Faith Alone

Do you believe that faith alone justifies?

  • Yes

    Votes: 25 65.8%
  • No

    Votes: 13 34.2%

  • Total voters
    38

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Ephesians 2:10. Your question makes no sense. There’s no salvation then according to your equation

#1. Ephesians 2:8 says we are initially or ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ.

#2. Ephesians 2:9 is saying that we are not initially or ultimately saved by Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. Ephesians 2:9 is referring to a man directed work because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in themselves in doing (Which is not something I believe in doing).

#3. Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and it talks about an entirely different kind of work (God directed works done through the believer as a part of the Sanctification Process). Ephesians 2:10 is talking about the kind of work that follows after one being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. Ephesians 2:10 is a different work vs. the work mentioned in Ephesians 2:9.

#4. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 3, and Romans 4:1-4 is referring to Initial Salvation or in how one is ultimately saved. Paul was arguing against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." This is why Paul appeared to speak against how we are not saved by the Law or works. See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Ephesians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, etc. A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Christians during that time that they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. But Paul was saying that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. Paul was not arguing against the necessity of Sanctification or holy living by the Spirit (Which is a part of the salvation process). Romans 8:13 gives us a clear indication that if we live one way (after sin or the flesh) we will die, but if we put to death sin out of our lives by the Spirit, we will live (live spiritually). The choice is up to us on which way we want to live for the Lord.
 
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I take issue with the premise behind the question, so I cannot give an answer according to the wording of the question and the wording of the OP.

I will say one thing:

When St Paul uses the term "faith", he is using that as short-hand for "faith in Christ", and in the context of his epistles, that refers to "being in Christ" as opposed to "being in Moses" or "being in the Torah", so to speak. So yes, being in Christ justifies us, not being in something else. I cannot attempt to come to God by the ritual observance of the Torah and expect to be justified. I must be in Christ, and no other.

I believe the commands of Jesus are different than the commands of Moses.
For the law came by Moses, and grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Jesus was making many changes to the Law even before the cross.
 
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Jason your understanding of sanctification is that of popery. Sanctification is a means to ones justification. This is why you insist that one can lose eternal life in Christ

I am not going to sugarcoat the truth of what God's Word plainly teaches.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen to salvation through:

#1. Belief of the Truth.
#2. Sanctification of the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 says we have to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh (sin) (within Christ Jesus) in order to not be under the Condemnation.

Paul says we can deny God by a lack of works (Titus 1:16).

Paul says we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling
(Philippians 2:12).
 
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Oldmantook

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But Jesus said the sum total of the Torah is tied to those 2 "greatest" commandments.
What does "not abolish" mean? It means the Law still exists but Jesus is the fulfillment of it which in practical application means loving thy neighbor as thyself.
 
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watchman 2

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#1. Ephesians 2:8 says we are initially or ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Christ.

#2. Ephesians 2:9 is saying that we are not initially or ultimately saved by Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. Ephesians 2:9 is referring to a man directed work because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in themselves in doing (Which is not something I believe in doing).

#3. Ephesians 2:10 switches gears and it talks about an entirely different kind of work (God directed works done through the believer as a part of the Sanctification Process). Ephesians 2:10 is talking about the kind of work that follows after one being saved by God's grace through faith in Christ. Ephesians 2:10 is a different work vs. the work mentioned in Ephesians 2:9.

#4. Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Galatians 3, and Romans 4:1-4 is referring to Initial Salvation or in how one is ultimately saved. Paul was arguing against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism." This is why Paul appeared to speak against how we are not saved by the Law or works. See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24, Ephesians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, Romans 3:1, etc. A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive Christians during that time that they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. But Paul was saying that we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. Paul was not arguing against the necessity of Sanctification or holy living by the Spirit (Which is a part of the salvation process). Romans 8:13 gives us a clear indication that if we live one way (after sin or the flesh) we will die, but if we put to death sin out of our lives by the Spirit, we will live (live spiritually). The choice is up to us on which way we want to live for the Lord.

In #1, how do you understand the very beginning of the salvation journey concerning how we fulfill " through Faith in Christ."?
 
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I think we enter Christ's fold by faith. Then we must live a life worthy of it, or eternal life is in question.
The problem is, as we all know, that we don't live a life that is of the standard that is worthy of our Christian profession. God's standards are absolute and non-negotiable. If our dependence for eternal life is our own worthiness, we would not make it, because we would have to live a perfect life, without one single fault, from the age of accountability to the day we die. And who is able to accomplish that? Paul didn't think that anyone could, because he said in Romans, "There is none righteous; no, not one!" So if personal worthiness is the measure to receive eternal life, then no one can be saved!
 
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Danthemailman

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James 2:24 says otherwise.
James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
 
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fhansen

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The problem is, as we all know, that we don't live a life that is of the standard that is worthy of our Christian profession. God's standards are absolute and non-negotiable. If our dependence for eternal life is our own worthiness, we would not make it, because we would have to live a perfect life, without one single fault, from the age of accountability to the day we die. And who is able to accomplish that? Paul didn't think that anyone could, because he said in Romans, "There is none righteous; no, not one!" So if personal worthiness is the measure to receive eternal life, then no one can be saved!
That's not God's requirement in all this. He'd prefer perfection and yet knows it won't happen in this life. So He gives the grace to overcome sin and practice righteousness, to live that worthy life, and then judges us based on how we did with the grace and knowledge and time given. This coincides with the judgment rendered in Matt 25:31-46, based on what was or wasn't done for "the least of these". This makes sense of Jesus telling the rich young man he must keep the commandments to inherit eternal life, while still challenging him to perfection if he's willing to take it even further. At the end of the day God judges by the heart, such that the Church can teach, quoting a 16th century believer, "At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."

We need to be oriented in that direction, making progress in growing in righteousness as we "invest our talents". Otherwise, if man is not still obligated in some way to be righteous, to be who he was created to be, then there's no real difference at the end of the day between himself and a non-believer, other than our self-assessed level of faith, as if that, by itself, was some big deal. Faith is meant to produce something, something better than how we began. God would have nothing less for us. And he can certainly make it happen. That's the purpose of the New Covenant, in fact, to unite us with Him so justice may reign again in man's heart. "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5
 
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In #1, how do you understand the very beginning of the salvation journey concerning how we fulfill " through Faith in Christ."?

In Justification, or Initial Salvation within Ephesians 2:8, and Galatians 3:26: Generally a person receives Christ as their Savior, but the Scriptures say that a person can also simply believe in Christ's name for salvation, as well.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,..." (1 John 3:23).

Under the full revelation of God's plan of salvation for the New Covenant: This would also include the believing the gospel (Which is believing in Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf), as well. Romans 1:16 says,

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16).

Repentance is another thing that a believer will need to eventually come to a revelation to (within God's Word), as well (as a part of salvation).

Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says, “God… now commands all men everywhere to repent”

Repentance = Seeking forgiveness with the Lord by way of prayer.
The fruits of repentance is forsaking sin, and doing good works, living holy by God's power, etc.

Jesus says, repent or perish (Luke 13:3).

After a person is saved by God's grace, they then need to then enter into the Sanctification Process by God working in them to do good works and to live holy (Ephesians 2:10). This is the second work of God that plays a part in the salvation process of a believer (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13). If not, then we can live like devils by merely having a belief alone on Jesus. But James condemns this kind of belief. He says even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).
 
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James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

If so, then James is saying that one is not justified by faith in relation to salvation. One word is used for "justified" here and it tied to both "faith" and "works." Surely you believe we are justified by faith in relation to salvation, but when it comes to being justified by works (in relation to salvation), you think the word changes or it transforms in some way to be different.
 
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Danthemailman

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If so, then James is saying that one is not justified by faith in relation to salvation. One word is used for "justified" here and it tied to both "faith" and "works." Surely you believe we are justified by faith in relation to salvation, but when it comes to being justified by works (in relation to salvation), you think the word changes or it transforms in some way to be different.
Did you not read what I shared with you in post #127? You may want to read my post again.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You seem to give the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous." o_O
 
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watchman 2

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In Justification, or Initial Salvation within Ephesians 2:8, and Galatians 3:26: Generally a person receives Christ as their Savior, but the Scriptures say that a person can also simply believe in Christ's name for salvation, as well.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (John 1:12).

"And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ,..." (1 John 3:23).

Under the full revelation of God's plan of salvation for the New Covenant: This would also include the believing the gospel (Which is believing in Christ's death and resurrection on our behalf), as well. Romans 1:16 says,

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." (Romans 1:16).

Repentance is another thing that a believer will need to eventually come to a revelation to (within God's Word), as well (as a part of salvation).

Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says, “God… now commands all men everywhere to repent”

Repentance = Seeking forgiveness with the Lord by way of prayer.
The fruits of repentance is forsaking sin, and doing good works, living holy by God's power, etc.

Jesus says, repent or perish (Luke 13:3).

After a person is saved by God's grace, they then need to then enter into the Sanctification Process by God working in them to do good works and to live holy (Ephesians 2:10). This is the second work of God that plays a part in the salvation process of a believer (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13). If not, then we can live like devils by merely having a belief alone on Jesus. But James condemns this kind of belief. He says even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

The words believe, believer, and believing, are mistranslations.

So that is what your understanding of Faith and faithing are being built on.
 
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Danthemailman

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If so, then James is saying that one is not justified by faith in relation to salvation. One word is used for "justified" here and it tied to both "faith" and "works." Surely you believe we are justified by faith in relation to salvation, but when it comes to being justified by works (in relation to salvation), you think the word changes or it transforms in some way to be different.
How about a little CONTEXT:

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved/accounted as righteous "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. So if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :)
 
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Guojing

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What does "not abolish" mean? It means the Law still exists but Jesus is the fulfillment of it which in practical application means loving thy neighbor as thyself.

So Long as you understand gentiles have nothing to do with the law, we are at the same page
 
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Danthemailman

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You mean like James 2:24, 1 John 1:7, and Hebrews 5:9?
In regards to 1 John 1:7, in 1 John 1:6, we read - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with -- "children of the devil."

In regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.
 
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How about a little CONTEXT:

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved/accounted as righteous "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. So if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :)

First, again, that does not undo the problem of the word "justified" being used in two different ways to support your belief here. You believe the word "justified" in relation to faith is dealing with salvation, but you conveniently do not believe this is the case with the same word used in the same sentence involving works. So you are not being consistent here with the word "justified." Second, James says in the first chapter this:

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." (James 1:12).​

So you have to endure temptation to receive the crown of life. James also says,

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls."
(James 1:21).​

James says we need to do two things that is able to save our souls.

#1. Lay apart all filthiness, superfluity of naughtiness (Which is no doubt sinful things).

#2. Receive with meekness the engrafted Word (The Living Word).
 
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How about a little CONTEXT:

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no resulting evidential works (to validate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved/accounted as righteous "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple! :oldthumbsup:

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree) or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. So if someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.*

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :)

There is no harmony in this kind of belief. To say that works do not save and yet a saving faith will always have works is contradictory. If a true faith will always have works then we must conclude that works play a part in our salvation because we cannot have a saving faith without works.
 
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In regards to 1 John 1:7, in 1 John 1:6, we read - If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of children of the devil. Walking in the light is descriptive of children of God. Only those who are saved/believers are in the light.

Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness?

Ephesians 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light. Children of the devil walk in darkness, not in the light. Children of God walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.

In 1 John 2:9, we read - He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. In verse 11 - But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes.

*Compare with 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, (compare with 1 John 1:6 - does not practice the truth) nor is he who does not love his brother. *Notice that "walks in darkness" and "hates his brother" is connected with -- "children of the devil."

In regards to Hebrews 5:9, who obeys Him? The saved or the lost? I often hear works-salvationists use this verse to try and support salvation by works. *Only believers have obeyed Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) in order to become saved and only believers obey Him after they have been saved through faith by practicing righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:9,10). *In either sense, only believers obey Him.

Unbelievers have not obeyed Him by refusing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) and without faith its impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6), so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much "so called" obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation based on works. *So in either sense, unbelievers do not obey Him.

James makes a point how we are justified by works before God because he uses Abraham sacrificing his son Isaac as an example. There were no men present to be justified before men when Abraham offered his son Isaac. By Abraham's obedience, God blessed Abraham in a great way. Just read again the story in Genesis and you will be able to check these facts for yourself. So this means that Abraham was justified by works before GOD and not men. This means his works had merit before GOD. For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19). That is what James compares a belief alone to. He says faith is dead if it has no works (James 2:17). A faith that has no works is like that of the faith of demons, and it is dead. That is the kind of faith that James condemns. So how can this kind of faith that has no works save? It cannot.
 
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Kenny'sID

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My point is that we would not greet a smelly drunk and treat him in the same way that we would treat a 'respectable' person (if we are being honest about it); therefore we would be discriminatory in the way we love people. Because this would be a violation of the commandment of Christ, it would show that we cannot follow His commandments from our own righteousness. That's why Jesus gave instructions that are basically impossible to follow. It is to show us that no matter how hard we try and sincerely resolve, we will always fall short of being able to perfectly comply with any moral law that is presented to us, either through the Commandments or the teaching of Jesus. If we could, then Jesus would have wasted His time dying for us on the cross, and God giving up His only Son to be our Saviour, a total waste.

I understood your point, all I'm saying is though some would treat them like you say, there are some that genuinely treat them like they would anyone else.

And I would have to disagree that Jesus's sole reason for telling us to obey is to show us we cannot. We are to obey just as he says. There's just no biblical backing to not sincerely trying to obey. That was my point about forgiveness if we fall short, but don't do as many around here do and go with the thought "we all sin, so we might as well just sin and not worry about it". Those that do that are just fooling themselves out of heaven, and all so they can do as they wish and still make it to heaven.

There are those on this forum who are telling us that we have to follow the commands of Jesus in order to be saved. What comes to mind is what Jesus said to the Pharisees: "You teach people not to commit adultery, while you yourselves commit adultery!" (my paraphrase). So these ones who insist on compliance with the Law and the commands of Jesus, don't comply themselves!

That may conveniently "come to mind" in order to serve your purpose, but saying those who say we must be in compliance to the law and follow Jesus commands in order to be saved is firstly, the way you put it, probably doesn't ever get said as you claim. What they really say is what we all know to be true...follow Jesus's commands but we will make mistakes and that's covered if we simply sincerely ask. I'll make my point by asking you to show me where anyone who said we must flat out keep Jesus's commands/comply to the law in order to be saved, precisely what you said they say. See it's those little parts you/OSAS leaves out in order to create a problem that isn't there, and to falsely make us the bad guy. That type thing happens all too often here, I'm always stating OSAS doesn't play fair, and that fact shows their heart. It's all about making OSAS ok no matter what we have to do.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not singling you out, many here do that. Another point is, since OSAS doesn't have to be good they won't, I see it all the time here by the way they carry themselves in argument, and the things they will do to try to do away with the truth.

Jesus made a huge effort by doing as God said he must in order to find out if we were sincere enough to live with them in paradise for ever. Point being, he didn't just say "do what you like, it's not going to hurt you a bit", and he didn't say it because he doesn't want a bunch of insincere heathens in heaven, and that fact, if it actually were a fact is what makes people into insincere heathens, they think it won't hurt their salvation, at least in their minds. Believing we can do as we like, does nothing but hinder our chances. And no, I'm not being a Pharisee there, it should go without saying, if I do those things I'll be in the same boat as anyone else.

Here is another of those twists...You say we are like the Pharisees, but why? What exactly did we, or whoever your accusing, do? You'd like to think those who teach something you may not like, we're like the Pharisees, when you have no idea who here is doing what, that's another creation. It's just another ploy to try to make us look bad in your own minds and to others, and in turn make it appear what we teach is wrong since we are a Pharisee. How do you know they don't make an effort, and actually comply where you indicate they do not? What was the tip off, because you want to believe it or because we actually do something to make you believe we are? Maybe you can show us who and why they meet the criteria the be a Pharisee? Sure there are people like that, else Christ would not have said it, but seems to me your trying to make is seem a general rule here, as in, anyone who simply tries to convey what they believe is true, is now a Pharisee, meaning they are bad, and what we teach is bad, when in reality there zero basis for the claim...just as there was zero basis for saying anyone here says we have to be compliant to the law while they actually say something quite differently.

You didn't seem to mind being blunt accusing people of being a Pharisee and such, and FWIW, I'm not the least bit offended, but I hope you can deal with my simply being blunt.
 
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Did you not read what I shared with you in post #127? You may want to read my post again.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

You seem to give the word "justified" a broad brushed definition of "accounted as righteous." o_O

So you are saying that "justified" is not related to salvation or it is related to salvation? Either way, it does not help you. If you say that "justified" is not related to salvation, you will then have to admit that "being justified by faith" does not deal with salvation (Which contradicts other Scripture verses that suggests this; For example Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ"). If you say that the word "justified" is related to salvation, then you must conclude that this one word is referring to faith AND works. Either way, you are faced with a conundrum.
 
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