go to heaven/can't lose salvation. That may seem like only a small twist of the truth to some, but it's what all that follows in your comment rides upon, meaning none of it's going to be viable because, as I say, no one made the claim.
Sigh*
The Pharisees were the most committed Bible believers and teachers of their time. Not all of them were bad people. Some were good, upright, honest, and sincere. I think that Paul sincerely followed what he believed was God's way as he saw it in the Scriptures he had. He was not a hypocrite. He lived what he believed.
My definition of a hypocrite is one who teaches others to be holy, but does not intend to apply what he teaches in his own life. It is like a preacher who teaches against alcohol and domestic violence, and then goes home, gets drunk and beats up his wife and children. He is an angel at church but a devil at home.
I don't teach holiness when I have opportunity to preach, because I know I am not a holy person. I would be a hypocrite if I taught that people needed to be perfect in their compliance with the commands of Jesus, because I have difficulties complying with them myself. But I will teach total faith, dependence and confidence in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit to develop sanctification in us day by day, because I depend totally on Christ to do His workmanship in me.
Yet, once again, you didn't answer my questions. Do as you wish, but if you want a debate, that has to happen. IOW if you can't show me where I'm wrong and you are right, the debate is useless, and all we have is what you call your view, an no proof the view is valid.
Oh, and I should add, who here teaches what you claim, in that they need "to be perfect in their compliance with the commands of Jesus" ... will you please show us, and more importantly, if you cannot show us, why do you make the claim?
QUOTE="Oscarr, post: 74209151, member: 105812"]I think we need to be blunt when dealing with hypocrisy,[/QUOTE]
Yet we still don't know who here are the hypocrites because you make the claims, which is fine, but when asked to show scripture or proof you are correct with such accusations, the replies/answers to the questioning are no where to be found. Again either prove what you claim, or not, but until then there is no way I'm going try to debate what I think are empty, unproven claims/accusations...it would be fruitless to do so.